Is this show still about Hope? : post Neals death

Not sure

In the moment it is too early for me too speak clear minded about it.

I feel that in the series final they will not making a big Thanksgiving with sass and cinnamon with all of the characters, but Henry killing Rumple to be the New DarkOne.

A story of hope was that the Stiltskin line was a sad story of a cycle of abandonment of fathers and sons – Malcolm and Rumple, Rumple and Bae, and then Neal abandoned his son without even knowing it, but from the moment he discovered he had a son he did everything he could to be there for him. Neal was determined to break the cycle, and he was doing it. THAT was about hope.

Henry having to bury his father, with no memory of who he even was, is not a hopeful story. Neal dying without his son remembering that they loved each other, is not a hopeful story. The cycle of abandonment in that family continuing, despite the fact that Neal did everything he could to make it stop, is not a hopeful story.

A story of hope was at the end of 311, when Neal told Emma and Henry that he would see them both again.

Him never actually getting to see his son again before he died, is not a hopeful story.

Rumple accepted responsibility for his actions and GAVE HIS LIFE so that his son could have a happy ending. That was a hopeful story, that even villains, who have abused many people in their time, can achieve redemption, eventually do the right thing to try and make up for it, and have some good come from it.

Rumple GIVING HIS LIFE to make up for his mistakes, so that his son could have a happy ending, and then having the son die, is not a hopeful story. What’s the point of villains trying to do better, if all they’re gonna get out of it is this. Everything that Rumple put everyone through in a bid to find his son, was for nothing, because now the son is dead. THE WHOLE STORY THE SHOW WAS BASED ON, EVERYTHING EVERONE WENT THROUGH, WAS FOR NOTHING IN THE END. How is there any hope in that story?

Neal was a good guy, contrary to what his death scene would want you to believe, he ALREADY KNEW what it was to selflessly sacrifice yourself for others, because he had done it multiple times. He didn’t learn that lesson from Rumple, if anything it was the other way around. He got beaten down time and again, from the time he was a child. He wasn’t perfect, he did things that hurt others, but he owned the guilt of his mistakes, and he apologised, and tried to do better. That was a story of hope, that even if life deals you a CRAP hand, and even if you make some choices you’d go back and change if you could, that as long as you hang in there and keep fighting, that you can be the better, stronger person, and keep striving for that happy ending.

Killing a character that was the embodiment of those qualities is NOT a story of hope. Many people believe that the whole message of the show has been a lie. Personally, I’m VERY disenchanted with the show now, not just because of fact they killed one of my fave characters, but because the way it happened alters the entire message of the show from, “Hang in there, keeping fighting the good fight, and you’ll get a happy ending,” to “Life’s a bitch and then you die.”

And I don’t give a crap if sometimes real life IS just a bitch and then you die, because while this isn’t “just a TV show”, it IS a TV show, that real people look to for hope in their own lives, hope that even if they’ve made similar mistakes to these characters, (and I’m talking about all the characters, not just Neal), even if they’re in the same crappy position in their own lives, there’s still a happy ending out there for them to keep dreaming about, because everyone deserves a happy ending. That message has been shot to crap now, and people are feeling on a VERY PERSONAL level.

So please, if people could refrain from commenting that Neal fans should just get over it and move on, just don’t go there, because this show is about FAR more than just characters on a screen, it affects people on a personal level, it affects how they think about their own lives, and you cannot tell someone to just get over something that affects them on a deep emotional level. It’s not just about Neal dying, it’s about the message that, “nope, you’re probably just screwed,” is the message that this death is sending. I feel like I’ve interpreted the entire message of the show incorrectly, and that’s just sad, the whole story feels like a waste now.

I honestly fail to see how killing a character like Neal was a natural progression of the HOPEFUL story they claim to have been telling. They had Neal’s story on a hopeful trajectory, and then they just abandoned all hope for him, for Rumple, for Henry, for Emma. Emma who has been saying that as Saviour, she doesn’t get the happy moments in life, and her parents have been trying to convince her otherwise, and now this man she loved, the father of her child, is dead, essentially proving her fears about her life correct, that crap will just keep happening to her. We all know that Henry will get his memories back at some point, but all Emma knows now is that her son’s father died without him knowing that they loved each other, and that’s something she’ll have to carry around for the rest of her life, alone, not being able to share it with Henry, then their grief over this SHOULD be shared. Or she’s probably thinking that if Henry DOES remember, does remember the love he had for his father, and then has to grieve for him, that will be painful for him. Henry will forever live with the knowledge that his father died when he didn’t remember him. That he stood by his grave with no memory of who he was.

