I apologise in advance for this mammoth post being mammoth- I went through the last 9ish pages!
ETA: the moral message on ONCE might be that “all love stories have their problems but you can overcome it!” but the growing issue is that the problems faced by our ships (most of them) are so far removed from our everyday reality–murder, magic, revenge, dark hearts, portal jumping, wife returning from the dead–that it’s hard to relate and find something realistically positive in them because of how far removed they are from reality unless you try really really really hard, and every single shipper does it. We boil our ships down to a quick tagline: “perfect true love,” “second chances” “hope after heartache” “seeing the good in others” but remove every single circumstance in the show in order get these pithy sayings.
I think that was just natural given the fact magic came to SB though.
As for all the (currently cannon) ships being removed from reality- I suppose that really depends on how closely you want to look at them I guess. ie.
Snowing- I suppose for them it was in-laws that hate you 😉 Now it’s juggling being new parents, with close family & extended family?
CS – Moving past old the baggage/ fears & hang ups of old relationships to start afresh in a new relationship?
Rumbelle- How to live & love with a spouses addiction?
OQ – What happens when a man loves 2 different women, but has no legal tie to either? (remembering that his ‘wife’ was assumed dead for at least 30yrs)
All these things seem very relevant in our day & age to me.
The big question: do your partner’s past not matter at all? Especially one that is built on deception and blood? It’s all washed away because “it’s true love/soul mate/a second chance/ fate.” Is THAT the kind of message that we want to uphold?
I think the past does matter, but only to a certain extent. What someone did in their past will matter or not based on any given individuals morality & ethics- ie. Most of us would never choose to date/marry/love someone who has committed killed/murder in cold blood, but do as many of us have a problem with choosing to date/marry/love a solider who has killed (murdered) in cold blood in war? How about someone who commits an act of murder to ‘protect’ someone else? Deceit acts in much the same way- if you yourself are a former criminal for instance, does a futures partners life of crime hold the same stigma, as it would for someone who has never lived that lifestyle?
At what point one’s morality & ethics excuse ‘murder’, deceit or theft as acceptable, really comes down to the individual/s involved- their morality, ethics & former/current lifestyles etc.
My fear is that ONCE is loosing that in an effort to push storytelling. That a basic moral message is getting lost in the SHINY! of the couple/ship.
I think this comes down to the prism the show is being viewed through- I know for a fact if I’m depressed, the funniest comedy on the planet will not cheer me up & the most wondrous fantasy wont carry me away- but I can tear them down & to tell you everything ‘impossible’ or ‘wrong’ with them quick smart & if they go for ‘shiny’ moments, I’ll show how black those really are 😉 If I’m happy (or even not depressed), that same comedy or fantasy is the most hilarious or wondrous thing I’ve ever seen & the ‘shiny’ is ok or welcomed, because it’s part of the ‘fun or magic’. So what I’m saying is, it is possible that ONCE isnt really loosing it’s basic moral message at all, but that some fans are having a harder time seeing it now, after feeling so let down this season?
Is having a heart necessary to love? Because Regina was infinitely better off without hers.
I think the more pertinent question could be is ‘having no heart preferable to having a blackened heart?’
I believe the message in OUAT is a positive one because at the core of love in OUAT is overcoming fears that is specific for each of the characters.
I agree with this- even if Snow proving that point repeatedly with Regina frustrated me to Pluto & back again 😉
Hook not only stole Rumple’s wife from him
Canonically he didnt “steal” Milah- Milah asked to go with him- A&E made that point a few times. Just to make this clear- I’m NOT defending a ship- I’m defending fact. I think for this thread to stay civilized, we need to stick with cannon/fact when it’s been laid out for us.
What I have a bigger problem with is when “love saves the day” without that person (the anti-hero) doing any of the work
Since you used RumBelle for this example I’ll use them as well- Rumple may have his TL/HEA & appears to have literally gotten away with murder & deceit in the process…. but has Belle? I’d argue No & therefore as a couple they havent achieved HEA status yet.
