So happy to be having a civil discussion about SwanFire! As much as I have issues with them at times, I do get the appeal and the more I hear of what I consider legitimate arguments, the happier I am with having to face the possibility should it happen. I’ll love the show no matter what though.
I was asked about my issues with it not too long ago and after giving them saw that the person asking the questions told someone that CSers only like it cause we think Colin is hotter than MRJ and that we all hate Neal because he left Emma in jail (which is nothing remotely like what I said or feel) so I appreciate having actual discussions on the topic without throwing mud and calling fans delusional because both sides really do have points. We’re all entitled to our opinions and preferences but nothing is set in stone yet and as long as it is still up for debate, it should be up for *civil* debate as well.
We are all Oncers and want our favorite characters to be happy! We just have different ideas of how to get them to that point, that’s all. It doesn’t mean that any of us think couples we have seen on the show are not legitimate. I may argue the finer points of whether I define SF as a couple *right now* but they’ve still been shown on the show as a couple. The thing that started this whole debate was what the list included and its classifications because either it was 1 couple too long/few short or a great many too short. I do believe they are all “legitimate” though – hopefully there wasn’t any confusion on that point. It was all about the classification system for me. They are certainly an important legit couple on the show in that they have been shown to us at one point in time as a couple, but they haven’t been put on a shortlist of proven TLs yet, nor are they a couple *currently*
I haven’t gotten to do my season rewatch yet and I’m hoping with all of these things in mind that I will see more of the positive stuff everyone seems to be enjoying about Neal – I find I do like him when it’s not specifically a SF moment post-Tallahassee and I do genuinely feel for the character and what he has been through. I certainly don’t celebrate when he gets hurt or want anything bad to happen to him. He’s been through a LOT!
I’m hesitant to say anything is definite this early but I like understanding the other side of things, especially since most of my Oncer friends, mostly around here, are on the other side. The more screentime these guys get, and the more fleshed out their stories are, the more we will have to go on and the more opportunity to fall in love with them and appreciate them more / think of them as viable options for Emma – and I do think both have a chance for sure.
I am happy to hear that some are at least a little more open to Hook now and about as equally open to the idea of CS as I am to SF – both of these guys grow on you after awhile and my hope is that by the time they’re all reunited, the audience is a little more torn / at least a sliver open to the other side happening so it’s not such a knock-down, drag-out fight all the time – if only so that everyone can understand Emma’s dilemma and difficulty choosing. SO sick of the mud-slinging directed at fans for having a difference of opinion! Every character/pairing deserves to have passionate fans, they’re all awesome – though I could do without GOAT.
I will agree that Emma does wait til the last second to say how she feels and I’m not discounting those instances and I’m not saying she doesn’t have feelings for Neal. They share a past and a son and he has clearly affected the rest of her life. The only question I have about that declaration between them is how much of it is real and how much of it is the idea of it based on what it used to be. After such a long time, either could be true. H&K keep reminding us that they do have feelings for one another, but it is entirely possible to love someone without being in love with them, especially when lots of time has passed. I understand why some celebrate Emma saying ILY at the portal and others aren’t phased by it because she does love him but it could be closure and not that she’s in love with him and will never love again. Everyone has a different filter and I understand both arguments as she does love him (& H&K remind us of this a lot).
I’ll agree that Neal has a huge mixed bag of emotions and has put himself into a rotten place. He didn’t believe that Emma could forgive him and right when he was about to have a chance to try and fix things he chose to move on. Regardless of his reasons or lack of confidence, he didn’t choose to go after Emma and he didn’t say he loved her until after Tamara was an option so I feel like from EMMA’s point of view after that, he chose Tamara over her – against his real feelings but in that case the situation was bad for all three of them.
I get why he did it and that there are definitely a lot of emotions involved in all of it. I guess I’m mostly disappointed because he learned from Rumple’s mistakes but not Milah’s. He wants to be a better father to Henry because his wasn’t good, but he knew centuries ago that Milah regretted leaving him and never did anything about it. The fact that he did that to someone and chose not to do anything about it when he knows exactly how much it hurts grates me. He had the option, he was reminded of the option, and he chose to walk away.
