I will keep processing these very long posts when I’m a bit more alert but I will definitely be keeping all of these things in mind when I do my rewatch. I’m hoping to enjoy Neal more for sure as I do see him as a viable candidate even though I still prefer another option at this time.
The point I was trying to make about Emma’s quote to MM in 1×06 about wanting someone vs making a choice to do something about it still reads to me as Neal said he wanted her all that time but didn’t show her that. He chose not to wait for her and come back to say it (and never had any intention of doing so). All she wants is to not be abandoned anymore. She made the comment to MM because David was technically with Kathryn at the time but said he was leaving her because he wanted to be with MM. He wasn’t just *saying* he wanted to be with MM, he was making the choice to go and be with her. Neal says he regretted it every day and wanted to be with her, but he’s only in her life now because she found him (and under horrible circumstances. I agree that that hurts her more and is something that she will remember and have to find a way to process to move past it).
So I’m not sure that that would read as a positive choice to her – his past choice makes sense because of the greater good. Choosing not to come to her after that, even if he thought it would hurt both of them more, was still a choice to not give her the benefit of the doubt and have faith in them. Emma doesn’t like being controlled and once again, she wasn’t left to make up her own mind about things because he made it up for her by not giving her the chance.
The fact that she waited in Tallahassee for 2 years shows deep dedication on her part, but it also has to hurt so much more because she did fight to believe in them and even thinking he set her up was waiting for him when she got out, hoping beyond hope that he would show up and everything would be fine. I think in her mind she’s given him a lot of chances to set things right over the years and if we focus solely on post-initial choice to go along with August, then he still has a lot of things to make up for.
(As a viewer, knowing that not only did August tell him originally that he would send a postcard, but literally right before August showed up in SB he reminded him and again and then immediately after that he started something with Tamara is what infuriates me personally. Yes he was more vulnerable to her in that moment because he was thinking about the opportunity to see Emma again and what all that would be like, but he still was SO close and was reminded of that and chose to bail – seeing that 2nd scene of him with August reminding him infuriated me because it wasn’t just the 11 years or whatever it was, it was RIGHT before and he was reminded of it *shakes Neal* – and for the record I’m just as tough on Hook when he does something stupid, or Rumple or anyone else so it’s not a deal-breaker for me, just an annoyance).
I agree that choices are a big thing for Emma and she may learn to appreciate the difficult choice that Neal made back then because it did ultimately reunite her with her family and she’s already come to grips with Snowing for leaving her. I don’t look at it as just choice itself being the important thing but the context as well and we know from her statement that it’s one thing to say you want someone (or regretted leaving them perhaps) but it’s another to actually choose to do something so I don’t see her making it easy for him for moving on because that was a choice he made for both of them, without giving her the option of forgiving him. Neal knows what it’s like to hear that someone regretted leaving him but never tried to do anything to fix that. Emma tried to fix it when he HE left HER and he never did which is what bugs me.
I do realize that Emma has left someone before too (Henry) but once he brought himself back into her life, she didn’t leave. She stayed because she was worried about him and eventually he became the center of her world. She’s not perfect either by any means and Henry had to find her, just like she had to find Snowing and Neal. The difference I’m seeing is that Emma stayed for Henry, and Neal was still ready for her to leave his life again if it meant keeping him from Rumple, no matter how much it hurt him or was obviously hurting her by him telling her to go.
Now, I will say that I was cheering for him when he went back to make sure that Emma was safe from Rumple. That was the first time as an adult that I was actually able to root for him and it was before he knew about Henry so he gets major points for that and I think it will help him garner some goodwill along the way. Emma also saw that he still had the dreamcatcher etc and his reaction to the necklace (I want the reaction to the car darnit, I really thought these two would TALK as they walked back from wherever Cora sent them but nope). So there’s definitely a foundation to build on. However Neal still returned to SB to save his dad and stayed to be in Henry’s life. The main focus right now for everyone, including Neal, is Henry. If he didn’t feel like he needed to be in Henry’s life, he wouldn’t have asked his fiancee to come to SB and try to make a go of it there (in front of the woman he loves). I honestly think it would have better for everyone if he was just honest with himself and had broken up with Tamara (ignoring her evil agenda – but really, it’s not generally a good idea to marry someone when you’re in love with someone else).
