Home › Forums › Once Upon a Time › Character discussion › Favourite legitimate couples › Re: Favourite legitimate couples
So um, good to know in case this carries over to the new forums: there is a character limit! Which…I have apparently reached (AHH!) If anybody is wondering what the current character limit is, try 60k which is roughly 19 pages (and that is CHARACTER and not WORD limit, just to clarify). *shakes head* Hopefully I can put just as much behind my July CampNaNoWriMo project as I do in one day in these forums cause I am far more prolific when I don’t need to be so! Editing this down a bit & breaking it into 2 parts.
PART 1:
Again thanks for all the responses and the civilness of this thread! I’ll echo RG here when I say that I’ve tried many times other places and it’s just hitting your head against a brick wall. Also seriously, I appreciate taking the time to read everything but please don’t feel the need to comment on every little thing. I know I ramble on a lot (it’s a writer thing, sorry!) but I appreciate that people have actually taken time to read what I said. I won’t take offense, promise! These posts can get crazy long & out of control and I know some stuff is probably rehashing the same old thing after awhile as we don’t have anything new to go on yet.
I realize that people don’t read as much into certain things while others base everything on it and that’s fine. We all see things differentlt and we’ll have to wait and see how things play out in the end. To most things there are two ways to look at it and I know for many who love either side of the triangle, they just don’t see ANY buildup for the other.
Thanks for at least acknowleding it as one interpretation of events. As we’ve seen throughout this thread there are many ways to look at things and some put more stock in things than others, but with Hook & Emma they *keep going back* to the bean and their hands and trust. These are their common themes so when some see that again and again, we do think it means something. (I can also see how people never made the connection or felt like the bean didn’t mean anything. I just know in CS circles, we see that they keep going back to things like that).
He made a point of telling her (and himself) that he was done with her when the bean was shriveled up and useless, but that didn’t last long. Hook is a man who holds a grudge and other than that one time with the shriveled bean in front of Cora – (self preservation mode on multiple levels). His “I’m done with you” is about as convincing as any of Emma’s saying she was completely over Neal.
Hook is impressed with her and doesn’t hold a grudge with her. If anybody else had betrayed him like that, he certainly wouldn’t try to flirt with them after, or turn around because something they said struck a cord with him. He’d be long gone and rightfully so since everyone in town has betrayed him that he’s given the opportunity to do so. He keeps up the Hook facade most of the time but Emma is the only one who gets to see the real him (yes this may because she’s also the only one to try, but she’s betrayed him and he keeps letting her in when we know he can hold a grudge easily). I’m sorry more people don’t see how genuine he is with her but there is a difference that some of see – it’s rare to see him smile for instance, and Emma impresses him and in Tallahassee, when they were working as a team, he literally lit up and was happy, however briefly. Whether that means they’ll be friends or romantic, he is far more open with her and he smiles a lot more – genuine smiles, not innuendo-driven cocky pirateness. That’s one of the things that is so beloved about Tallahassee for CS fans is that he genuinely seems to enjoy her company and is impressed with her (and not afraid to tell her so). He also lets her in – they are open books to one another, and she is the only person in town he cares about on any level at this point.
I agree that Hook doesn’t really know anybody else but I still think he made a point of talking directly to Emma when he said he needed reminding he could care about someone other than himself. It was her offer that reminded him of the one he once made to Bae and I truly believe that it was a combination of the two that brought him back. He may have come back for Bae and he may have come back for Emma, I completely understand why the latter is remotely in question since even after the finale some refuse to see *any* good in Hook and/or potential in a CS setup, but the way they showed all of that made it seem to some of us like it had more significance and it was at least partially Emma that brought him back (whether romantic or not.)
He knows what it’s like o be in her shoes in this instance and how badly he wanted Bae to accept his offer and Bae’s refusal was his last straw. This is a real chance for him and he believed that Emma meant it. Her words echoed his own from long ago and brought those feelings back to the surface. Again just my interpretation putting myself in Hook’s shoes for a minute.
He’s been out for himself for a long time and I agree, it’s very helpful to him to find the one person who can help him believe in himself again, even if it’s just as a friend. Yes he had a very contemplative moment with Regina trying to convince her that maybe she was heading down the wrong path and it didn’t work (and then she tried to kill him and he had no problem letting her die to sacrifice herself for everyone else if she wanted to). I don’t see hope for these two for anything much simply because together, in their depths of despair and revenge and all of it, they would be toxic. To me it would be like having Rumple with Cora. Hook showed us that he is realizing how bad of an idea wasting your life on vengeance is and is moving away from all of that. I have hope that Regina will do the same and is a little bit, but I don’t see these two being best buddies anytime soon, if ever (and frankly I hope not – I see nothing positive in their interaction other than it shows that Hook is yet another person trying to help Regina out and she once again didn’t take the offer). I have hope she will in the future, but both are easily swayed to darkness and need someone lighter to help keep them on the right path. Hook is realizing that right now and I hope it continues, whereas because of Regina’s desire to get Henry back, she may slip and do “whatever it takes” which could cause conflict with the others on the ship. They all want the same thing, but will differ on their methods and I could see Regina and Rumple going up against the Charmings for sure. I’m not sure what Hook will do but I’d like to see him show he’s learned his lesson rather than pull a Regina.