In not going after her because he was afraid, he didn’t take into account her feelings and wonder how much damage he had done to her. Even if she hated him when she saw him again and asked him to leave after explaining why he did so, they could have found closure on what happened – he would have had a chance to get it off his chest why he let her go and she would have found out what really happened. He clearly knew that finding her family was important to her and he wanted her to have that. That explanation would have been fine if he did that the moment he could.
The fact that it took her finding him I think is what bugs her the most. She wouldn’t have ever gotten that closure. He may have been fine to never try to go after her and live in his misery and try to make a life with Tamara instead, but he didn’t try to give Emma the peace of mind about what really happened either. It’s not fun to confront someone when you’re expecting them to hate you, but he did have good reasons for what he did and he should have at least tried to put himself in her shoes, especially knowing what it felt like – and he had centuries to remember his mother choosing not to take him with her.
Which is what brings me back to the conversation in Manhattan where he did tell her what happened with Pinocchio but still wanted her to go and quickly so that Rumple wouldn’t find him. I suppose at this point he had already made up his mind about not going to find her and had chosen to move on and I commend him for sticking to that even though Tamara is EVIL, but he didn’t even confirm that he loved her too back then but just felt that it was the right thing to do, even when she told him how much it hurt because she loved him so much (and she was so obviously hurt and pouring out her heart about her feelings from back then and he never backed that up).
Again, I do appreciate that he was in a bad place and didn’t think he had a shot but it’s that lack of faith in them as a couple that is so infuriating to me. Other couples on the show have proven to us that they would do whatever it takes for the ones they love, where he continues to leave (or sacrifice himself in some way) absolutely everyone. It’s all he knows and he hasn’t had the best role models, but every time someone offers him a family, he ends up leaving it one way or another. It makes sense that he was trying to hold on to Tamara, especially since had promised her everything he’s always wanted and up to that point she hadn’t done anything wrong. He certainly couldn’t see Emma’s jealousy and then kick Tamara to the curb. It’s the lack of faith in the first place that upsets me.
Emma has a hard time letting anyone in because she’s been abandoned and it took her a long time with Snowing but she got there so there’s definitely hope. I think one of the uphill climbs will be that she IS back around Snowing. She knows their story and saw them fight (and continue to fight) to be together no matter what. Charming’s “What’s 28 years when you have eternal love?” and “I will always find you” and watching her parents fight SO hard to be together makes anybody who hasn’t fought pale in comparison. Whether that’s fair or not doesn’t change the fact that that’s what she’s seeing in front of her. She’s surrounded by and is the product of TL and sees how it works and in some aspects, it’s the exact opposite of her relationship with Neal.
David screwed up but got his Charming memories back right before leaving town. He could have sat there and said “well, Snow will never forgive me for the Kathryn/Abigail thing, better leave now” and instead chose to have *faith* and *trust* in their relationship and that they could overcome anything. Emma witnessed all of this. She even says way back in 1×06 “It’s one thing to say that he wants you but it’s another to actually make a choice.” Emma fights for those she loves, just like Charming does, and I think she’ll have a hard time accepting this so quickly with him saying that he was too afraid to try so just didn’t. That’s not how real, true love looks to her at this point in her life because she’s seen it and knows what it can be.
She’s had her moments of weakness and almost leaving (just like Charming and Hook and Neal) but the difference is that Charming got to the edge of town and Emma got to the edge of town and Hook had his ship almost out of sight but they all came back and fought for Snow and Henry and Hook came back to help save a town full of people who hated and betrayed him (on behalf of Emma and Bae). Neal knew when he could come back and fight for it when Emma would have her family back and everything would be alright and he chose not to – that is a stark difference for me.
Charming had no problem waiting 28 years, Hook’s been waiting centuries to avenge the woman he loved and was fine with waiting the 28 years in that dome thing Cora put up, and Neal had to wait what, 12? and chose not to try to make it work. Emma’s been fighting for family her whole life and has finally found it and will now fight for them no matter what. All Neal had of family at this point was Emma and the dream of the life they wanted to have together and promised her that dream and then left (for good reasons) and never went back when it was safe to do so and explain that. Choosing to stay with Tamara is admirable because he did promise her a life too, but that was giving up on the dream of the life he promised to Emma from before – a dream that left her searching for him for 2 years in Tallahassee.