As for the 28 years vs 11 years thing: it was a bad situation for everyone. Charming was prepared to do that for the good of all and for his family no matter how much it hurt and had faith that no matter what, Emma would save them all and then Snowing would be reunited. The point I was making about him almost leaving but coming back when he got his memories – yes, it was exceptional circumstances so I get why it may not be considered a direct parallel, but he still knew he had done horrible things even though they were out of his control and immediately went back to her (not knowing at the time that she too had done things and they were fine) but the point was that he knew he hadn’t been the kindest to MM and hurt her deeply but still went back and believed in them.
Neal had good reasons for leaving Emma for the greater good before, knew he hurt her, and it brought her back together with her family (just like them leaving her before did too) but he didn’t come back and apparently never intended to since he moved on with his life. That’s the way it would look to me if I were her. Charming came back knowing he wounded MM even though he never wanted to do that. Things were more IN Neal’s control than that after the curse was broken, and he chose differently. All Emma knows is what she sees and the people she loves that fight to be together even when they’re forced apart for a bit, and the *belief* and *faith* that they can overcome anything and that their love is strength and nobody can keep them apart. The moment they could be back together, Snowing made it happen. The moment that Neal could run back to Emma and explain everything, he didn’t.
I do think Emma still believes in Neal and I hope that it isn’t just the younger version of herself being hopeful that everything will be perfect when they have a lot of real issues and deep wounds to deal with. I don’t want it to be unrealistic and I certainly don’t want her to buy into the idea of something and hurt everyone including herself by finally realizing that it’s not real *now* – I’ll be happy for her if the younger version of herself finally gets everything she’s ever wanted, I just don’t want to lose how awesome she has become because of everything that she went through and going back *too easily* would do that for me. I also don’t want her to think she has to try to make anyone else, like Henry, happy or that she owes it to anyone to try but rather chooses to if that’s what happens. I would really hate for her to get Neal’s hopes up (and Henry’s and Rumple’s etc etc) and then come to the realization that it’s just not what it once was and they’re different people now.
I certainly don’t want a mirror situation to what happened with Milah/Hook because I’m already dreading Neal’s reaction to seeing Emma & Hook be close, even if it’s just as friends. He blames Hook for “taking” Milah away from him (I blame Milah for this, really hate her), but he already thinks of Hook as the pirate who broke up his family and I don’t see him reacting well at all to Hook being in Emma’s life in any capacity, much less Henry’s (even though his last choice of love interest tried to kill everyone and kidnapped Henry who Hook is doing his best to save right now, even putting aside his vendetta with Rumple which is on Bae’s mother’s behalf for crying out loud). Nobody is perfect, I’m just seriously dreading a confrontation that isn’t even about Emma or her ability to choose but rather the implication that Hook is once again destroying Neal’s hopes of a happy family/life. I would much much rather have Emma push them both aside and make a choice and follow her heart than feel like she has to at least try with Neal and then lead him on and break him again.
I’m really quite torn on how the triangle has to play out just because I feel like if they wanted us to root for Neal they wouldn’t have setup awesome potential for Hook, and likewise if they wanted to show the difference between Neal and Hook they wouldn’t set up Neal as the fall guy who just keeps getting stomped on by life. He can’t seem to catch a break and I feel for him I do, I just don’t care for his relationship with Emma and I see loads of potential in why Hook would be good for her. I won’t go into all of that here as we’re discussing an actual former couple and most don’t want to hear it anyway, but just as SF fans see a much more complex situation with Neal, I see more in Hook than just good looks and innuendos. Thankfully Emma seems to see through all of that with both of them so her choice should be far less upsetting than it will be to fans.
I find it rather amusing that we are far more invested in her love life than she will ever be. I fully expect whoever gets hurt by the triangle to move on to somebody better suited for them later on. After all, if Rumple/Milah hadn’t broken up, we’d never have RumBelle. Sometimes good (or not so good as the case may be) things fall apart so that better things can fall together and I have hope that both Neal and Hook will find who they are truly meant to be with, though I strongly suspect one of them will end up with Emma – if they throw somebody else into the mix I have no idea how that could possibly work with 2 huge fanbases already in place!).
