Home › Forums › Once Upon a Time › Season Four › 4×09 “Fall” › Me Comes First
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December 3, 2014 at 9:28 am #292053KebParticipant
In this episode we see Rumple make the morally reprehensible decision to put the fairies in his hat, stopping them from any chance of making a cure for the coming spell. I think it’s intentionally within the episode paralleled with Elsa’s choice to seek Anna instead of using the necklace to save the town (selfish even if we viewers know–as Elsa doesn’t–that Anna & Kristoff are facing imminent doom without her help), and Hook’s choice in 317 to kill Black Beard rather than helping Ariel save Eric. (Wait, that was in the ep? Well, Black Beard was, and he referenced the incident, so yeah, it was. And Hook’s statements to Rumple definitely reflect that experience in his life.)
Meanwhile, we’ve seen other times where characters have been in more or less the same place, with Regina in S2 being the most direct parallel.
–She is broken when Cora tells her she can have what she most wants (Henry) and Cora’s love, and so she helps her mother.
–After Cora’s death, Rumple warns her that she has to choose–she can have Henry’s love OR vengeance for Cora’s death, not both. Hook directly echoes this with his final plea that Rumple has to choose between Belle’s love and his power.
–When Regina destroys the beans, saving a few for herself, and then plans to use the black diamond to destroy the town and take Henry away…pretty much EXACTLY what Gold decided to do this episode. (And Regina’s mourning her mother still, while Gold’s still mourning his son…both were unintentionally involved in causing those deaths, too, now that I think of it.)
–Hook taking the last bean and his ship and getting out of Dodge at the end of S2. Yeah, he came back. Regina also saved the town. Will Rumple make a quick turnaround then?What about other examples?
–August’s selfishness at various points in his life could be paralleled.
–Snow post-Johanna’s murder. The speech she gives David about how doing all the right things has just screwed herself and everyone else over is so echoed in Rumple’s speech to Emma about who he is in 408. And that speech echoed Regina’s….well, constant complaints that being good never gets her anywhere. S2 most prominently, but we also see it in S4 after Marian comes back.Oh, and Rumple in 208 reminds me so much of Rumple in Lacey, in that moment where he gives up on being good and beats Keith to a pulp. His “What’s the point?” is immediately followed by Lacey’s approval, and he responds with this little shrug of, “Hey, maybe I can have almost everything I want after all.”
I think that’s sort of where he is right now.
[adrotate group="5"]Keeper of Belle's Gold magic, sand dollar, cloaks, purple FTL outfit, spell scroll, library key, copy of Romeo and Juliet, and cry-muffling pillow, Rumple's doll, overcoat, and strength, and The Timeline. My spreadsheet: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B6r8CySCCWd9R0RUNm4xR3RhMEU/view?usp=sharing
December 3, 2014 at 10:05 am #292057SlurpeezParticipantThere is a philosophical debate surrounding a lot of what you’ve laid out. The two main schools of thought being presented are Kantian ethics vs. utilitarianism. Kantian ethics pretty much puts the emphasis on saving an individual while utilitarianism puts emphasis on saving the greatest number of people. Based on the plot, I’d say certain characters have shown themselves to be Kantians vs. Utilitarians at various times, with the “heroes” mostly leaning towards utilitarian.
Emma, David, Snow White, and Regina (now reformed) were willing to sacrifice finding Anna if it meant saving themselves and the town, making them utilitarians in this particular instance. Elsa was not willing to throw her sister under the bus, making her a Kantian. Elsa giving them an empty bag of pebbles was the exact same ploy Hook used when he gave Emma an empty bag to make off with the bean in 2×22, though he did turn around to help the group, making him more of a utilitarian now.
Rumple showed himself to be a Kantian (of sorts). He made a deal with the Snow Queen that she could cast her spell on the town provided she allow himself, Belle, and Henry to leave. That means he was choosing a handful of individuals he cared about directly over the town. Even when it appeared like Rumple was a utilitarian in S3 by sacrificing his life to save everyone from Peter Pan, Belle pointed out that Rumple really did it for her and for Baelfire. The fact that Rumple ended up saving everyone else was a happy consequence of putting his family first, a decision which just happened to align with saving the greatest number of people (so that it appeared to be a very utilitarian act).