How is any of that a hopeful story in ANY way for anyone?

First I must stress that Im not trying to make you, or any other Neal fans, get over it and move on with this post. You do that when you want to. Im just trying to tell people my point of view and discuss it.

I know, and that’s fine. There have been many comments from people about how Neal fans should just get over it and move on though, and I know that those comments have legitimately hurt people, so just wanted to say that anyone who does feel the need to say that, please just don’t.

Neal had hope until his end. It didn’t get him much of anything, but he had it.

That’s my point though, what’s the point of having hope, of holding onto it, of always believing, if it’s just gonna get you death and suffering? They have portrayed hope as being futile IMO.

Hello everyone. I’ve never posted to these forums before, but I was surprised to see so many negative responses to the events in this episode (by people whose opinions I respect and have usually agreed with in my time lurking here) that I just wanted to post my own two cents.

In my opinion this episode (while it had some story-contrivances unavoidable in even the best tv-shows) had some of the best writing and some of the strongest themes of the series so far. To me the themes of the series are indeed hope, as well as redemption, love, healing and sacrifice.

Rumplestiltskin’s quest for his son has been a defining aspect of his character for a long time. When he let go of his son’s hand in the Enchanted Forest because he was afraid to let go of his power, it became a wound he was desperate to heal. He searched for his son for hundreds of years, being willing to sink to the lowest depths to reach him. He may have let go of Bae’s hand, he never gave up hope on one day meeting him again.

And against all odds, hundreds of years later, Bae was still alive. And Rumple found him. Yet his attempts at healing the rift between them had mixed results at best, and so when Bae was thought dead last season, Rumple lost it completely. He thought he had failed his son. Bae had died without knowing his father loved him, without forgiving him, without believing in him. It was devastating.

And again, father and son were given a new chance. Bae was alive. And Rumple learned a valuable lesson. When he first found Bae again, he told him he could change him into a child again. They could start over. It’s not what Baelfire wanted. He had lived a life that was longer than most people. He didn’t want to start all over. No, Rumple did not need to change Bae. He needed to change himself. And he did. By sacrificing himself to save his family and kill Pan. This was a sacrifice that was in no way without meaning. It showed not only Bae, but the entire town, that he had more courage in him than anyone had given him credit for. (Except for Belle, who believed in him all along already, awww…)

Cue “quiet minds” in which Bae, now desperate to get back to his own son, throws all caution to the wind and risks everything. As Belle points out, he makes the same mistake his father made. And in doing so, he finally truly understands him. They become one, in more ways than just the creepy body-switching CGI we’ll see later.

Bae I’m sure realizes his mistake once he sees the burn-mark on his hand. But hope prevails. This time Rumple refuses to let go of him. This time he chooses to gives up his power, healing the final rift between him and his son. He does exactly what is needed. What he couldn’t do before.

And Bae (oh Bae…) “awakens” outside of the Enchanted Forest, where he is reunited with Emma. And I’m sure it soothes his soul to learn that she is happy. That she is strong enough to move on, despite her love for him. And their son is happy. He now knows the normal live he couldn’t have growing up in Storybrooke. Henry has friends and videogames and icecream.

When the time comes to make a choice, Bae chooses to move on. He chooses to be brave, knowing that his sacrifice will help Emma, his son and his father. And he knows that Emma will tell Henry that Neal died a hero.
This time it is true.

Some people have complained that Bae’s death scene goes on too long. I completely disagree as every moment here is so incredible important.
Bae tells his father exactly what he needs to hear. What he has needed to hear for several hundreds of years. The culmination of all Rumple has sacrificed.
Bae dies telling his father that he loves him. Even more than that, Bae lets him know he respects him and is inspired by his courage. “Let go” he says. And he’s right. After centuries of holding on to his lost son, it is time for Rumplestiltskin to let go.

It is thanks to those words alone that I believe Rumple, despite the pain of losing his son, finally has a chance to begin healing. (Assuming he gets away from the wicked witch first, ofcourse – but that’s an entirely different tale).

His son has lived a very long life and died a hero. And he has left behind a family that I’m sure Rumple will now be motivated to protect on his behalf.