I think once they’re all reunited, Emma will push all emotional problems to the side and focus on ____ (insert whatever bigger picture problem here). That’s what she did with Snowing, and I fully expect her to need more time to come to grips with Neal being alive and what that means in her world right now than just seeing him. Knowing Emma, she probably will have gotten closer to Hook along the way and will now take a step back from both and put off choosing for awhile. I don’t see her ditching one for the other and I doubt she will have fully started anything with Hook at this point but maybe be close to it.
I think we can all agree we want it to be realistic and watch them fight to overcome their obstacles in order to get the payoff of them reuniting if that’s what happens. Whether that will happen or not remains to be seen, but I think we all appreciate Emma and want the best for her, whatever that ends up being.
They haven’t been together in a long time but she now knows her instincts weren’t wrong back then when she felt that connection with him. This may lead her closer to Hook in some capacity because we know she initially wanted to trust him but was too afraid to because of her past with Neal. That all started before Neal came back into the picture so it’s not her finding a rebound and she’s got more important things to focus on anyway. It does however help with her instinct of trust and may let her open back up again with Hook around as she was already drawn to him earlier but afraid to trust herself.
It sets up the triangle beautifully because it gives Emma the chance to finally trust herself after all this time and let someone in and she will probably be fairly close to him by the time Neal comes back into the picture. Whether that means romantically or not remains to be seen, but she’s shown time and time again that she wants to trust Hook but has been afraid to. I think at this point both Hook and Emma have accepted that they understand each other and get to each other in a way that others don’t (she sees through his facade, he can tell when there’s something deeper going on in her reasoning and asks about it etc) and there is a small foundation of trust that is starting to build there. Right now her priority is Henry so I don’t see her jumping into anything with Hook just because she believes Neal to be dead. Nor do I think the moment he shows up that they will instantly be a couple. There is however a chance for either pairing to progress because in getting past that hurdle of not officially being able to trust herseslf, Emma is now free to move forward in a relationship (which she is not remotely good at doing) with either of them.
It’s going to be a long road to finding her TL and I can see her being legitimately torn because part of her will always love Neal and part of her has been drawn to Hook from the beginning and he hasn’t put her through half the stuff Neal has and he appreciates the woman she is *today* and tells her so. Neal can absolutely make up for that and get to know who she is now and appreciate and love her for it just as much, not saying he can’t. All I’m saying is that there is someone else in the picture who she has a connection with as well and they understand each other. She brings out the best in him and he gets her to open up and answer things she doesn’t even want to admit to herself much less anyone else and she doesn’t hesitate to answer him now. She’s an open book with him but still very guarded with most others. We haven’t seen her open up that quickly and this is someone she didn’t want to let herself trust because she’s been burned in the past but is now trusting to help her save the most important person in her life: Henry.
To discount either side and its potential does nobody any good because both are compelling stories. We’ve seen Emma in love with Neal in the past and we’ve seen how well she & Hook get each other and open up to each other now. If she were just meeting him I’d understand the problem but she wanted to trust him and felt drawn to him before Neal even re-entered the picture. Tallahassee was showing us why she couldn’t let herself trust Hook but that she was drawn to him. It paralleled the relationships perfectly and what she expected to have happen because of that which is why she left first. She couldn’t risk it, but she wanted to. So while CS isn’t “legitimate” as of yet, I can’t definitively say 100% (and those who know me know I’m super indecisive & afraid to get hurt so I don’t back a couple I think are doomed) that I think SF is still IN love and has to happen. It could, it definitely could. I just happen to believe that she does have another very good option and with everything that’s happened, the door is still open.
She won’t start anything actually romantic until Henry is safe and sound and presumably after both men are back in the picture (and they have their own issues to deal with regarding each other before anything can happen – they ALL need to get along for Henry’s sake. Emma has offered Hook the chance to be a part of something and I don’t see her tossing him to the side even as a friend just because Neal has issues with him. She’s not one to let people tell her who she can have in her life, much like Henry. They’ll all have to learn to get along).