I can definitely see where people are coming from on wanting Hook & Emma to be at least good friends as they understand each other (again, in a more positive way than he connects to the villains because she brings out the best in him, and guides him away from that path rather than spiraling like Regina) and am glad SF people at least like the idea of Hook being a part of things (hopefully for both Bae’s and for Emma’s sakes) though I still see it as much more setup to a potential romantic involvement. Emma felt connected to him very early on or she wouldn’t have said what she did when she left him up the beanstalk. It was a practical, strategic move and she could have just said “sorry, needed the headstart”. She was upset about doing that to him because she trusted him and was enjoying the obvious (or not so obvious to some it seems) connection and was afraid to believe in it because of the pain before with Neal and it was paralleled to that relationship.
I can’t just ignore that of all the times they chose to show Emma’s backstory, it was to show her potentially moving on with someone present day but being afraid to because she couldn’t trust her instincts. This was also directly after an episode where we saw Daniel – Regina’s supposed true love tell her to love again so the idea of moving forward and not letting the past dictate your life was mentioned just prior to that, and in fact, since it happened in 2×05 just prior to Emma beginning to interact with Hook in the first place in the same episode she met him. Usually the stories parallel what’s going on in the present day so that we can understand why people react to different things. They chose to show her last real relationship up against her feeling drawn to someone she was too afraid to trust directly because of how things ended up with Neal, to the point that instead of letting him leave her somewhere, she jumped the gun and locked him up the beanstalk. If she hadn’t said what she did, I can completely see why people would say it’s all in our heads even though I think they had great chemistry the whole episode, but the fact remains that she did which at least brings it into question. Still up for debate as with any other line said on the show (especially since some are SO frustrating to work around) but personally I think it’s an important one, especially given the context, not to mention how she said it.
She also didn’t need to let him literally single-handedly bandage her hand but she let him take care of her (just like with Graham) and she didn’t have to pull him into an embrace to keep him from the tripwire, she could have just pulled him back a little. The closeness to him was affecting her and I’m not sure how at least a little bit of tension between them went undetected by so many unless the flashbacks were just too captivating. I agree that in the flashbacks Neal had his moments so I can see why that obviously happened for some (can’t say I personally was too impressed even though I went in expecting to love him once we knew it was Bae because I absolutely love young Bae). I just felt that the tension between Hook & Emma was a little more obvious than it apparently was – hence the confusion I guess. I get why it was obvious that SF were sweet together back in the day before outside forces split them apart and it makes for a sweet story so it was a good starting point for that relationship as well for sure. I was far more torn after Tallahassee (even though I was already in love with CS) and it wasn’t until after that and present day that I really flipped the switch. I definitely felt more connected to what was happening in her life today than what happened years ago other than to how deeply it was affecting her though.
We’ve seen that Hook meant it when he said he wouldn’t have done the same to her because he came back at the end. That reinforced her trust instincts as well because she wanted to trust him and even though she and her family have betrayed him multiple times now, he still came back and is helping them (honestly regardless of the reason: he came back and that’s what she needed, whether he’s a friend or more, she needed someone to do something that she believed that they would). She believed so much in him she didn’t even check the pouch. His coming back proves her instincts (initially and again at the diner where she thought he had accepted her offer) were right about him and had she not betrayed him first, he never would have. Betraying Emma was never part of his plan – even Cora knew this and he likely would not have even hesitated to help Emma and felt the need to run off to save himself in the finale. He asked her what her reasoning was but he had already given her the empty pouch and was still mulling over his options. Everyone there betrayed him, and he very easily could have gone off to save his own skin but he didn’t, thus vindicating her belief in him (and they made an effort to show her reaction to him coming back – he gives her hope, a chance to believe in *something* whether it’s him or her instincts or whatever you want to call it, at a time when she desperately needs some).
I know people hate his innuendos and don’t think he treats Emma iin a special way (and I certainly don’t think he’s in love with her yet) but there was a LOT of built up tension in Tallahassee. The Handwrap (reminiscent of Willabeth in PotC and Rapunel/Flynn in Tangled, also of Graham helping clean her wounds after her fight with Regina), the embrace that she fought against but not hard enough (enough to show she was fighting it, not enough to actually put a stop to it) – let’s face it Emma would just punch somebody if she didn’t want certain types of attention. She certainly threatens it enough. It reminded some of us of when she was so adament that she wasn’t upset by the Graham/Regina stuff (to the point where MM felt the need to tell her she was the only one unaware of her feelings for Graham) but clearly wanted to open up and give Graham a chance and eventually did so (albeit a little too late *sniffle) but all of that piled together is why CSers love Tallahassee just as much as SFs do. Hey at least we can agree on something, right?)
There are a lot of things in their interactions that are completely unnecessary. Hook is perfectly capable of talking to anybody but he focuses on her. True she may be the only one he really knows or likes around there, but they make a point of showing us their reactions to one another constantly. There was so much time that could have been used for something else in the finale and they gave us lots of lingering looks. When they showed reaction shots on the dock right before everyone got on the ship, they made a point of showing Snowing, Rumbelle, & Hook/Emma. That’s 2 canon couples and then one potential one. They didn’t include Regina standing with anyone as a couple. They showed the couples. I feel like there’s *at least* a good foundation for the possibility of something which is what sets up the triangle (and again there’s a much longer list, I’m just addressing the points made here).
