Home › Forums › Once Upon a Time › General discussion and theories › The Captain Swan thread!
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August 14, 2014 at 8:36 pm #280134surayyaParticipant
Getting back to the Hook sacrificing his ship topic, and I hope I’m not rehashing anything anyone already brought up (if I am, sorry in advance), I have to laugh at the expressed point that some people make that Hook was just being selfish. You know, the argument could be made that by Hook giving up his ship he was the true hero of 3B. That action in of itself was the catalyst for the curse being broken. The fact is that had he not traded his ship, Emma would never had gone back to SB with Henry and Regina would not have been able to use her white magic to defeat the WW. Sure, Hook traded the JR for another chance with Emma, but if he were truly selfish he would have stayed in NY and tried to ingratiate himself in her and Henry’s life (that I would have loved to see, if not only of the comedic blunders of Hook trying to fit in a big city). Instead, he brought her to SB because by his own admission , her family needed her. His home is gone and it was the only thing of value he had. The chipped cup, although a powerful symbol of love was never someones home, and neither was the Yellow Bug or the Swan necklace so I don’t get the comparisons to those objects to the value of the JR and what it meant for Hook to give it up. On the other hand, Neal is hailed as a hero. Why? Because for purely selfish reasons he brought the DO back because he felt that was his only shot at getting back to Henry and Emma (and in no way shape or form was he planning on ever trying to get into Emma’s pants because apparently Neals’ love transcends Taco Time). Neal saved the town by giving them the WW’s name. The same WW who would not have had the power to do all that damage had she not had control over the DO. Thanks Neal. Snowing should have just named their kid Killy. Okay, rant over. Happy Thursday everyone!!!
Agree 1000%
I still would have not seen Neal as someone right for Emma( written the way he is). Even if they were thogether again, it would not work. I think they would be miserable in the end
Yes, I fall into this camp as well.
[adrotate group="5"]August 14, 2014 at 8:47 pm #280136surayyaParticipantNeal was a generally likeable guy but there were two instances where he was almost written a bit too OOC: Rolandgate and bringing back Rumple. Whether that was an attempt to show a Rumple streak in him or not, I don’t think even Rumple would do what Neal did such as using an innocent child as bait. When Rumple had to use Roland against Robin, it was against his will but he never would have done that of his own free will.
See to me, it “almost seems OOC” Only IF his actions towards Emma (aka Jail, abandonment, his treatment of her in S2) have been “excused”. The writing was on the wall even back in S1- I dont think Neal fans really truly took to heart that Neal has always been written as the person who cemented Emma’s elephant sized trust issues. They loved the actor & Rumple, so ‘forgave’ Neal his actions- despite the direction of the story.
Neal was shown to have a selfish, cowardly streak right from the start & it reared it’s head on a number of occasions, we’ve discussed them many times here- yes, sure he had a change of heart & went back to the apartment to make sure his father didnt kill Emma for breaking her deal with him & he stepped up to be Henry’s father- but that is 2 instances in a long list of not so great actions ie. sending her to jail, abandoning her a number of times, belittling Emma & demeaning her skills/talent, taking her to task for tracking him down, when it was him who had wronged her, his double standards towards others etc. The problem is SF/NF fans gave him a pass & put a more positive spin on these not so great actions actions- they excused them as acceptable or o.k despite the direction of the story telling, so come S3 all the smaller slips didnt count in their eyes & his bigger slips into even ‘less than stellar’ actions seemed to come out of nowhere & were OOC for them- yet here in the CS thread none of us where surprised at all- we saw it coming from way back in S2- I remember thinking they were going to set Neal up as the next DO in S2 & S3 & I wasnt the only one who felt that way… that wasnt because he was Rumple’s son or we didnt want him with Emma, it was purely because he was written with the glimpses of darkness/nastiness & the potential to do very cowardly & ‘dark’ things right from the get go, as was proven in S3, we just didnt put him on a pedestal & refuse to see his actions for what they were.
I think many of us saw Hook as darkness working towards lightness & Neal as lightness working its way towards darkness, which put people off of shipping him with Emma.
August 14, 2014 at 8:55 pm #280137surayyaParticipantI wanted to add something to the ship thing, not only was the JR valuable to Hook, sentimentally, but also in terms of currency to actually manage to get a bean with it. The JR is well sought after. Blackbeard wasn’t going to give her back. She’s made from enchanted wood – I can imagine that’s quite valuable these days since the Blue Fairy used the last enchanted tree for the wardrobe. She’s the fastest vessel in all the realms. And wouldn’t have been called the Jewel of the Realm for nothing. So in terms of being something with an actual value it’s lucky Hook had her, otherwise I don’t think he would have got a bean so easily. As sentimentally valuable as a chipped cup or a swan pendant are they would never be able to be traded as a useful commodity. One bean for something as valuable and useful as the JR seems like a very cheap trade to me. He could have traded that ship for absolutely anything, but all he needed was a bean so that’s all he wanted for her. Virtually three lifetimes worth of memories, a home, something with an actual tangible value all traded away for a glimmer of hope.
Perfectly said, I couldnt agree more, I wanted to make a similar point, but dont need to now- you said it so much better than I could have.
It’s simply convenient for haters to forget the facts in favor of their septic head cannons. They are in reality watching the same show, but their insistence on twisting the show to meet their head cannons morph the story into a totally different one from cannon.August 14, 2014 at 9:00 pm #280138surayyaParticipantOh, I wonder if Killian traded the JR with Knave or Ana or someone in WL- that could be a way to get Knave to SB & make Bo very happy 😉 lol
August 14, 2014 at 9:04 pm #280139surayyaParticipantNaww, JMo expanded on Emma keeping a memento of Graham:
. @gozdeuca A common theme that came up in the memoirs that I read written by people who had beed raised in the foster system, was that they held onto small significant objects that they kept with them their whole lives. Graham was extremely significant to Emma and I wanted to find something she could keep with her in memory of him. The shoelace was something that @jamiedornan and I came up with while chatting about this idea. His boots, missing one lace, are still in Emma’s office in the sherif station as well. #askjen #uglyducklings
I just love getting insights like these about the characters- Emma also has Killian’s scarf (from the smoldering hand bandaging) in her office draw doesnt she?