Rumple’s current mindset seems to be “Who cares about everyone else’s happiness when your own personal happiness is at stake, right?” While that is presented as being “villainous” it’s basically the same decision that Elsa made when she tricked everyone and made off with the snowflake necklace to find Anna. Elsa’s decision was to find the one person she cared about most (her sister) over a town full of strangers. The thing that probably separates Rumple and Elsa is that Elsa probably rationalized her decision by surmising that once she found Anna, then she’d help Emma defeat Ingrid (which is probably something Rumple didn’t do, since he’d probably just leave the town to its fate and not try and take down Ingrid).
Rumple never ceased being the dark one, in spite of that act of self-sacrifice in S3, and if anything, has become even darker since his resurrection. I think that the combination of being controlled by his dagger and Rumple losing his son in S3 was enough to send Rumple over the edge. Despite his talk at his son’s grave, Rumple very quickly succumbed to temptation when he saw the sorcerer’s hat in the abandoned mansion; in fact, it’s almost like someone planted it there for Rumple to find. He is all about himself, even though he probably rationalizes it by claiming he’s going to save the ones closest to him like Belle and Henry. Yet, the fact that Rumple would kill even Emma, Henry’s mother and the woman his son loved, is just an indication of how selfish Rumple can be. If Rumple doesn’t have an emotional stake in the person in consideration, then it doesn’t seem to show a moral concern about having blood on his hands.
"That’s how you know you’ve really got a home. When you leave it, there’s this feeling that you can’t shake. You just miss it." Neal Cassidy
December 3, 2014 at 1:08 pm #292062PriceofMagicParticipantI think the thing with Rumple in regards to his lack of care about the likes of Snowing, Regina and the rest of the town is that in his eyes, they’ve not done anything that makes them deserved to be saved. Obviously he loves Belle and Henry is his last link to Baelfire, and I do think he cares about Emma enough not to go out of his way to hurt her, but not enough to not try and use her if the opportunity presents itself.
Snowing are constantly accusing him of being behind everything that goes wrong. First they accuse Regina then if it’s not her they accuse him with no evidence other than “well if it’s not Regina then it’s got to be Rumple”. Snowing constantly use him as a magical problem solver and then revert to accusing him of causing said problem.
Regina denied him his initial vengeance on Zelena in such a patronising manner. He had to lie and deceive to take that vengeance whilst Regina is sitting pretty no matter what. Zelena played a role in Baelfire’s death and tried to make him harm Belle. Zelena was a dead woman walking from the flashbacks of 315’s events onwards.
The town only leaves him be because of fear and Belle.
I can see why Rumple would rather save himself and his loved ones rather than risk dooming them all for a town and its inhabitants who really don’t care whether Rumple lives or dies unless it affects them in some way. For example, “oh no, our magical problem solver is dead”.
Question: Did Rumple actually know how close the fairies were to finding a cure because of Anna being found? He knew they were trying to find a cure but at that stage Anna wasn’t found and the spell was imminent. Rumple just came up with a plan B instead of putting all his eggs in one basket and hoping the fairies would make the cure in time. Why wasn’t a cure being worked on as soon as they knew the shattered spell sight was what Ingrid was planning. Why wait until it had been cast?
I also think that perhaps Rumple’s current actions are because he’s given up hope after Bae’s death. He’s wondering what’s the point in being good when it just blows up in your face. His heroic sacrifice lead to his son’s death and his enslavement.
All magic comes with a price!
Keeper of FelixDecember 3, 2014 at 1:27 pm #292063KebParticipantThe philosophy stuff is Amazing, Slurpeez.
And, PoM: He knew exactly where they stood–he was watching Belle work. They didn’t start before Belle realized that Anna’s hair or necklace could save the town because they didn’t know what to do. (The fairies are apparently not so clever.)
When he took Belle, their only hope was that Elsa found Anna. He had no reason to believe that Elsa would.
Keeper of Belle's Gold magic, sand dollar, cloaks, purple FTL outfit, spell scroll, library key, copy of Romeo and Juliet, and cry-muffling pillow, Rumple's doll, overcoat, and strength, and The Timeline. My spreadsheet: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B6r8CySCCWd9R0RUNm4xR3RhMEU/view?usp=sharing
December 3, 2014 at 2:22 pm #292067WickedRegalParticipantAll thoughts I have for Rumple are put on hold until we see 4×11, Heroes and Villains.
"If you go as far as you can see...you will then see enough to go even further." - Finn Balor
December 4, 2014 at 10:06 am #292135SlurpeezParticipantI can see why Rumple would rather save himself and his loved ones rather than risk dooming them all for a town and its inhabitants who really don’t care whether Rumple lives or dies unless it affects them in some way. For example, “oh no, our magical problem solver is dead”.