No matter how much time passes, no matter how terrible the mistakes we make, there’s always a chance for redemption, for forgiveness. I’m not sure there’s such a thing as a “happy ending” (does anything ever truly end?). Life can be harsh and unfair, but hope and love shine through in even the most unlikely of places. And it’s these moments that make everything worthwhile, worth fighting for.

That’s what this show is about for me and I can’t wait to see where it will take us next.

Hello everyone. I’ve never posted to these forums before, but I was surprised to see so many negative responses to the events in this episode (by people whose opinions I respect and have usually agreed with in my time lurking here) that I just wanted to post my own two cents.

In my opinion this episode (while it had some story-contrivances unavoidable in even the best tv-shows) had some of the best writing and some of the strongest themes of the series so far. To me the themes of the series are indeed hope, as well as redemption, love, healing and sacrifice.

Rumplestiltskin’s quest for his son has been a defining aspect of his character for a long time. When he let go of his son’s hand in the Enchanted Forest because he was afraid to let go of his power, it became a wound he was desperate to heal. He searched for his son for hundreds of years, being willing to sink to the lowest depths to reach him. He may have let go of Bae’s hand, he never gave up hope on one day meeting him again.

And against all odds, hundreds of years later, Bae was still alive. And Rumple found him. Yet his attempts at healing the rift between them had mixed results at best, and so when Bae was thought dead last season, Rumple lost it completely. He thought he had failed his son. Bae had died without knowing his father loved him, without forgiving him, without believing in him. It was devastating.

And again, father and son were given a new chance. Bae was alive. And Rumple learned a valuable lesson. When he first found Bae again, he told him he could change him into a child again. They could start over. It’s not what Baelfire wanted. He had lived a life that was longer than most people. He didn’t want to start all over. No, Rumple did not need to change Bae. He needed to change himself. And he did. By sacrificing himself to save his family and kill Pan. This was a sacrifice that was in no way without meaning. It showed not only Bae, but the entire town, that he had more courage in him than anyone had given him credit for. (Except for Belle, who believed in him all along already, awww…)

Cue “quiet minds” in which Bae, now desperate to get back to his own son, throws all caution to the wind and risks everything. As Belle points out, he makes the same mistake his father made. And in doing so, he finally truly understands him. They become one, in more ways than just the creepy body-switching CGI we’ll see later.

Bae I’m sure realizes his mistake once he sees the burn-mark on his hand. But hope prevails. This time Rumple refuses to let go of him. This time he chooses to gives up his power, healing the final rift between him and his son. He does exactly what is needed. What he couldn’t do before.

And Bae (oh Bae…) “awakens” in the Enchanted forest, where he is reunited with Emma. And I’m sure it soothes his soul to learn that she is happy. That she is strong enough to move on, despite her love for him. And their son is happy. He now knows the normal live he couldn’t have growing up in Storybrooke. Henry has friends and videogames and icecream.

When the time comes to make a choice, Bae chooses to move on. He chooses to be brave, knowing that his sacrifice will help Emma, his son and his father. And he knows that Emma will tell Henry that Neal died a hero.
This time it is true.

Some people have complained that Bae’s death scene goes on too long. I completely disagree as every moment here is so incredible important.
Bae tells his father exactly what he needs to hear. What he has needed to hear for several hundreds of years. The culmination of all Rumple has sacrificed.
Bae dies telling his father that he loves him. Even more than that, Bae lets him know he respects him and is inspired by his courage. “Let go” he says. And he’s right. After centuries of holding on to his lost son, it is time for Rumplestiltskin to let go.

It is thanks to those words alone that I believe Rumple, despite the pain of losing his son, finally has a chance to begin healing. (Assuming he gets away from the wicked witch first, ofcourse – but that’s an entirely different tale).

His son has lived a very long life and died a hero. And he has left behind a family that I’m sure Rumple will now be motivated to protect on his behalf.

No matter how much time passes, no matter how terrible the mistakes we make, there’s always a chance for redemption, for forgiveness. I’m not sure there’s such a thing as a “happy ending” (does anything ever truly end?). Life can be harsh and unfair, but hope and love shine through in even the most unlikely of places. And it’s these moments that make everything worthwhile, worth fighting for.

That’s what this show is about for me and I can’t wait to see where it will take us next.

Great post. That is a lovely way to view Neal’s death, I don’t really know what to say, that is a really lovely post.