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November 3, 2014 at 9:21 am #288712RumplesGirlKeymaster
Lat week, we tried our first ever “critical analysis” thread and I thought it did very well. We had some interesting conversations. Remember that if you’re in this thread, that there might be some harsh judgments against the plot, characters, ect.
So I think the one thing I want to start off with right away is plot exposition and dump. There were two super heavy exposition dumps in this episode. The first was the Rock Troll to Anna about the secret sisters, and the second was Belle’s final moment in which she tells everyone about the magical spell, we learn about Helga/Emma lookalike, and we learn the SQ’s endgame. It all happened in about 3 mins flat and left my head spinning.
What do you guys think? How much plot is too much plot? How many layers are too many layers? Do they need to simplify?
[adrotate group="5"]"He was a lot of things to me" "The only conclusion was love"November 3, 2014 at 9:36 am #288717SlurpeezParticipantWhat do you guys think?
Overall, I liked this episode. One of things I didn’t like was the amount of time spent in Arendelle. While it was nice to see Belle go there instead of Anna go to EF, I just grow a bit tired of the amount of a time spent on Elsa, Anna, and Kristof. The CGI rock trolls were a bridge too far. We get it. Frozen is all the rage. But the writers are spending more time on developing their story than they even did on Peter Pan in the past or present. There’s only so much I can take of the overly cutsy Disney sisters before I feel like I’m watching a show for 8-year-old girls. Anna falling off the cliff sort of changed the feel of it. The mystery with the Snow Queen is the only thing that kept that feeling fresh and a bit edgier.
Was there too much information to unpack? Maybe. But as I’ll get to, I think a lack of plot has what made this season feel slow until now. The writers could’ve done a better job of spreading out some of those meatier scenes throughout the first six episodes rather than cramming them all into one.
How much plot is too much plot?
This episode did have quite a bit of plot development, but I actually appreciated that, as opposed to last week when there was hardly any. The more the plot develops, the more the show manages to capture my interest, and the less I feel like the episode drags. This episode flew by, and I was on my edge of the seat with the Emma-Helga doppelgänger prophesy.
ow many layers are too many layers?
Personally, I like layers. If there are no layers to uncover, I quickly lose interest. The mystery and intrigue are what drew me in S1, and I’d felt the show had been sorely lacking layers of substance for quite awhile now. I’d felt that the opening of the season was really slow and lacking a lot of depth of plot, so it’s nice finally to see the writers start to add in more layers for a change.
Do they need to simplify?
No. As I wrote above, I think the writers need to beef up the plot! Where I think they need to improve is the pacing at which they add mystery. The first several episodes of the season really dragged as people sort of fumbled about in the dark. Here we are in episode 6, and it’s only now that we’re getting to the juicy stuff. More could have been done to spread out the wealth over the last 6 episodes, rather than try to cram every big scene into a tight window of 42 minutes.
"That’s how you know you’ve really got a home. When you leave it, there’s this feeling that you can’t shake. You just miss it." Neal Cassidy
November 3, 2014 at 9:48 am #288719RumplesGirlKeymasterYes, I basically agree. The amount of plot isn’t the issue, it’s the “let’s throw it all at the audience at once” tactic. You had prophecy, spells, dopplegangers, revelations about the SQ’s endgame, secrets, more family drama in the form of TWO secret sisters, lies and more lies, reflections in mirrors that talk. If they had spread this out more, it wouldn’t have felt so heavy in the last few moments. 404 was the first episode that really “took time off” with the Frozen story; there was Hook and Rumple and Hook and Emma, but it really stalled in the SQ/Frozen department. It’s like they made up for it spaghetti style–throw it at the wall and see what sticks.
"He was a lot of things to me" "The only conclusion was love"November 3, 2014 at 11:17 am #288733BelleOfTheBallParticipantI found this episode to be overwhelming with information. It was nice to FINALLY get an idea of why DQ is in town and what she is up to, but the writers threw everything at us in minutes. I don’t mind them using elements from the Frozen story to help move along the Once story ( such as grand pabie telling Anna about her aunts ) . There would be no one else who would make to tell Anna about her family’s past. It is a themed season and the theme is Frozen. I honestly think they did a smart thing involving the SnowQueen so that it didn’t become the Anna and Elsa show. We still see both characters a lot, but the show’s focus is on this new character and her mystery.
Going back to the layout of this episode, Belle kind of announcing the point of the mirror was a strange way to deliver the information. I would have liked to see Rumple explain what she saw and why it happened while trying to calm her down, then have a scene cut in where Rumple has just finished telling the rest of the town and they react.
I was left confused as to why Emma looks identical to Elsa’s aunt. We know Emma’s family tree so there is no way that Emma could be blood related to Elsa or her family. I’m sure they will go into why they look so much alike but it felt just thrown at us like a side note.