At the end of the day, Rumple’s self-interest and the interests of those in town simply don’t align. It’s a clash of two branches of ethics. Even if we can understand why Rumple makes the decisions he does, it’s not going to get him what he wants in the end. Firstly, even if Rumple does successfully leave town, Rumple will be powerless because there is no magic outside of SB. He’d be vulnerable, which is the exact opposite of what he wants. So how does his plan even make any sense? Does he plan to bring magic to all of A Land Without Magic? Also, it’s pretty much the opposite of what he really wants if his idea of “happiness” comes at the expense of the happiness of those he loves, namely Belle and Henry, who’ll lose people they love. Rumple would have to lie to Belle and to Henry for the rest of their natural lives. But, he’d probably justify it by saying he did it to “protect them” from the Snow Queen.
But let’s be honest. If Rumple had wanted to defeat the Snow Queen before she even cast her spell, he could’ve done so with the snap of his fingers. Rumple is the one who ended the Ogres War and freed the children. Rumple is the one who saved Belle’s people in the second ogre’s war. No one currently has Rumple’s dagger to control him, so it would’ve been as easy as breathing for Rumple to destroy the Snow Queen. But he doesn’t even try. In fact, the first thing he does is makes deals with the very woman who would destroy the rest of Henry’s family and the town itself. Yet, Rumple lusts so much after unrestricted power that he makes the deal with the Snow Queen in exchange for knowledge of how to free himself from that dagger. It’s a decision which ultimately leads to the Snow Queen casting her spell while he turns his back on everyone.
"That’s how you know you’ve really got a home. When you leave it, there’s this feeling that you can’t shake. You just miss it." Neal Cassidy
December 4, 2014 at 10:31 am #292136KebParticipantI think the biggest plot hole this season is that they haven’t yet shown us what DQ has over Rumple. He already had the box when he realized she was up to stuff, so it wasn’t that. She didn’t have anything to blackmail him with until he started making deals with her. He had ribbons that he knew she’d be willing to trade for…and that’s ALL we’ve seen. It even looks like he has no clue what she has worth offering back (though the knowledge she gives him IS desirable for him).
Why she wasn’t a snail the instant Belle started crying after the mirror is a mystery that I hope they explain. (A snail in a hat, no less.)
As for how he plans to deal with Henry & Belle, I’m suspecting that he intends to take their memories. Which would be an interesting twist when combined with the scene they cut (they really, really shouldn’t have cut the Henry scene if that’s where they’re going). I think he believes with the hat, he’ll have enough power to use his magic anywhere.
We did see that the Dragon had magic abilities even in the LWM, and I’m almost expecting that we’ll see DQ using magic outside of Storybrooke in the coming episode. Also, lights flickered when Henry was born–either Henry, Emma, or both affected that without knowing, in a way that appears to represent magic gone a little haywire. He was born in Phoenix.
So…it may be that with enough or the right kind of powers, magic can be used in the Land Without. In S1, we saw limited magic (mostly connected to magic objects) in use even in Storybrooke. So some magic can survive even without external magic being present.
Keeper of Belle's Gold magic, sand dollar, cloaks, purple FTL outfit, spell scroll, library key, copy of Romeo and Juliet, and cry-muffling pillow, Rumple's doll, overcoat, and strength, and The Timeline. My spreadsheet: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B6r8CySCCWd9R0RUNm4xR3RhMEU/view?usp=sharing
December 4, 2014 at 2:21 pm #292152PriceofMagicParticipantBelle wasn’t involved in the second ogre war, that would’ve at least been the third one if not more.
First ogre war involved Rumple which carried on long after which Baelfire was going to be drafted to until Rumple stopped it.
Second Ogre’s war involved Granny’s brothers when she was younger and bitten by the wolf who would later become Red’s grandfather.
Third Ogre war was possibly Belle’s one though there is no clear start and stop for the ogre wars after the first one.
I wish we’d see more of the ogre wars.
All magic comes with a price!
Keeper of FelixDecember 5, 2014 at 10:32 am #292193obisgirlParticipantThere is a philosophical debate surrounding a lot of what you’ve laid out. The two main schools of thought being presented are Kantian ethics vs. utilitarianism. Kantian ethics pretty much puts the emphasis on saving an individual while utilitarianism puts emphasis on saving the greatest number of people.
Sounds like “the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few” but in reverse. Interesting.
January 11, 2018 at 8:50 pm #345338annieParticipantYes, lovely episode
I really like this series and to watch different reviews online about characters and actors of it! This is very interesting
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