Home › Forums › Once Upon a Time › Season Two › 2×05 "The Doctor" › Thoughts on magic and science in "The Doctor"
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November 1, 2012 at 12:20 am #135221timespacerParticipant
Here are some thoughts (some new and some that I previously posted elsewhere) that occurred to me after seeing Dr. Frankenstein’s statement that his worlds science is more powerful than the Enchanted Forest’s magic. It makes sense that science would never really develop in a world with magic. Science depends upon recognizing repeatable processes in nature which eventually lead to finding natural laws that control the behavior of the world. In a world with magic, there are no natural laws – or rather, what laws there are can so often be changed by magic that identifying natural laws would be very difficult. In our world, if I throw a rock in the air, I can study how it falls and eventually understand it because it follows the same law every time. But Regina could make the rock fall faster or slower, or even just keep rising forever. So who would spend time trying to identify laws which could be changed at a whim, especially when studying magic could produce more immediate results (at a price)?
Of course, Mary Shelley/s original Frankenstein, like the legend of Faust on which it was based, really was more about magic than science. The lasting image she gave us of the “Mad Scientist”, working alone to master secret powers is really the image of the wizard controlling secret knowledge. Shelley never acknowledged that real science is a process that depends upon the open exchange of ideas and independent verification. One person working alone in a lab is not really doing science, by the modern definition.
Of course, the modern Scientific Method developed slowly over centuries, from the empiricism of Francis Bacon to its culmination in the work of Isaac Newton. But in the beginning, scientific knowledge was seen as something mysterious and known only to a few “philosophers.” One of the earliest figures in this transition may have inspired one of OUAT’s character names.
The name Henry has a strong connection to the history of magical themes when expressed in its German form, Heinrich. Heinrich Cornelius Agrippa (Sometimes given in Latinized form as “Henricus”) was a sixteenth century German theologian who wrote several influential works on magic (Coincidently for a show which features such strong female characters as Emma, Regina, and Snow White, he also wrote a book which argued for the moral and theological superiority of women, entitled Declamatio De Nobilitate Et Praecellentia Foeminei Sexus, or in English Declaration on the Nobility and Preeminence of the Female Sex). His book De Incertitudine Et Vanitate Scientiarum Atque Artium Declamatio Invectiva (Declaration Attacking the Uncertainty and Vanity of the Sciences and the Arts ) revived some of the ancient Greek ideas of skepticism toward unverifiable claims of “ultimate truth” presented by authorities and prefigured later thinkers such as David Hume. Agrippa’s most famous work, De Occulta Philosophia Libri Tres (Three Books of Occult Philosophy was an important stepping stone from the magical worldview of medieval times to the scientific view that began to take shape in the Renaissance. Although he was writing in a pre-scientific age and describing a worldview that was based upon magic, he would have an influence on later ideas because Agrippa argued that the world had been endowed by God with “natural magic.” Disease, for example, could be treated by herbal medicines which were seen as having magical properties. This was in contrast to the medieval view that illness was a punishment sent by God which could only be cured by prayer. Much of our modern understanding of the world would evolve from such contemplations of “magic”; botany would evolve from studies attempting to determine the magical properties of plants, astronomy would emerge from the superstition of astrology, and chemistry from the magical quests of alchemy. The flowering of the sciences would eventually grow from the key idea of the Scientific Method: that ideas must be tested by independent experiment and open debate. But at first there was still a strong sense of the medieval idea that mysteries of the world could be explained by magical knowledge that was only available to a few. The human tendency to attribute the unfamiliar to “magic” was stated by novelist Arthur C. Clarke as Clarke’s Third Law:
“Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic”.More than a century after the death of Agrippa, Isaac Newton would be born and would become the Enlightenment symbol of a rational understanding of the world when his famous work Philosophiae Naturalis Principia Mathematica (Mathematical Principles of Natural Philosophy) created the foundation of the science of physics which persists to this day. But Newton actually spent more time working on alchemy than he did on physics and he devoted more time to studies of theology than he did to alchemy. John Maynard Keynes said
“Newton was not the first of the age of reason. He was the last of the magicians.”[adrotate group="5"]November 1, 2012 at 6:46 am #158854thetricksterParticipantThat is a really interesting thought ^^
However, there are a couple of things I would like to add:
the first one is regarding the idea of science not being developed in a world with magic. This idea makes me remember what Tolkien said in his essay “On Fairy tales”. He said that every world needs a set of natural –and, sometimes, also magical- rules to work. It is completely possible to develop science in a world with magic, especially the sort of science more related to everyday live. I guess there were midwifes, rural doctors, herbalists, builders, gunsmiths, astronomers, etc… in the Enchanted Forest, since we only have heard about 4 magicians, but people seem to live without their constant assistance. Besides that, magic has its rules, its limitations; those magicians had also part of Scientifics, they know about the rules of the world and about the rules of magic, and how to make them fit together. (A fact that allows the “debate” between Dr. Frankenstein and Rumplestiltskin as equals)The second one is regarding the evolution of science from superstition. Actually, it was like a circle: in the Ancient Greek –well, and in Mesopotamia, in Egypt…- the philosophers were actually scientifics, the current difference between “those who think” and “those who practice science” didn’t exist. A doctor was also a mathematician, astronomer, lawyer and poet. That was the time in which the atom was “discovered”, and some rules of physics and mathematics set, for instance. With the raise of Roman Empire, the Barbarian Invasions, the raise of Christianism, and finally the Fall of the Empire, all that knowledge was lost until the Renaissance and was finally fulfil during the Enlightment.