I agree that romance is not on anybody’s priority list for right now because the focus is on Henry and I’m sure that Hook does feel some attachment because of Bae but I would like to argue one point and I know Hook had that awkward line to Charming and I hope we get more information on how long Bae was with him because it’s driving me batty but I’m not sure I feel comfortable saying that Bae was ever his son. He was willing to give up his revenge and wanted to raise Bae as his son, but I’m not sure he ever got the chance. To me, based on what we’ve seen so far, it’s similar to Regina & Owen. I do believe he absolutely wanted Bae to be his son back then and I look forward to seeing how their relationship progresses over the years as I really loved what little time they did have together before Bae discovered Milah’s picture, but I think they’re entirely different situations between Hook / Bae & Emma / Henry. Also he didn’t even know Henry was in danger when he first came back to help. In fact Henry would have been the ONLY one safe (as Adam has tweeted that Alexandra wouldn’t have been because she was conceived in FTL *technicalities*)
That whole scene where he was “working with” GOAT reminded me more of his self-preservation mode and when asked if he was in his “absolutely” should have been sending off MAJOR red flags to GOAT because it was not remotely convincing. He knew that what they found on Regina (who he tried to help out but she wasn’t having any of it – yet another time he has made someone an offer and they’ve refused him) was bad for everyone and he didn’t want innocents to suffer. He chose to help long before he ever knew there was any involvement with Bae. He came back at the end after knowing that, but I’m not sure I’d classify that as him and Emma both doing things “for their sons.” I do agree that Henry will be the focus though and I don’t think should CS happen that it will be because one or both are pursuing that anytime soon if ever, but would rather be a slow progression that comes out of nowhere and then they eventually realize it.
Ditto with the in-law stuff which drives me even battier – Milah couldn’t marry Hook because she was married to Rumple (though they obviously behaved as such) and Emma was never married to Neal, so none of this in-law stuff ever validates an argument.
Now backing up to what Phee said because it was on a different page & I just remembered to check (I’m usually so much better at these things grr – I blame the forum being down. Nice forum. Behave!):
One thing I would definitely like to address is that yes, over time my opinions on things have changed slightly. Obviously I’m far more Pro-CS in the CS thread because it’s the only safe place around here to be that, including forums & live-chats. It’s aggravating but it’s also the truth 99% of the time. There are days where I feel like it doesn’t make any sense at all for SF, and then I read or see something that changes things slightly to where I’m more torn (like this thread has helped remind me of being more torn earlier on in the season for sure) and then there are days when the “evidence” is more compelling for me to believe in my ship and not doubt so much. Obviously when I’m just slightly more torn but still in love with my ship I don’t go back to the CS thread and say guys guess what, I’m more ok if we have to settle (though I do mention it occasionally, especially if I’m on a worry rant instead of an I had a great thought today ramble).
So things do change overtime and I hope that’s true of everyone. Just like there are days when I put more significance on a line or a look or a screenshot and then somebody mentions something that counteracts that. I’m all about having legitimate reasons to believe, and if there was something to erase every single thing on my list other than it just being what I want then I would find a way to accept that. There’s no point in shipping if there’s 0 chance of it happening.
I know my comments in the CS thread are not often kind to Neal because I do have issues with him that others don’t. I remember the comments I think you’re mentioning Phee, though goodness knows how far back they are as that thread is massive, but I definitely remember having days where it just didn’t compute to me at all based on what we know of Emma and what things they’ve bothered to show us and chew up time showing us when we know they cut lots out of each episode. I still love my ship and believe in it, but I also have days where I’m more open to SF than others, usually after something has been presented in a nice and logical way. There are definitely days, especially on first reactions to things, where I didn’t see it at all (and I started off very torn even though I became a CSer instantly – both stories are compelling to me personally, I just like one over the other) and over time things stacked up for CS in a way that they just hadn’t for SF.
That’s why this thread has been so great (long, but great) in that it’s presenting SF to me in a nice & positive light without attacking me for loving Hook. Every thing I have seen (and hopefully everything I have said in response) has come across as being “yes but consider this” and “I see what you’re saying though I interpreted that scene entirely differently.” These are all things I can definitely get behind because at the end of the day, those things aren’t going to change, but they might plant a seed of “well hmm, I hadn’t noticed this or that or the other and maybe that is a setup for it if it happens” – at least if that seed is there, potentially down the line if the opposite of what any given person wants to have happen happens, they may remember that and say “oh, so that didn’t come completely out of left field. I didn’t see it originally but I know a lot did, good for them.” I’d really like to think that as heartbroken as any of us would be if we don’t get our first choice for ships, that we’ll be kind to one another and hope that whoever is left has a ship they are equally as passionate down the line for.