Love is great and grand, but without contrition on the part of the person, I don’t know if it should have the amount of power ONCE gives it.
& I think this is a fair comment to make given the ending of S3. I’m hoping this issue will be addressed in S4.
…Where’s the realism? Has ONCE lost it?
I really hope I dont get bashed for this- but isnt part of what happened with Neal supposed to show, sometimes no matter how much we hope & dream for something, it might not work out. The same could be said of Zelena & Cora I suppose, but Neal’s was more ‘realistic’ (body time sharing aside).
Why do a lot of fairytales end with a happily ever after? Because subconsciously that is what everyone yearns for. Nobody wants to think they’re going to spend their whole life unloved and alone. The notion that there is someone out there who is your perfect match and it is just a matter of finding them is a comforting one. Much like the idea that all good and kind people go to Heaven upon death whilst those who commit evil acts will be punished for it in Hell. People don’t want to think of life as aimless, that you just exist until you die then you cease to exist. They want hope.
So I think the message of Once, in particular to love and romance, is about hope. You can overcome your past and find love and happiness. Your past doesn’t have to define you.
Fantastic post & I agree wholeheartedly with this.
You may love someone, but without true contrition for past wrongs, it’s hard, if not impossible, to have a good relationship. Love does not have to blind someone to the truth, nor does loving someone automatically qualify someone as getting a clean slate. In real life, no one is guaranteed a second chance or happiness simply for thinking they deserve it. People make mistakes all the time. People aren’t perfect. In a sense, love alone is not enough. As you said, it also takes a sense of reckoning, of admitting one’s faults, of confessing one’s sins. It takes going to the person you’ve wronged, admitting your faults, and asking for forgiveness. It takes honesty to build trust, which is based on something real. While love may be freely given, the amount of trust you have must be earned and must be based on honesty. On the flip side, for a person who has been hurt by love, it often can be a very difficult thing to forgive another who’s wronged you, though not impossible, when true repentance and trust can be rebuilt. While love is a powerful force, I think love must be tempered with true contrition before the foundations can be established.
Agreed.
However, I kind of disagree on the notion that love must be earned. You can earn someone’s trust but you can’t earn their love. Love is something that has to be given freely. Just because Hook helped Emma doesn’t automatically mean he “earned” her love. She gave him her love of her own free will. Likewise with RumBelle, Belle chooses to love Rumple even when Rumple screws up. Rumple is constantly astounded that Belle chooses to give him her love because he often viewed himself as unlovable. Love is not a prize that can be won or earned, it is a gift that has to be given from one person to another.
Very good point.
suppose in that sense, real love is unconditional, otherwise no one would be deserving of love
I don’t believe in unconditional love outside of parent to child. That relationship should always be unconditional. But to other than that…no, love is conditional.
I would make a distinction between unconditional love and unconditional relationships. A psychologist wrote about the distinction in an article entitiled Do You Believe in Unconditional Love? Love is something which is freely given, even when the beloved may not deserve it. Relationships, however, are a different thing entirely, what this writer calls “working partnerships.” As a married person, I agree with this perspective. I have unconditional love for my husband, and we made vows to be faithful to each other forever. Implicit in the marriage contract, however, is that both partners agree to be committed exclusively, otherwise the relationship suffers. The author of that article writes:
Love is very important. When you find someone through dating and relating who loves you for “who you are”, it is an amazing experience. Similarly, it is rewarding to love someone else “as they are” (or “warts and all” as my grandmother would say). I believe that such a bond is priceless and should be nurtured with great affection. Love is part of our emotions, attachment chemicals in the brain (for those inclined), and spirit (for those inclined).
Relationships, however, are an entirely different thing. Relationships are working partnerships. They involve thoughts, reasons, and decisions. They require two (or more) individuals in communication, commitment, and cooperative exchange.
As a result, love (feelings) and relationships (decisions) can have separate rules and expectations. Love, because it is a feeling, can be unconditional. Sometimes, no matter what a partner does, feelings toward them do not change. Relationships, however, are working partnerships. As such, they require conditions, boundaries, limits, and directions to run smoothly.