That doesn’t mean it’s entirely out of the realm of possibility that Emma will let herself get close to Hook in the meantime and want to pursue something with him in the future once Neal is back, nor does it close the door to a reunion with Neal. This is Emma – she’ll just push both away and deal with it in her own sweet time. One of the things I do feel is key though is Hook’s comment from his first introduction “A man unwilling to fight for what he wants deserves what he gets” – we don’t yet know if Emma agrees with his statement, but I’m inclined to believe so because SHE fights for what she wants and the others she is surrounded by do the same and will literally do whatever it takes to get somebody they love back (even if it takes 300 years and a curse and a lot of manipulation and killing to do so *shakes Rumple*). In fact I think that comment from Hook sets up why he could potentially be a compelling choice for Emma. Whether she chooses that or not remains to be seen. As H&K like to remind us “In all life, there are the people that are right for you and there are the people that are wrong for you, and then there are the people that you just choose.” So it could literally be anything and as Jane so perfectly said the other day, all the pairings have possibility and “make sense” though it’s easy to miss the finer points of any pairing if they’re not your initial cup of tea.
I do still feel like the ILY for SF was rushed (even though many were waiting for it for ages because they do obviously have feelings / remember loving each other and it hurts to see someone you felt so deeply for move on). For me, it wasn’t the culmination of all the jealousy, but rather the fact that his previous relationship JUST ended (and it wasn’t done by him AND it all played out right in front of Emma). It JUST ended and then he turns around and says ILY to Emma and it *finally* sounded like he did regret it all that time and can only now face up to it because he thinks he’s dying – but it was still rushed because there simply wasn’t any time.
Emma may have been knocked out / biding her time for a bit but all of this played out right in front of her. Neal was obviously hurt by finding out everything with Tamara was a lie (and on principle I agree just because he’s been through enough and didn’t need another person in his life pretending to love him) but after being so affected by that turns around and says ILY to someone else? Emma needed to hear it and there wasn’t any time really, but he was so hurt only moments ago on finding out that his relationship with someone else is a lie. That’s easy to overlook when you believe in things as much as Emma does and in thinking he’s about to die, but it’s another rotten situation where Emma’s the one that gets hurt by it because she will probably remember that someday when she moves past being happy he’s alive. One of her last moments with him before that is seeing him be hurt that Tamara, the woman he loved and needed so badly he asked her to come to SB to be with him (in front of Emma) break his heart, shoot him, then send him through a portal and it took all of that to get him to tell her what she told him ages ago? She opened the door wide open in Manhattan and he even could have clarified it with something along the lines of “I loved you too but I was doing what was best for everyone and it gave you what you wanted: your family back” and even gone so far as to say “but that was a long time ago and I’ve moved on and am engaged now” but he obviously didn’t want to have to mention that part. He could have easily acknowledged that he did love her *back then* just like she had just done without stepping on Tamara’s toes in the slightest.
If he really wanted to make the point that he wasn’t just using Emma which is what she was accusing him of and getting upset with him about, he could have said it (and clarified it was back then so as not to upset his relationship with his fiancee)and he didn’t, but it took Tamara breaking his heart and trying to kill him that did the trick? If I were Emma I’d be ticked.
In fact that will probably help set up the legitimacy of the triangle in S3 because if she does get close to Hook and is presented a chance with someone who knows and appreciates the woman she is, hasn’t done half the emotional damage to her that Neal has and is willing to fight for her instead of hiding in fear and not being able to say how he really feels, that’s a pretty great option for someone who needs to hear those things. We know Hook can love just as deeply as anyone else. He’s spent how many years trying to avenge the death of a woman he only had a few years with? And his whole thing is “A man unwilling to fight for what he wants deserves what he gets.” If I were Emma, after everything I’d been through, I would find that VERY appealing. (And no those aren’t the only things I see/like about Hook – I won’t go into it all here because this is a legitimate couples seen on screen thing and we’re discussing SwanFire which makes me happy because I do want to like them more if I need to in the future, but these few things do contrast with what Emma is used to and worth noting).