I know with Lost I preferred one over the other, was sad when it turned out differently because it made no sense to me why bother with it going as far as it did and then just switch it up, and am still to this day learning to love the 2nd pairing for my favorite guy, but I fully accept that there were clues along the way early on that set up the triangle but ultimately ended up with the pairings that were there. It wasn’t out of left field (though I hope that on OUAT it’s handled a little bit better) and I learned to find the sweet moments in the 2nd pairing so I could try to be happy for my favorite guy. It certainly didn’t stop me from loving the show and while I don’t want to get my heart broken again, Hook’s my guy and I have hope he’ll have a great love story regardless of who it’s with, and I want the same for Neal even though he’s not my first choice. It’s a show about True Love! We all want them to be with their TL, right? There’s really no need to argue because as awesome as a relationship may be, if they’re ultimately supposed to be with someone else and are better suited for that person, then maybe that’s where they’re meant to be. I’m sure Rumple was gutted with Milah and then Cora, but I’m pretty sure he’d also say ultimately he needs to be with Belle. I sincerely hope that’s the case for the 3 people in the triangle as well, even though it will be excruciating to watch that aspect unfold to begin with as somebody will be hurt. *sniffle*
Phee I love what you said about wanting to reach in the screen and hug Hook! Especially coming from a huge SF fan it makes me happy to see that more are embracing (or rather, wanting to embrace, sometimes literally!) Hook as a character. I hope everyone saw the real emotion in the finale and are at least a little more open to him as a character, even if they don’t want him with Emma (seriously the hatred around here constantly trying to get rid of Hook and/or Belle is ridiculous!). My heart was absolutely shattered when he got emotional. I loved his scenes with young Bae (Dylan is amazing!) and they looked so great together and then his heart was broken all over again. He’s not as bad of a guy as people want to believe! Also until we see things on the actual show, we can’t read into what we think he’ll be based on knowledge of other versions of the story. After all, they’ve turned many of the stories their heads and right now Hook seems to be more of an Anti-Hero than a villain and on the flip side, Peter Pan sure doesn’t sound like the typical PP hero version I’m familiar with. We cannot make assumptions because they could do literally anything.
And I do not believe the promo department for a second…”see how this charming swashbuckler became the greatest villain of all time” um…yeah right uh…no. Even if he were just a straight-up villain with no goodness at all – unlikely on this show – then Flook kinda invalidates villain status, at least on the level that they were suggesting. His whole arc so far up until his recent dropping of revenge has literally been “you tore the heart of the woman I loved out and crushed it front of me. She died in my arms and I want to kill you because of this after spending centuries trying to figure out to do so.” If anybody is capable of deep love, it’s Hook – not saying his methods are good and I was just as upset with him as anyone else, but that he is capable of loving deeply and his whole journey has been about love just as much as what Rumple went through to get Bae back (doing far worse things along the way) etc etc. I get why *some* RumBelle people hate him and it’s because he’s been against their guy and I completely get that (I was gutted when I liked him so much to realize he was pitting himself against Rumple and that would mean he wouldn’t make it for long – so glad he’s giving that up!), but I personally don’t understand defending Rumple and not making some allowances for Hook in the grand scheme of things. (Personally I love both characters and want to see them working together albeit strained, rather than trying to kill each other).
Likewise as much as we CSers love to hang onto the fact that the promo department used footage of CS in its Timeless Love promo and not SF, they just can’t be taken seriously because of all their past screwups. I was happy to see that they used #HookTheHero around finale time but they could not have been more wrong earlier on – if anyone is delusional with regards to the show, it’s the people running the promo department. Hopefully we can all agree about that at least!
The last few times SF has been broached to me personally, it hasn’t been in the best of light and has usually just made me more defensive of my ship and focus on the points that I’ve had to use to explain why I like it (especially when anybody who asks then turns around and says that Colin is hot and that’s what you really meant to say *eye roll* – so glad to know that some SFers think he’s hot too – cause let’s face it, he is – but that’s not a reason to ship someone. I am more than happy to enjoy his hotness without having it affect my ship and I’m kinda sick of seeing people say “well whoever ___ ends up with better be hot!” Sometimes people surprise you and the more you get to know them, the better looking they become!)
So I am sure I am just as guilty of “bashing” Neal at times as others are of bashing Hook in a shipper thread especially, but I genuinely do want Neal to find happiness and have discovered recently that a) all of my issues regarding him are connected to Emma and it has nothing to do with him as a person and b) he’s not all that bad when you take everything into account. When I was first torn, I ended up having to be so defensive of Hook because it felt like nobody else was. I do think there are many valid points that have been brought up about Neal and all it does is give me hope that I go back to being torn so that I can be happy regardless of her choice and more importantly UNDERSTAND her choice. One of my biggest gripes is that I like Emma as a character so much for who she is today and nothing I have seen *so far* suggests to me that she would be staying true to her character if she goes back to Neal *right now* – I think we can all agree everyone has a long way to go before any of these couples will be happy and it is definitely a slow journey. I worry about Emma being true to the Emma we know and again, *so far* that makes me lean heavily in Hook’s favor. It absolutely leaves the door open for the show to try to change my mind and as I’ve had in my sig for awhile now, I’m open to anything we haven’t SEEN yet and only judge it based on that, so there’s plenty of time for Neal to come out swinging and show me why he’s the right one for Emma in the longrun. So far the only time I remember rooting for him (initial run-through, I haven’t rewatched a lot of this season yet so have just been keeping up with various podcasts / forums), was when he returned to the apartment to protect Emma from Rumple. I was THRILLED in that moment because it gave me hope and that’s what it’s all about.
I’ve been begging the show for ages to give me a reason to believe that should she choose that route, and have it not be going against character and what she’s been saying all along and that it won’t feel out of obligation and will be her actual choice. I don’t think they’ll go the obligation route since Adam agreed that being together for Henry isn’t a reason, and I don’t think it would be *entirely* out of character for her to want to make it work with her first love, especially knowing that he didn’t want to let her go. I just worry based on some of how she’s been presented before that she will be contradicting herself *from what we know right now* if she doesn’t at least struggle with it a bit (and I think she will regardless) because she has had a tough stance on things like “wanting someone vs actually making a choice to be with them.” She’s accepted that Snowing gave her up for a good reason and she’s brought people she doesn’t like all that much into the fold like Regina so I completely see her having *some kind* of a good relationship with Neal in the future. I think he may have to work hard to win her over (and in the process, Neal-doubters like myself), but then that would be the show answering the need for showing why it makes sense so I’d be ok with that.