Therefore, a distinction must be made between “unconditional love”…and “unconditional relationships”.
But, Isn’t Love Enough?
Now that we have made the distinction between “unconditional love” and “unconditional relationships”, it is possible to love someone without limit, yet still have contingencies placed upon continuing a relationship with them. In other words, while you may continue to love a partner “no matter what”, you may not choose to be in a relationship with them under all conditions. This distinction is important to understand. But, it doesn’t hold for everyone…
There are some individuals that say, “no, love is enough”. These individuals decide, as long as they have love, nothing else is necessary. As a result, their relationships become “unconditional” as well. They do not set firm boundaries, contingencies, or limits with their “partner”. They make “relationship” decisions based on their feelings of love alone. Sometimes this works out… Other times, however, because no one is actively creating a working “partnership”, disaster can strike. Furthermore, because there is an expectation to “accept the partner for who he/she is” at all times, relationships may perpetuate under the worst of conditions.
On the other hand, the distinction between love and relationships is upheld with individuals that say “healthy relationships are necessary too”. These individuals love their partners unconditionally, but also set rules that maintain a relationship with them. They use influence, limits, and contingencies to ensure a balanced, equitable exchange in their romantic partnerships. Furthermore, while they may continue to “feel” love unconditionally, they also chose to end unhealthy partnerships when the conditions for them are no longer feasible.
I’m just going to go ahead & quote this whole post, because it’s perfect & worth repeating.
If LOVE is freely given then it should also be freely taken back at any moment based on the actions, deeds, thoughts, ect of the person to whom the love was given.
In the context of gradually “falling out of love” with someone, then yes, it does.
Okay, I think I know what the problem is here and I don’t think it has to do with Adam and Eddy’s writing, but what we’re trying to do here; which is look for a general theme about love that fits all couples on the show.
Which is impossible to do because not every couple is the same. There is overlapping of themes, but not everyone is the same. Even Emma said that her life experience is different from their parents and its going to be that way with every character.
But this is still a very good discussion to have.
I have to agree with @Obisgirl. What you get out of the show is entirely subjective.
A&E have repeatedly said the show is about Hope- I assume ‘hope’ to mean in all it’s forms- love, family, life, redemption whatever.
& I think ‘shipping’ in general proves this point precisely- No matter how something is portrayed on screen- even if something is said or done point blank, there will ALWAYS, ALWAYS be different interpretations about what is “actually/really” happening/said etc. Because some people will disagree with it, simply choose to ignore it, even plain old misinterpret something others will call “obvious”.
…… I’m not even going to try using an example as I cant think of away to do so with out being flamed & I’m not interested in going there (it’s 4am & I cant think of any other examples, that people wont be sensitive about, so I’m going to just leave this as it is & hope the point is clear without example/s).
I must admit having read this thread from pg 3 onwards, it really does seem to be going around in massive circles, every time something gets answered, there’s more questions that seem to eventually lead back to much the original rounds of questions, just in a slightly different format…. of course this could be the effects of sleep deprivation kicking in about now 😉
Going to have to agree with this, because I feel like asking “what is the general message about love” is too broad of a question, and as this thread has shown, not everybody agrees on what that can be based on their own experiences, morals and interpretations. It’s easy to say “well if Adam and Eddy can’t give a basic answer, then it’s bad writing”, but then again should we really be talking when we so far can’t even come up with a uniform answer that pleases everyone? Also Adam and Eddy’s answer to this question (if they have one) may have already been guessed in this thread, but that’s not going to stop someone from disagreeing with it.
Doh! MP said it way better than I!
The love where u can fart around someone and totally not have to say excuse me because they know what the deal is v_v
Bahahahahahahahahahahaha *inhales* hahahahahahaha *wipes tears from eyes* Oh good lord! This is sooooo true. Well said & if they’re going for reality, this would indeed be how one would recognize TL 😉 No rainbow kisses for reality- we just fart in front of them as proof 😛 *chuckles*
*Nods to Ranisha for the awesome Ruby Rhod gifs*