I’m not sure if closure was the right word on my part because I didn’t mean that it was necessarily the end of all things but rather that it was closure on a chapter of the past where she was doubting that he ever cared about her even though she felt so certain that he did. It was nice to actually hear him say it and when things have affected you for so long and made you doubt yourself over the years, it’s nice to get confirmation that you weren’t imagining things back then and more importantly that your instincts are right – that’s a huge thing for Emma as she relies on those and we have seen her go against them because she wants to believe in something / is afraid to believe because of prior experiences. Whether it moves them forward or helps her as a person more forward because she finally got that confirmation, it needed to happen. So I’m not sure if it’s closure in general or not, but in that moment it may have felt like it was the best they could do in thinking he was dying and that is probably the mindset she is going into at this moment.
There just wasn’t a lot of time between how broken up he is that his last relationship ended and his professing his love to Emma. While I do believe his love IS real for Emma, it still felt a little out of whack just because even though he was professing it to his first choice, she was still getting sloppy seconds *at that moment* after having to watch the whole thing play out! It’s bad enough having to hear “Well, I always loved you and just was too afraid to think I had a chance so I moved on and picked very badly but I’m ok with it because that means I didn’t have to hurt her to follow my heart and come back to you” but it’s another thing entirely to watch him be devastated that the woman he loved was lying to him and then turn around right after that “breakup” and have him say that he loves her. There just wasn’t a gap and I felt like there needed to be but the circumstances didn’t allow for it. It’s another reason I don’t think it can pick up right where it left off even if she’s thrilled he’s alive, just because she’ll have that moment in the back of her mind as much as the one where he says he loves her.
Looking at it from Emma’s point of view, I’m sure she feels like she’s been slapped in the face a few times because she never doubted them. She fought for them back then (and again after jail in waiting in Tallahassee for 2 years) and I think in her mind, especially after seeing Snowing have such faith when given a time table that they would be together again and could overcome anything, that knowing he had the chance to come back and chose to go off and make a new life is going to sting and not be easily forgotten.
I’m not sure Emma cares for the fate/destiny argument, much like Belle. Rumple is the one that got that into Neal’s head but he should know better than anyone it’s the choices that you make. He based all of it on the Seer and it became self-fulfilling prophecies. So I’m not sure I buy the fate/destiny thing other than the fact that Neal mentioned it. In the bar in Manhattan he simply said that something good must have come out of their relationship, that there must have been a bigger thing to it all – and that was obviously Henry. Whether that was in the grand design of things (which may be, since PP had a picture of him long before he was born, not to mention that Henry brought Emma to SB), then Neal just backed that up in saying that they were meant to be *at least for a time* for Henry to exist. He never pretended that it had to be anything more than that, though clearly he was hoping deep down that it was because he did focus in on the necklace etc. The feelings are definitely there and I don’t discount that they exist at all. I’m just not sure that beyond having a past and now being there for Henry’s sake, that there *has* to be anything more to it.
Emma is very much not a person who lets others tell her what to do. She hates being manipulated and the more it happens, the more upset she gets. Her quote to Ashley in 1×04 about the world telling you who you are and having to stand up to them and say “No, this is who I am” is very telling about her and her whole life she’s been manipulated. I don’t see her going down a path willingly to just fall into that. I think for Emma it is about the choices people make so she will struggle for a time in the triangle because of this, but ultimately if she does go back to Neal, it will be her choice to do so and it won’t be because of fate or destiny or just ignoring every bad thing ever and wiping it under the rug. She is her own person & prides herself on that.
Right now, at this moment, I’m not sure going back is the right choice. I didn’t ship her with anyone until partway through season 2 (except Graham *sniff* but that wasn’t hardcore for me either). She’s a tough person and deserves an epic romance (and I think she’ll get it for sure), I’m just not sure backtracking is the answer. Yes there are extenuating circumstances. I know he couldn’t just ditch Tamara, but if he was being truthful with himself he could have said his heart belonged to someone else and always did and he was wrong to try and pretend otherwise. It wouldn’t have made him the greatest guy in the world, but in the long run I’m very against him marrying someone he doesn’t love if he’s in love with someone else (and Rumple himself pointed out that Neal couldn’t marry someone while his heart belonged to Emma, just like King George did when Charming wanted to be with Snow).