I’m hesitant to rule out anything at this point but I hold on for dear life because I do believe they’ve set things up a certain way but we really won’t know til we see it play out. It’s going to be a longggg season for everyone (though never long enough) since it’s guaranteed that Hook & Emma will be spending time together and Eddy just loves to remind everybody that Emma thinks Neal is dead – which also isn’t a reason to form a relationship. I want whatever relationship she ends up in to be realistic and worthy of such an awesome character and I have hope that regardless of WHO she chooses that it will be right for her. I just don’t want it to be “because ____ is true” when it’s from the opposite pairing. As much as I mention Neal as to why I think she’s better with Hook (because the past does affect who she is today), I don’t want anybody’s ultimate choice to be because they thought someone was dead. Basically I don’t want anyone to settle for their 2nd choice.
They put in Daniel telling Regina to find love again so that they could have characters who have lost loves find love again. It doesn’t undermine the previous love but it doesn’t close the characters off forever anyway. Also nobody to this point that has lost a love has necessarily been a *TL* – they were “truly loved” for sure or people like Rumple, Regina or Hook wouldn’t react the way they did to losing them. I just don’t think that their spiraling and being the opposite type of person from what the person who loved them is what they would have wanted, nor does it make it *TL* per se. You would think it would inspire them to honor the person more than spiraling out of control in such a dark fashion (ie: Rumple said he wanted to honor Bae by doing the right thing in saving his son, even if the boy is his undoing whereas Rumple, Regina, and Hook going after revenge in the way that they did with their first loves that we saw were all very dark and out of control). I include Rumple because I think he did truly love his family (Rumple & baby Bae feels *sniff*) but I don’t think anyone would argue Rumple & Milah were TL at all. Rumple tried to mock Hook & Milah by calling what they had twu wuv but there was no confirmation other than that they were willing to sacrifice themselves for each other and we know that Rumple does respect TL, or at least in particular Snowing – I swear he wishes he were Charming sometimes just to have that much faith and belief and trust – didn’t RC basically say he plays it like Rumple wants to be Charming?) And we know that Regina was devastated when Daniel was taken from her and it’s held her back, but he also told her to love again and while I like the idea of only having one “true” love, that would also be very depressing if that person were taken away from you.
I know I mentioned the quote about sometimes there are just people you choose for reasons that may not make sense to others but it’s just how you feel and she may very well go back to Neal because she just feels that and wants to make it work and that’s enough for her. I have faith the writers will not make it feel like “this option is bad for her but she wants it anyway so tough” but rather, they have laid the ground work for it regardless and it could definitely go either way right now for me. (I still love CS and will support and root for them for as long as I have reasons to and right now, I still feel that way but feel better about the outcome of the triangle than I did before, even if I don’t get my way…again – in which case I may watch and love future shows with the same writers but might have to just give up on shipping cause I’m right with most shows but ugh it’s so heartbreaking to be wrong! It’s why I’m so afraid to commit too much to anything right this minute having taken a step back from the episodes for a bit. I may feel differently once I do my rewatch and end up back in my CS bubble of feels, but I’m at least more open to really looking into the Neal option as well which is something I planned on trying to analyze anyway to see what was really there. Netflix needs to the get the episodes so I can screenshot and have fun with it rather than FFing on the dvr >.<). I do agree with the RumBelle thing as I had completely forgotten he couldn’t feel that she was alive. He didn’t believe himself worthy and was vulnerable to Regina’s comments for sure. I don’t think that Emma has the same doubts, especially since I think she became vindicated in her feelings but she also doesn’t expect anything good to happen to her either so I could see that impairing that feeling, whereas Charming always has faith. She was certainly looking at it as “he is injured and there’s no hospital on the other side” so to her it’s just a matter of time and she believes he’s gone. (She also NEVER thinks of her magic unless somebody points it out to her or it’s last second panic – I’m surprised she never thought to try to do anything in that moment, especially with how emotional she was getting. Yes she was distracted emotionally and it takes her awhile to jump to that conclusion, but she usually manages to if it’s truly the last second and instead she let him go. Not sure what her magic really entails just yet, I think we’ll get more of that in S3, so not sure if she could have done much of anything / what would have happened if nobody went through the portal. IE: would it have kept getting bigger until it sucked somebody in?) I would like to argue the point about what Neal may or may not have known/been expecting. The impression I’ve gotten from the 2 times we’ve seen Neal & August interact is that when the curse is broken, August will let Neal know (which he did, including after a reminder immediately before heading to SB) but nowhere did I get the impression that August was going to tell Emma everything and that SHE would go after HIM. Now, I get why that’s a fun headcanon and I’m not ruling it out. I’m just saying that I personally never got the impression that just because the curse was broken that she would know absolutely everything. I don’t recall August promising him that.
I see why Neal may think that, in which case he should have waited a tiny bit longer after the curse broke before starting something with someone else if he was waiting to see (August went to see him right before he went to SB and Tamara “bumped into” him immediately after, so…if he was waiting/hoping to see what her reaction was, he failed miserably at doing that since he started something with Tamara before August even got to SB in the first place, much less may or may not have said anything to Neal. In that case I kinda *really* hope he wasn’t planning on doing that because what if Emma had found out the truth from August and went to find him, only to find him with Tamara? It was bad enough she spent 2 years in Tallahassee and they’re both hurting over all of it right now but that would have been BRUTAL. I really think all August told him was that he’d let him know when he could go and find Emma. (I can’t remember if he JUST said the postcard or if he said you can go find her after it’s over, does anybody have the quotes from those 2 interactions?)
