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This is something I was discussing last night in chat but wanted to post to get more feedback.
Of all the flashbacks in 311, the one of Rumple and Belle bothered me because it felt like a retcon of Skin Deep. Skin Deep shows THAT was the first time Rumple and Belle really talked about his son or that he had lost him. And that was at a time that Rumple was getting to know Belle. There is a marked difference in his character during Skin Deep and (to a lesser extent Lacey) than there was in Going Home.
So this is what I’m proposing: that “Belle” that walked in with the basket of flowers….isn’t really Belle.
It’s a vision of Belle. Here is why I think this:
–Look at Rumple himself. He is full on Dark One. His skin is so green gold that it’s almost black. His voice is the deep low voice of the DO. His clothing is pitch black. He looks like the Rumple that Regina came to see AFTER she trapped Belle in her tower.
Now look at the room. It’s incredibly dreary and dark, as if no one actually goes in there except Rumple, to be alone. Which contradicts Lacey when he gave her the library (while she was wearing her gold gown).
Then Belle enters. What’s weird here is that she’s carrying a basket of flowers. Belle wasn’t allowed to leave the castle until Skin Deep. So..the flowers came from….? And of course I think they’re roses which serve as a callback to when Rumple gave Belle “Gaston.”
They never touch and Rumple is incredibly gruff with Belle. It’s as if they tried to say that this was the first day or so in the castle for Belle, but based on her outfit and HER demeanor toward Rumple (seeing beyond the monster) that seems unlikely.
We know that after Belle “died” Rumple descended further into madness, having lost one more person to his power. We also know that a big portion of this season in present day had Rumple hallucinating Belle (302 and 304) as his inner light. Well, I propose that this happened before. After Rumple lost Belle in Skin Deep he began to have visions of her. She would appear and speak to him, try to be his moral compass because that is what she is to him.
Therefore this flashback takes places AFTER Skin Deep and that’s not really Belle.
Thoughts?
[adrotate group="5"]"He was a lot of things to me" "The only conclusion was love"Possible but unless this sets up Belle having similar vision talks with “dead” Rumple, not sure it makes the scene feel that much less of a rehash/pointless one that would have been better spent on some new thing between Rumple asking Belle–or even a time Rumple spoke about his father to set up that Rumple loved his father but his father had told him before that he never loved him, yet would say let’s start over. Then Belle would say if you really love someone you don’t need a fresh start–you just need forgiveness, andt to learn from the past. Just more poetic and Belle like–setting up why she takes him back and does not judge him for his past dark acts. She does not need a fresh start with him to love him because she loves him despite his flaws or something like that.
“If I had a world of my own, everything would be nonsense. Nothing would be what it is, because everything would be what it isn't. And contrary wise, what is, it wouldn't be. And what it wouldn't be, it would. You see?” -- Lewis Carroll, Alice's Adventures in Wonderland & Through the Looking-Glass
Possible but unless this sets up Belle having similar vision talks with “dead” Rumple, not sure it makes the scene feel that much less of a rehash/pointless one that would have been better spent on some new thing between Rumple asking Belle–or even a time Rumple spoke about his father to set up that Rumple loved his father but his father had told him before that he never loved him, yet would say let’s start over. Then Belle would say if you really love someone you don’t need a fresh start–you just need forgiveness, andt to learn from the past. Just more poetic and Belle like–setting up why she takes him back and does not judge him for his past dark acts. She does not need a fresh start with him to love him because she loves him despite his flaws or something like that.
No the scene still feels a little pointless and could have been used differently, I agree.
But I think at a time when Rumple is mourning Baelfire, it makes sense that Belle (his happily ever after) shows up to console him, even though he doesn’t want it. Because right then he is reminded of another person he let go for his power, someone he lost.
But my explanation at least deals with the retconn-y-ness.
"He was a lot of things to me" "The only conclusion was love"Rumple looks like he is wearing the outfit he wore the time he retrieved Belle. I think that is real Belle. I think this happens after Lacey because Belle is friendly towards Rumple whilst he seems to be trying to keep her at arm’s length.
It’s possible Belle got the flowers from the dark castle garden, Belle may not have been allowed to leave the grounds but I don’t think Rumple would’ve confined her to the castle forever.
I think we can say this scene is a continuity error (like the curtains in Lacey)It happens before Rumple sends Belle to town but it means that Belle knew about Bae before Rumple gives her Gaston.
All magic comes with a price!
Keeper of FelixI think this happens after Lacey because Belle is friendly towards Rumple whilst he seems to be trying to keep her at arm’s length.
But that feels like a contradiction to Lacey. I mean, they hug and he gives her a library automatically. He’s not one to keep people he cares for at arms length. He goes out of his way to try and win their affection. Bae’s upset that he can’t go outdoors? Here. Have a crown I stole. Cora admits she wants to hear people’s knees crack? Here. Have some smouldering shoulder kisses. Belle’s proud of him for not killing RH and then hugs him? Here. Have a library.
Once you’ve secured Rumple’s affection he is Pepe La Peu. “I WILL GIVE YOU EVERYTHING YOU ASK FOR BECAUSE YOU LIKE ME AND AM I COMING ON TOO STRONG BECAUSE YOU LIKE ME AND I AM GOING TO LIKE YOU BACK!”