As for characters shipping they can do whatever they want. Rumple ships SF (with a bias) and Cora pointed out that Hook chose Emma “and the consequences of that decision” so I don’t really care much what they say as it is ultimately up to Emma and even if everyone in her life hates her decision initially, she will find a way to make them accept it – much like everyone else has had to fight to get people to accept it. None of the TL couples have had it easy and there has always been someone against it happening. The same will be true of Emma no matter who she chooses because they’ll either worry about her with Hook because they don’t see the side of him that Emma does, or they’ll worry about her going back to Neal and getting hurt by the same person again. (I’d like to think that he wouldn’t hurt her again and don’t think he would intentionally – just saying that it’s a common worry with going back to someone that essentially wrecked a good portion of your life and made you miserable for years, regardless of the reason. I’d be more worried if nobody ever batted an eyelash at either choice.)
I certainly don’t think these are insurmountable odds by any means and that’s why the triangle is set up so well because both options have good arguments (Jane herself said that what she loves is that all of the pairings “make sense” and there’s lots of possibilities). I won’t argue CS here because it’s pointless in a thread with couples that we have seen on screen and it would just upset the majority of people at this point but I hope that with more screentime, Hook is presented in a more positive light as well Neal. Both need to win people over for the triangle to make sense to the general public to relate to Emma and I think in time both will. (As I said previously, the other triangles had obvious endings but Emma is a new character not set in stone and therefore the only new journey we can watch playout without knowing exactly where it will end up.)
I think some opened up to Hook a bit more in the finale now that we’re not seeing as much of the facade he puts up and I hope that whatever his relationship with Emma ends up being, that people accept him more. I expect the triangle to be in full swing by the time they’re all reunited, not because Emma thinks Hook is attractive and thinks Neal is dead, but because he is genuinely a good option for her and it’s being presented to her now (and started out before Neal came back into her life – she’s not just meeting him now, which is key) before she has the option of having Neal back in her life. She’s been through so much that I think she’ll be truly torn and I really hope the audience will be as well.
I know for me personally, as much as I love CS, I was mildly torn at first and then other things have bugged me post-Manhattan but every once in awhile I see a good argument or nice video that reminds me of the good aspects of SF too so that I won’t be nearly as upset if it has to happen. I just hope the same is true in reverse and that regardless of who Emma ends up with, we’ll all be happy for her. I think we can all agree that she’s an awesome character and deserves something good in her life after everything she has been through.
Regardless of who she ends up with, she’ll have to shake the other one in order to fully commit. Both men will be in her life for the forseeable future either way, and they all have to get along. Neal will still be in her life regardless as he is there for Henry. Before she can fully move on with anyone she has to make peace with her relationship with him, even if it’s so that she & Neal can move forward – their past is what stops her from having good relationships with anyone. Likewise, if she does form an attachment with Hook (which I think is well on its way to happening) then she will have to deal with that as well before making a choice between them (another reason I think she’ll push both back and try to evaluate things).
I do expect them to find love if Emma doesn’t choose them. So far I haven’t found anyone I’d like to see Hook with (I don’t buy the Regina thing – yes they’d be hot together but they’d also be toxic; and we haven’t actually seen Ariel yet but I’ve heard some interesting ways that that could work as well). Likewise, Neal reminds me of Daniel in that they are sweet and funny and want a simple life and so for now, I’m on board with the *idea* of FireQueen. They want similar things and he would be a good influence on her rather than bringing her further into darkness. They have both been manipulated by Rumple and had their lives wrecked by him / magic so they have some common bonds, not to mention that she raised his son. We haven’t seen enough yet but as I said I like the *idea* – coincidentally I liked the *idea* of SF last season before we were properly introduced to Neal or Hook. Sometimes things change when we’re shown more and that could very well be the case for any pairings. My hope is that by the end they make us fall in love with each love story on the show, whether it becomes our favorite or not.
Phee I LOVE your comment about Colin & MRJ. It is SO refreshing to hear somebody say that argument can be thrown out the window! (I can’t blame you for lusting after Colin but clearly it is NOT a legit reason to ship someone and it doesn’t diminish the possibility of SF, nor does it promote the likelihood of CS. I certainly don’t ship based on looks and I happen to think that MRJ has his moments of adorableness too).
RG – And with that my magical mice are demanding extra cheese and a nap. I’m not even sure if they’re making sense anymore they’re so worn out! (They are, however, demanding their own backstory which I will have to work on at some point). My brain = fried.
Keeper of Hook's Trenchcoat.