Neal’s reaction to everything in Manhattan was confusing to me, though I agree that he had a lot going on in his head (similar to what JMO was talking about at PaleyFest with a million emotions having to play out on her face in 3 seconds because of all the new information she was getting). It was a great episode but I haven’t seen it in awhile so someone can maybe clear that up a bit. I know he was happy to see her when he realized who it was, I can’t remember if he ever knew/suspected why someone was chasing him. He seemed determined to get away, was happy when he saw it was her but I still didn’t get the impression he thought she was supposed to be looking for him. Otherwise he would have answered the door like a normal person I would think. His attitude completely shifted when he saw it was her and was genuinely shocked to hear his dad was in NY as well. I suppose he was on the run from goodness knows what this time, but I thought / hoped he had gotten his life together, especially since he wanted to quit that lifestyle years ago as well as how nicely he was dressed in the premiere. He very well could have been on the run from someone random but again, he didn’t even answer the buzzer to find out if it might be her before running out the fire escape so I can’t really grasp the idea *right now* that he ever expected her to show up or even had the hopes that she might. August sent a dove so while the dove may have a magical way of finding someone specific, but it’s not like August was like “oh by the way, here’s Neal’s address – I just sent him a postcard.”
So I’m not sure what Neal DID know or expect to happen once the curse was broken. Some have pointed out that it looks like Bae moved after getting the postcard (personally I think they just changed the apartment a LOT, if they were trying to show he moved because he got scared and ran again they certainly didn’t make it obvious, at least not on initial watch), but I don’t think that he was waiting around for Emma to show up at all post-curse. In fact, I think he was super-surprised to see her (pleased, but surprised – at that point he *may* have been thinking that August told her everything since she was in NY as well as chasing him and that added to his shock and subsequent anger at her bringing Rumple too, but I don’t believe that he was *expecting* her to show up at all post curse – not because he didn’t believe that she would, but because he never had reason to think so because August never said he’d send Emma to find him, he said he’d send a postcard to him when it was safe to go after her).
I also agree that no matter what I want all 3 to get along someday. There’s so much potential in all the possible friendships & romantic relationships alike in that triangle and ultimately they all need to be there for Henry.
I will also agree that *at this moment* Neal would have a harder time being just friends with Emma (and yes it would be brutal for him if he fights hard to get back specifically to her and finds her with the pirate who he blames for his family turning out the way it did on top of that). I was encouraged by the MRJ interview not long ago where he said Neal’s focus is finding family. I’d like to think that since he told Emma to let him go for Henry’s sake that his focus is getting back to Henry first and foremost. I’m sure in the back of his mind he’ll be trying to get back to Emma too…I just want his focus to be on Henry and anything else is a bonus. He seems intent on making up for the mistakes their parents made and that will endear him to Emma and the audience as well. I just don’t want them to show this epic quest to get back to Emma only to have her say it was closure for her and have him be stomped on again, nor do I think that even if that’s what happens she has any obligation to go back. As I said previously I don’t read the ILYs as being “well we’re together now so if you do happen to make it out alive even though we pretty much just agreed that you’ll probably die, come and find me and I’ll be single.” So I’d rather they show him as a father fighting to get back to his son first and foremost.
I think he’ll be upset with them for being even friends which is what I expect them to be by the time they are reunited with Neal. I honestly DON’T want a full-fledged CS by the time Neal gets back unless Emma is prepared to say this is my choice and I’m sorry because then that reeks of “well you were dead and I’ve moved on” and implies that she was only with Hook because Neal was “dead” and frankly that’s not fair to anyone.
I agree that Hook may feel like he needs to step back out of respect for all of them. Emma needs to come to grips with her feelings for everyone and he’s had more time to adjust to Milah being gone and not an option and is finally moving forward from that. He knows what it feels like though and Emma is getting another chance after thinking Neal was dead so I expect him to give it to her. It’ll be interesting to see how she reacts to that, especially since most people in her life have manipulated her and she’ll finally get to choose, but for everyone’s happiness and sanity, they all need to sort out their issues before a choice can come into play.
I don’t see Emma as being wishy-washy and I certainly don’t want her to string them along. If anything I think she’ll push it to the backburner while doing other stuff and then something may happen that forces her to admit who she actually is in love with right now.
I think part of the thought process Hook was working through specifically in the diner scene is the fact that the guy who broke Emma to the point where she didn’t trust him (knowing that she wanted to since she said it herself) is the same kid he once tried to be family to. He’s definitely attracted to Emma and as you said, admires her feisty attitude and has always been impressed with her / complimenting her. The ultimate compliment he could give her was that she would make a good pirate. So I do think he will struggle knowing that the guy in her past is one he has a connection to as well. He may even blame himself for not fighting harder to get Bae to change his mind back then or he never would have been there to hurt Emma (as he doesn’t know all the details surrounding that).
I agree that he’ll question how deep his feelings go but based on what we’ve seen, he’s a pretty tough nut to crack and was deeply in love with Milah to the point that he’s spent centuries focused on revenge which he is just now walking away from and Emma is a huge part of that, just like her influence is helping him see the bigger picture. They’re both helping each other trust again and open up – I think he’s been “Hook” for far too long and in Emma’s presence is the first we’ve seen of “Killian Jones” and I hope that continues.