(I love that man)
"He was a lot of things to me" "The only conclusion was love"It’s possible Belle got the flowers from the dark castle garden, Belle may not have been allowed to leave the grounds but I don’t think Rumple would’ve confined her to the castle forever.
Agreed. I don’t think the flowers mess up the t-word.
They need to pay more attention to their CGI for the interior of Rumple’s castle, because first the glitch with the curtains, and now what appears to be the library, with all the books, but the rest of the room is wrong because his table of magic-y junk and his wheel shouldn’t be there, and her little lounge should be. So maybe it isn’t actually the library he gave her, just another room that looks similar? Why would he do Bae’s birthday memorial in a room he expected her to go into?
I know we’ve had VisionBelle already this season, but it would seem odd to me to have this be VisionBelle as well, without actually revealing it. If she were a VisionBelle, I’d expect her to have faded away when he got upset and wanted to be alone and he shut her out of his mind.
Why would he do Bae’s birthday memorial in a room he expected her to go into?
Well my answer is that she isn’t there. He’s simultaneously mourning two people.
I know we’ve had VisionBelle already this season, but it would seem odd to me to have this be VisionBelle as well, without actually revealing it. If she were a VisionBelle, I’d expect her to have faded away when he got upset and wanted to be alone and he shut her out of his mind.
Yeah that’s true.
But between her dress and their attitudes toward each other, it just felt off.
"He was a lot of things to me" "The only conclusion was love"But between her dress and their attitudes toward each other, it just felt off.
I’ll have to go back and re-watch the Skin Deep and Lacey stuff to be able to judge better, but just re-watching the Going Home scene, I think it would fit if this was after their conversation in Skin Deep, (but before the end of Skin Deep).
In Skin Deep he said, “There was a son. I lost him –” and in Going Home he said, “He’s not dead, he’s just lost,” as in, “Don’t you remember what I said the last time we spoke about this? I never said he was dead, I said I lost him.”
In Skin Deep we learned that Belle had seen the child’s clothing, and in Going Home she had a moment of recognition when she saw the clothing on the table.
I think that considering they had had that previous conversation about him having had a son, that’s why Belle felt OK to ask some more about him in this scene. But because it was an especially sad moment for Rumple, he just wasn’t interested in speaking to her about it right then, and was initially just annoyed at her being there, messing up something he’s done as a ritual, every year for over 100 years.
In Skin Deep he said, “There was a son. I lost him –” and in Going Home he said, “He’s not dead, he’s just lost,” as in, “Don’t you remember what I said the last time we spoke about this? I never said he was dead, I said I lost him.” In Skin Deep we learned that Belle had seen the child’s clothing, and in Going Home she had a moment of recognition when she saw the clothing on the table.
Except that Rumple sends Belle away right after that part of the conversation
Belle: So, I’ve had, uh, a couple of months to look around, you know. And, uh… Upstairs there’s, uh, clothing – small, as if for a… A child? Was it yours, or… Or was there a son?
Rumpelstiltskin: There was. There was a son. I lost him – as I did his mother.
Same scene, a few mins later
Rumpelstiltskin: I’ll tell you what – I’ll make you a deal. Go to town and fetch me some straw. When you return, I’ll share my tale.
Belle: But… Town? You… You trust me to come back?
Rumpelstiltskin: Oh, no. I expect I’ll never see you again.
And his attitude in Going Home is totally contradictory to Skin Deep where he tells Belle about Bae.
"He was a lot of things to me" "The only conclusion was love"I don’t think it is a retcon–she realizes it’s a remembrance, but he’s using the scarf/blanket–nothing that’s obviously a son’s. This could easily have happened sometime before the scene in Skin Deep where she asks about the son. She’s probably connected the two at that point, but Rumple doesn’t tell her much in Going Home.
And his behavior is consistent with his character, I think, even in the development of their relationship. I think on the timeline it’ll wind up between the curtains scene (sorry, but I disagree that it’s an editing error…yes, yes, I KNOW–no, we don’t need to hash it out here) and the end of skin deep. Incidentally, I have Baelfire’s birthday as March 23rd, as per the wanted poster, which puts it about three weeks after where I have the curtains scene on the timeline now (and actually still a month before she’s ejected from the castle). And, though that’s pretty random, the day after Jack and James climb the beanstalk and battle the giants.
Obviously the precise dates of almost everything are pretty much speculation…but I do appreciate it when stuff comes together that suggests I’m not terribly far off on the timeline. For me, this scene fit, though my initial reaction was wait, but but but she didn’t know about Bae yet…but she still doesn’t, not really. It’s just a piece of the puzzle she’s working out. And it parallels beautifully with Rumple’s reaction in 222 when Lacey wanted to use the scarf to clean the spill; Belle obviously knew about it from 211, but she’d encountered it before and knew it was important back in the EF! Yay!
Keeper of Belle's Gold magic, sand dollar, cloaks, purple FTL outfit, spell scroll, library key, copy of Romeo and Juliet, and cry-muffling pillow, Rumple's doll, overcoat, and strength, and The Timeline. My spreadsheet: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B6r8CySCCWd9R0RUNm4xR3RhMEU/view?usp=sharing
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