Emma fought tooth and nail for Henry to save him. She told Rumple that she would go even farther than it takes because that’s who she is, she fights and fights hard no matter what. I’m not sure if she’s wired to understand people who walk away when they say they want something, especially knowing what it feels like to be abandoned. In fact I think it hurts her more because one of the things that really tied her with Neal is the fact that they were both abandoned and wanted to save each other from being alone. To have someone who knows what it feels like do that to her was excruciating and the last straw before her walls went up. It seemed, (from the brief highlight reel that we got in Tallahassee) that she opened up to him fairly quickly and I’m sure that common bond was a huge part of it. That would have been a huge slap in the face, regardless of the reasons, but the reasons would have helped. That quote to MM from back in S1 about wanting something vs choosing to do something about it speaks volumes to me about Emma’s character which is why I have trouble believing she’d be so OK with this so quickly *at this point.*
My point about being 2nd choice is that I agree on Neal’s side that Emma was his first choice, but he gave up on that first choice, moved on to choice #2 and choice #2 is what Emma is seeing in front of her. She’s seeing Neal side with Tamara on everything, even though she thinks he’s lying to her about never believing in her lying ability. If Emma truly thinks that Neal did believe in her ability, and she did call him out on that, then she is left with knowing he knows he should side with her and at least question it and is choosing to defend Tamara to the bitter end and ignore everything he ever knew or trusted of Emma. WE know that he didn’t really have a choice but this is all that Emma sees and that’s gotta hurt. So I didn’t really mean that Emma IS the second choice, but that she may feel like it even if she does believe he cared about her the whole time. His actions speak differently.
I realize there wasn’t a lot of time between finding out that Tamara was up to no good and the ILYs since the two events happened back to back thanks to the portal. I do however feel that it rushed everything and there wasn’t a lot of build up to that moment. There was obvious jealousy along the way, but as much as Emma waits til the last second to declare feelings, it still seemed VERY rushed to me for SF given that it was immediately after Neal’s relationship with Tamara ended (and very badly and not by Neal’s choice). I didn’t see that coming and felt a lack of build up to make that moment really payoff and seem legitimate for the people they are today and not just the idea of what they once were. If anything it felt more like closure than the start of something, especially since they both basically acknowledged the idea he was about to die. It felt like they were finally BOTH admitting that they felt something for each other once and this was their goodbye, without having to address any of the issues along the way because they did genuinely have feelings and it was nice to finally hear him say that he felt that way too.
I’m sure it will be brought up to help them move forward when he returns because he’ll use that to point out she should go easier on him, like he did with the necklace (and we still haven’t seen one word about the car *shakes head*) so it’ll be a starting point, but I don’t think things will be swept under the rug as quickly once it’s clear he’s alive and well. She’ll be happy to see him, but so far her main concern has been zeroed in on Henry (how to tell him about Neal, and then him being kidnapped) and that takes priority over any romantic feelings (and she’s excellent at pushing anything emotional to the side indefinitely).
I’m really really hopeful that we see him fighting really hard to come after her and get back to his family and that it makes me want to root for him with her more. I like the character and have hope for him, my issues truly just stem around his relationship with Emma. The only time I’ve ever felt like he actually fought for her was when he went back to the apartment and interrupted Rumple. He did have a sword and fight side by side with her in Gold’s shop, but he jumped out of the way and Charming jumped in front of Emma when a fireball was thrown her way.
I’m not sure how many obstacles they can endure when everything so far was mostly against the things that Emma seems to need in her life as it stands today (her needs were very different as a teenager). Their relationship in the past was sweet, but I feel like they’re different people now and the Emma that we’ve gotten to know over the last couple of seasons isn’t the same girl she was when she was with Neal. At times I feel like Emma would be reverting when she’s so awesome as the person she is now. When Emma thought about running away from all the craziness in SB, MM said the following in 1×21: “And running is what’s best for him [Henry]? Or is that what’s best for you? You’re reverting, Emma, into the person you were before you got here; and I thought you’d changed.” Which to me says “I thought you were better than that and you’re just becoming the person you were before” and that’s basically how I feel *currently* going back to Neal without much fuss would come across. It’s a sweet story if they can find their way back, I just need it to be realistic. The real world is not a fairy tale and Emma spent 99% of her life in the real world. Her life is not as cut & dried as some of the others are.