So we’ll have to see how long they are away from Neal (and NL time is different so they might be gone a few days his time and goodness knows how long in theirs – something he should understand even if he doesn’t like it), and how close of a bond they form in that time. Again I don’t think it’ll be romantic off the bat and I think Hook will let Emma figure things out but he could easily fall for her without pursuing it because he’s giving her time and still be gutted / have a hard time being around them with Henry when they’re all reunited. Just because he won’t act on it early on since he knows she’s in pain doesn’t mean he won’t potentially feel something and just be waiting for her to seem ready, only to have to deal with all of these emotions all over again when Neal shows up. He may convince himself it’s OK for now because Neal is “dead” and there’s nothing he can do about it and Emma deserves to be happy and so does he, but goodness only knows what will happen when Neal gets back.
I absolutely love Hook’s quote and I am a little torn on what to think about it because I do think he will be FAR more sympathetic to SF than Neal will ever be to CS (even as a friendship). Hook will want Bae to be happy and I don’t think he’ll want to inflict more pain on him but I also don’t see him being a doormat, especially if Neal tries to control Emma in any way. By control I mostly mean get mad at Emma for wanting Hook in her life or standing up for him for saving Henry. (I fully expect that confrontation and I see Hook really trying as he genuinely did want to give up his revenge for Bae and Neal just having none of it for the time being). I think Hook will back up and let Emma decide, but Neal may force his hand into feeling the need to get defensive too. I’d like him to fight as far as showing that he wants it too, but to also fight for it to be Emma’s choice, and be understanding of the entire situation. One of the things I love about David from when he was initially in the triangle was offering MM a choice and just saying “If you choose this, if you choose us, you know where I’ll be” – he wasn’t pressuring her into it, he was making it about her and her choice and then taking a step back. (Yes I realize everything went downhill after that, but this was when he was close to being Charming as possible before the David memories over and I loved that moment because it was hopeful but not pushy and I would like something similar of Hook, even if Emma chooses differently.)
I think that’s the only way to combine Hook’s mixed emotions regarding both Emma & Bae, as well as whatever his own are by that point. I think he’d step back for sure if he’s not completely in love with her, but he may be by that point and just waiting for her to be ready. Likewise they could all be the best of friends and as you said Phee, maybe he’d meet someone like Ariel. We just don’t know yet and right now we’re only guessing based on our own interpretations of what has to happen.
As for briefly touching on the other potential relationships, I’ve posted in the Hookriel thread before & go back and forth on it because they’d have to connect Eric / have her be aged up / see how they do once they interact but I do have it as a backup for now. I think we have similar issues regarding anybody being paired with Regina *at this moment* because she does have a long way to go. As much as Hook is introspective right now and Regina is trying to be better, we’ve been through this a few times with Regina so I’m hesitant to say they’d do anything but help each other spiral. It’s one of the reasons I like the idea of her with Neal because he is such a good guy who has been equally if not moreso been beaten down (and by some of the same people) but chooses not to go after revenge. He’s always reminded me of Daniel and she definitely needs more of that type. Other than *potentially* Neal, I haven’t seen anybody I would deem as a potential love interest for Regina and likewise, other than Emma I haven’t seen anything to base a relationship with Hook on with anyone either, though the same goes for Neal other than *potentially* Regina. We are getting new characters once in awhile and they all have a long way to go as people first anyway so things may change. I’m inclined to think that in some way, Neal, Regina, and Hook will all wind up being a part of the twisted family in more ways than just being connected to Henry and that the pairings between the 4 of them will happen. Can I get on board with HQ right now? Not remotely. Could it happen someday? Maybe. Will I like it more when people aren’t cramming it down my throat as simply a way to get Hook out of the way so SF can happen? ABSOLUTELY.
I definitely do not want them to have to find a place for Hook to fit in and have it feel smushed. Emma offered him a chance to be a part of something which sounds like a general invite and I know the writers/producers love him, but I fear that if they don’t set him up with someone and have it be integral somehow (could be Emma, Ariel may be important – I hope she’s not a 1-shot deal, somebody else could step forward, who knows), that he will be backburnered and while that would make some people happy, I would hate to see it happen. It’s one of the extra perks (not why I think it will or has to happen but would make me happy because of it) reasons why I lean toward CS because Neal is guaranteed a spot either way. He has other connections as does Regina that are super important and no matter what, will always have to be a part of Emma’s & Henry’s lives. I’d like to think that should the SF family reunite that Hook will still be around and a part of things, but with so much bad blood and no real reason to be there I do fear for the character sometimes. (Again, I don’t really buy into the idea *currently* that Bae ever really got much of a chance to be a son to Hook and at this stage of the game, he has his father back so therefore doesn’t really need Hook in that capacity now either).
I’ll agree that it would help Hook grow as a person if he is helping out to honor Bae, but again he went to help out originally (before Charming double-crossed him – thus proving to Hook everything he already believed) too which had nothing to do with him. It does show that he was willing to try though which is a good step for everyone regardless. I have hope for 99% of the characters to either have a moment of redemption before they die or to do a 180 and find happiness and I consider Hook to be included in that latter category at this point, especially since they’ve made him a regular and added him to the dvd cover (heck, Henry isn’t even on those). I expect MRJ to be added to it next year since he was technically only recurring this year – Bae is very important whether he ends up with someone I want him to or not).