But the fact is that those so called “magicians” who lived before the scientific method were not superstitious people who wanted to turn iron into gold… most of the scientific practices were punished (the last Inquisitorial trials were in 1821. In the same year in which Newton born, Galileo was burn for saying that Earth moves around the Sun and not the opposite way. And more or less at the time of Newton the “Tableau de l’inconstance des mauvais anges et demons” was written by the inquisitor Pierre de Lancre, and also the “Malleus Maleficarum”. Both of them very useful books… to find and kill witches and other dangerous persons) another instance is that one of the most famous places to learn magic was the Black School of the Sorbonne in Paris. It was said that the Devil himself taught his pupils the dark arts. The fact was that there were some students who were not satisfied by what they learnt at the University and wanted more. They wanted real science and not “magic”. The paradox is that those pupils of “the Devil” have been recorded as the magicians.
Just a couple of additions, I enjoy your reflection. ^^^Conclusion –my opinion, sure- no matter how much Dr. Frankenstein and Rumplestiltskin want to discuss about the differences of their respective arts, they are two sides of the same coin: knowledge. The difference lies in perception: Magic is seen as dangerous and unreliable while science is seen as honourable and reliable.
November 1, 2012 at 7:48 am #158862PheeParticipantBoth of your posts are really interesting. If only Rumple and Frankenstein could sit down an have a rational debate on the topic, I’ll bet they’d have a grand old time. 😉
This is a tweet of Adam’s I saw just before:
our world = no magic til now. Victors world = magic whether he knew it or not
The posts in this thread have got me thinking about how Victor perceived his world. Seems like he’s one of those pioneers who first started investigating magic in a new way, creating the principles of science in the process.
I admit, when it first seemed that they were gonna introduce science fiction to the show through Frankenstein, I thought it seemed out of place. But now that I’m thinking about it, it’s actually kind of brilliant that they’ve introduced this new element to further the definition of magic and how it’s perceived by and used by different people.
November 1, 2012 at 1:48 pm #158883melliemdParticipantI agree with that tweet from Adam 100%. Assumingly his world will include Dracula – and I don’t care what you say, vampires are magical. Werewolves are magical. A headless horseman is magical. They just have an inherent magic to them. It’s not a magic they can harness to start casting spells and changing the world around them, but it’s a magic in their veins that allows their body – or doesn’t allow it – to do things that a non-magical human being can/can’t do.
November 2, 2012 at 3:10 am #159080timespacerParticipant@TheTrickster wrote:
The second one is regarding the evolution of science from superstition. Actually, it was like a circle: in the Ancient Greek –well, and in Mesopotamia, in Egypt…- the philosophers were actually scientifics, the current difference between “those who think” and “those who practice science” didn’t exist.
Good point! I should have said that I was really concentrating on the shift from the medieval to the modern view. Many of the ancient Greek philosophers were attempting to find scientific explanations for the world and they certainly employed open debate (although most of them were a bit long on hypothesis and short on experiment).
For a chilling account of the Malleus Malifcarum, read Carl Sagan’s The Demon-Haunted World
You raise a very good point that we don’t really know how widespread magic is in the Enchanted Forest since we’ve only seen a handful of people using magic. We do seem to see most people going about their daily business without it, so as you say, those people must have a basic understanding of how the natural world works – which is a simple science.
November 2, 2012 at 3:15 am #159083timespacerParticipant@Phee wrote:
This is a tweet of Adam’s I saw just before:
our world = no magic til now. Victors world = magic whether he knew it or not
The posts in this thread have got me thinking about how Victor perceived his world. Seems like he’s one of those pioneers who first started investigating magic in a new way, creating the principles of science in the process.
I like that! Perhaps the magic in Victor’s world was not as obvious or as easily accessible as that in the Enchanted Forest. Maybe it is a world with just a little magic.
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