August 14, 2014 at 9:07 pm #280140ellemo78ParticipantI think many of us saw Hook as darkness working towards lightness & Neal as lightness working its way towards darkness, which put people off of shipping him with Emma.
I never thought of it before, but that actually makes a lot of sense. I like that. That’s how I’m going to see him from here on in. If Hook can be classified as a villain for being so self serving to gain his revenge, then it’s quite apt for him to call Neal a villain for being so self serving in bringing the DO back for his own ends; sacrificing his own father to the WW’s control for his own purposes. That’s quite horrible.
If one is to engage with the primordial forces of darkness, one must expect a little social awkwardness
August 14, 2014 at 9:21 pm #280143Jenna_BParticipantHonestly, I’ve never really thought of Neal as being OOC in any of his decisions. He knee jerks; it’s just what he does. It’s his primary flaw. It’s this trait that makes me only somewhat be able to reconcile the first really terrible decision we see Neal make – letting August talk him into abandoning Emma and allowing her to go to jail.
One thing I find interestingly similar is how both Neal and Hook’s actions are the extreme ends of the spectrum, and rarely ever land in the middle, or safe, zone. Honest, righteous Killian loses his brother thanks to his king, and so he becomes the total antithesis – a pirate. He acts somewhat ambivalent to Emma in S2, but it’s obvious he’s covering his deep attraction to this woman who he both understands completely and is totally baffled by. Hence when he does fall in love, he FALLS IN LOVE.
So…why can people forgive one character’s sins and not the other? No idea. I don’t see Neal as the angel to Hook’s devil – far from it. Just because one dresses like a pirate and the other like…well, a hobo…what makes one, in my opinion, ‘right’ for Emma, and the other ‘wrong’ for her, is their actions toward her. Neal ‘let’ her go to jail ‘for her own good’ so she could be come the savior….huh? On the other hand, Killian gives up literally everything but the clothes on his back to get to her. And he does this knowing at best she’s not going to remember him. And he does this because he knows she needs her family and to help them as much as he’s needed her the year they were in the EF. Not because he had any real belief that by getting back to Emma meant he would get in her pants.
August 14, 2014 at 9:51 pm #280146Epona_610ParticipantI wanted to add something to the ship thing, not only was the JR valuable to Hook, sentimentally, but also in terms of currency to actually manage to get a bean with it. The JR is well sought after. Blackbeard wasn’t going to give her back. She’s made from enchanted wood – I can imagine that’s quite valuable these days since the Blue Fairy used the last enchanted tree for the wardrobe. She’s the fastest vessel in all the realms. And wouldn’t have been called the Jewel of the Realm for nothing. So in terms of being something with an actual value it’s lucky Hook had her, otherwise I don’t think he would have got a bean so easily. As sentimentally valuable as a chipped cup or a swan pendant are they would never be able to be traded as a useful commodity. One bean for something as valuable and useful as the JR seems like a very cheap trade to me. He could have traded that ship for absolutely anything, but all he needed was a bean so that’s all he wanted for her. Virtually three lifetimes worth of memories, a home, something with an actual tangible value all traded away for a glimmer of hope.
Perfectly said, I couldnt agree more, I wanted to make a similar point, but dont need to now- you said it so much better than I could have. It’s simply convenient for haters to forget the facts in favor of their septic head cannons. They are in reality watching the same show, but their insistence on twisting the show to meet their head cannons morph the story into a totally different one from cannon.
I was literally just about to post something exactly like that too! I’ll just quick add that it’s also like giving up your house and car—your most valuable assets—and your means to make a living (perhaps not a legitimate living, but that’s a different discussion) for something that, once used, has no lasting monetary value. That’s kind of a big deal.
I also agree with you guys on the whole Neal thing, especially that it’s super awkward that they named their baby after him. I hope they come up with a nickname or something.
August 14, 2014 at 10:29 pm #280148surayyaParticipantOne thing I find interestingly similar is how both Neal and Hook’s actions are the extreme ends of the spectrum, and rarely ever land in the middle, or safe, zone. Honest, righteous Killian loses his brother thanks to his king, and so he becomes the total antithesis – a pirate. He acts somewhat ambivalent to Emma in S2, but it’s obvious he’s covering his deep attraction to this woman who he both understands completely and is totally baffled by. Hence when he does fall in love, he FALLS IN LOVE.
I totally agree- I wrote this on another site as the bottom line between why I ship CS over SF:
End result of Neal’s worst actions with Emma = Emma with even bigger, fully cemented trust issues-that prevent her from loving or trusting anyone for 28yrs, but eventually finds her family as a ‘bright side’.
End result of Hook’s worst actions with Emma = Emma & princesses find the magical squid ink they are looking for & Emma realises, perhaps for the 1st time, how her not letting go of the past can & will directly affect her future if she lets it.
& this is where the shipping glasses come into play- many SF fans dont really consider Neal as he is written or take the outcomes of his actions seriously, they only seem to consider him as what they want him to be- Emma’s one & only TL & that is where the problems lie. If you actually take a step back & really just focus on the story telling rather than characters personal/romantic relationships- it gets pretty darn clear where the story is going early on & why.August 14, 2014 at 10:37 pm #280149surayyaParticipant
The end has the CS stuff -
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