RG I completely agree – can’t stand the constant bashing of a character and wanting them dead or gone, much less mocking people who like them or parading it in their faces that they were wrong and won’t get what they want. I think part of the reason I tuned out of SF discussions for the most part was because I got so sick of the celebrating in mean ways. Absolutely be happy when you get a moment like in SSTTR, but laughing at CSers and saying “haha CS is dead” is just mean. I certainly wasn’t celebrating the idea of Neal being dead. We’re all Oncers and as we’ve proven here, we can get along and agree to disagree! We can try our best to explain what we see and where we’re coming from, but at the end of the day everyone will interpret things differently and we’ll have to wait and see what the show decides to actually you know, show us! (I’d really like to think that by the end of all things, it will become very obvious why Emma makes whatever choice she makes and that a cheesy montage isn’t needed to show that it was set up there from the beginning. Likewise I think that BOTH potential ships have lots of setup involved along the way and someday on a rewatch these things will become far more obvious for whoever doubts the ship that winds up happening).
I fully admit there are many things that CS holds onto that may or may not mean anything, and I’m sure the same is true of SF since we all see things differently. Will I go through and find all the little things I personally think set up my ship since I don’t think it’s just one or two little things? Absolutely. Will absolutely ALL of them be intentional and meant to make me believe in it? Probably not. I am proven wrong plenty of times and happy to nix various arguments along the way when that argument proves to be invalid. We just don’t know for sure yet and the little things add up over time. I’m sure the same is absolutely true of every ship out there. I may not have bothered to ship Emma with anyone in S1 (except mildly Graham but certainly not hardcore) but I saw why others liked the *potential* story arcs for each and as I’m sure I said somewhere, last season before we knew anything *for sure* about Henry’s dad since Emma’s comments were obviously coming from a place of being hurt and we didn’t know the reasons, I actually really really liked the *idea* of SF so it’s not impossible for me to learn to love it again if needbe, I just prefer CS right now and have since their introduction. I didn’t get the same gut punch for SF when we finally met Neal, that’s all. To each their own!
Sometimes opinions change when we get more information or are presented with another option we find equally or more compelling on a personal level, but that doesn’t mean it can’t swing back. I haven’t seen anything in S2 that made me give up CS or make me feel compelled to 100% root for SF, but that doesn’t mean it’s not impossible to make us love or at least tolerate whatever happens later on.
I’ve been saying all season that it’s too early to call endgame for Emma because she is the one main character who isn’t Disney-canon – we didn’t grow up knowing who she was meant to be with. We knew going into triangles like Snowing/Abigail & MAP who had to end up with who and they proved those early! We SAW Snowing’s TLK in the pilot, we SAW Philora’s TLK in their first intro at the start of S2. We didn’t see anything that proved it with Emma because her relationship with Neal started out in a world without magic and if it’s not Neal but Hook, then it hasn’t progressed to that level yet. We just don’t know!
I will say this regarding Lost – some of the people I hated (and I mean HATED) at the start grew to be people I got very emotional over by the end. One couple that was together at the start I was sure were awful for one another and thought they were leading toward her leaving to be with someone else a little bit of the way through – and then the married couple were great together & the guys ended up being best friends! Was a total curveball for me because I thought they were predictably going down a certain path so you never can tell. That couple I hated became one of my favorite storylines but it took time. (Whereas I still didn’t get my main ship and had to learn to like the other ship for the guy I really wanted to have be happy – I’m still learning to tolerate it but I find things about it that I like and hold onto and for the rest, there’s always the memories).
I put a lot of emphasis on camera shots where others say it’s just who was standing there at the time or what made for a good lasting image to do whatever with. We all put our personal filters into everything and as long as we’re honest about that, we’re able to have discussions like these. For myself, the season was book-ended by seeing Neal (the one who didn’t come back) and Hook (the one who did). Likewise, looking at the language Neal’s is about the past, and Hook’s is looking to the future. I also look at some of the wording along the way that they chose to use with Hook with things like “We want the same things” and “Everything we need is right in front of us” (as he walks right in front of her) but those also work WITHIN THE SCENE and context is important.
Do I love the idea that Emma sat by Hook’s bedside til he woke up? Of course. She was protecting him from Rumple but she’s likely to want to protect everyone anyways (though she didn’t sit by Greg’s bedside, just saying). Did she say “I’d pick you”? Yes (and while I would love to cheer about that just as the two lines previously mentioned, context is everything and this context wasn’t so good *shakes head*. Do I count them as *possible* things worded in such a way that someday we’ll look back and see the language was there indicating it all along? Of course I do, because if I didn’t believe it and see things that way, there would be no point in shipping my heart out and ruining my enjoyment of the show when people insist on destroying a ship I love. Can I say it’s not purely coincidence because things they needed were literally in front of them or the fact that they did want the same things right that moment because they wanted to get to SB? Sadly I can’t. Nobody but H&K can definitively say it meant anything or meant nothing.
I love the wording, as a writer myself (doubt anybody ever would have guessed THAT *shakes fist at the character limit problem & hides*) I am all about the wording (though I should really reread & edit my posts more than I do) and reading between the lines – one of the reasons I love Rumple & his technicalities in contracts – but at the end of the day, we also know that some of the lines have been SERIOUSLY screwed up because they seem to contradict things we know or mess with the t-word etc. It is all about the context.)
And now onto part 2…(now I see the trouble KFChimera was having using all the quotes!)
Keeper of Hook's Trenchcoat.