They also seem to me to want different things other than to be in Henry’s life and I really do believe that they are different people now and need to learn to co-exist for Henry’s sake. Maybe there will be something more and maybe there won’t. Right now for me, they still love each other and a part of them always will, I’m just not sure it’s really past the *idea* of loving each other at this point – and trust me, the idea of loving someone hurts just as much and feels just as real at the time. Emma thinking he’s dead may lighten her up a bit on some of these things, especially the stuff prior to Manhattan. With her walls up though, mostly because of him, I don’t see her forgetting everything else, especially after what Tamara almost did to the town and has now done to her son. It’s gotta hurt her that of all the people he could move on with to replace her while saying he was in love with her the whole time, it had to be Tamara.
They have an uphill climb but it’s certainly not impossible. I think Emma has gotten closure on the past stuff and it’s more present day that will be an issue. I agree with H&K that they do still have feelings for each and I really feel that a part of Emma will always love Neal no matter what which is why he was so influential on her. I don’t see that going away, especially with him being Henry’s father. I just also don’t see that as confirmation yet that he’s her true love and they’re meant to be together. The show has proven that Henry needs his entire dysfunctional family and contrary to some opinions, that Henry needs all of them including both Emma AND Regina. (I can’t stand the argument that they have to be together for Henry’s sake – be in love for being in love’s sake, not because Henry exists, that’s not healthy for anyone. Likewise, Emma grew up in the real world and with that in mind, Henry is super lucky to have everyone in his life to begin with, considering how much they hate each other. The fact that his parents are at least currently separated but both in his life and willing to work together on his behalf is more than most kids in the real world get so hopefully, even if it stays that way, he will learn to be satisfied with that as it it may be all that Emma has to offer him).
I have faith in the writers that with more screentime, the more we know the better I’ll like them. They’ve set up a great triangle and I see compelling arguments for both sides and it should be interesting to watch it play out. I’d like to think that at the end, we’ll all be able to root for Emma’s true love story because it will be epic and beautiful and shown to us enough that it’s obvious and none of these lingering issues remain and I think that will be the case. I truly do see the appeal of both sides, I just have a preference that is somewhat unpopular around here.
So glad we can have these civil debates though. I’m sick of being lumped in with airheads that just think Colin is hotter than MRJ and therefore can’t imagine him with anyone other than Emma *eye roll* (We all have our reasons to ship and I can’t stand superficial reasons – I don’t just love CS because I have issues with SF and therefore need someone else for Emma to be with. Likewise, I don’t ship Neal off just to get rid of him to pave a path for CS to happen. I like having backups just in case so I don’t get my hopes up too high, and I ship because I see potential and loveliness in something with actual reasons, not for my health – and certainly not to be constantly attacked for loving something. Believe me, it would be much easier if I were madly in love with SF!)
The Snowing/Abigail triangle was obvious, the MAP triangle *should* be obvious as a TLK woke Aurora up etc. It seems odd to me that if we’re supposed to be rooting for SF to get back together and watch them overcome obstacles like the other “set in stone” couples that have also been in triangles, that they would put such a great option in there that has lots of potential and make people fall in love with the pairing only to ditch it because Neal’s “alive” – which frankly isn’t a reason – but since they like to throw curveballs I really just don’t know (and contrary to some opinions, nobody else knows either except for H&K).
Emma’s is the one love story that we can see play out and not officially know who it will be because we haven’t grown up knowing her story. I certainly don’t think either side of the triangle is delusional and (sadly) both sides have reason to have high hopes which means some will be very hurt in the end. I hope eventually that they all find happiness and that fans of both men will be happy with who they end up with (as difficult as it is to imagine at the moment).
Keeper of Hook's Trenchcoat.