Also Belle using the dagger against Rumple seemed oOC to me but I appriciated that they covered that and handled it as the episode went on
November 3, 2014 at 11:32 am #288740RumplesGirlKeymasterBelle kind of announcing the point of the mirror was a strange way to deliver the information. I would have liked to see Rumple explain what she saw and why it happened while trying to calm her down, then have a scene cut in where Rumple has just finished telling the rest of the town and they react.
Belle has always been “exposition” girl, but normally it’s all she ever does. The difference, for me, in this episode is that she got to be play a part in the magic and plot and not just “book girl who knows everything.” I did think it was rather silly that she comes bursting in and says (basically) “Rumple told me all these things and I had to come over right away to let you know all and now I’m going to dump all the information on you and add to the already overwhelming amount of information you just uncovered.” I worry for the casual audience who couldn’t keep up!
"He was a lot of things to me" "The only conclusion was love"November 3, 2014 at 1:52 pm #288774RumplesGirlKeymasterLet’s talk about women.
Specifically, let’s talk about the idea that ONCE writes strong women. (note: I’m taking this idea from something Lily Sparks wrote in her review of 406).
A and E constantly talk about how they write strong females; they don’t “do damsel’s in distress.” I’m wondering if that thesis actually holds water in this episode.
Now, I love Belle but I can’t help but see that she was “saved” in many ways by men this episode. While she may have gone off on an adventure on her own, it came to naught and, in the end, her father solved her problems by just telling the truth. The real act of heroism was Belle’s mother and we did not get to see this in action but were told about it through a man. This ended, then, with them seeking out Rumple’s help to save the kingdom (not something I have a huge problem with, since it did keep with canon but it’s worth noting).
In the present day, Belle might have been in control of Rumple–but not really–but she felt she was unable to go after the Snow Queen and help right a wrong without him. Why not take Elsa? Why not take anyone? Why not go alone? Rumple saved her from Evil! Reflection! Belle and this culminated to Rumple offering Belle forgiveness for her “crimes” and telling her that she deserves him, all while Belle is sobbing on the floor about her (somewhat minor) lie and how she doesn’t know if she even deserves to be with Rumple anymore. I am bothered by this a lot because even if Belle has been telling a (somewhat minor) lie, goodness knows that Rumple has done/is doing a lot worse. I get keeping the drama alive for awhile longer, but there are ways to do it that don’t make Belle look slightly foolish and begging for forgiveness over a lie. And yes EdR and Bobby acted the heck out of that scene, but that doesn’t change the rather uncomfortable message behind it of Rumple as a victim and Belle as the aggressor who made an error.
There is also Anna. Again, I know this was supposed to be comedic, but Anna’s “Kristoff makes this look so easy! *giggle giggle*” after she “fell” off a mountain–from about 5 inches. Foreshadowing Anna’s fall later and getting us to see the hat box? Yes, but again, there are other ways to do it without making Anna look slightly idiotic, like she can’t do anything without Kristoff around.
Did Regina and Emma pass the Bechdel test?
They didn’t have a lot of screen time, just the two of them, but what they did were two tongue in cheek jokes about their various men–Robin and Hook. After last weeks attempt to push Regina and Emma into friendzone by virtue of being special in their own right, did ONCE just reduce them back to love interests?
And outside of this episode there is Snow White last week and her somewhat goofball conversation with Will in which she neither sweet Mary Margaret or Tough As Nails Bandit Snow, but some sort of caricature of Disney’s Snow White.
Thoughts?
"He was a lot of things to me" "The only conclusion was love"November 3, 2014 at 2:00 pm #288776WickedRegalParticipantYes, I basically agree. The amount of plot isn’t the issue, it’s the “let’s throw it all at the audience at once” tactic. You had prophecy, spells, dopplegangers, revelations about the SQ’s endgame, secrets, more family drama in the form of TWO secret sisters, lies and more lies, reflections in mirrors that talk. If they had spread this out more, it wouldn’t have felt so heavy in the last few moments. 404 was the first episode that really “took time off” with the Frozen story; there was Hook and Rumple and Hook and Emma, but it really stalled in the SQ/Frozen department. It’s like they made up for it spaghetti style–throw it at the wall and see what sticks.
See….the reason we have this issue is because of this half season crap they wanna give us….instead of just expanding over the course of 22 episodes, they wanna rush and have it all fit in 11. It would be a way of having cake and eating it too if we went back to the 22 episode course….we can still have our Core Cast have their moments, instead of being shoved aside for majority of Frozen! The show is Once Upon A Frozen now. Past episode was overwhelming with Frozen….but let’s just grin and bare it! It’s almost over…and Maleficent’s almost here! 🙂
Robin and Regina…my baby’s grown up so much!!! I’m heartbroken, but proud at the same time! And Sean and Lana’s chemistry was once again, just wow! They play off one another so well!
Elizabeth Mitchell….Brilliant woman as always! Her character Ingrid is a bit creepy, but like Slurp said, Fascinating at the same time! On the list of villains…I think I rank her right under Cora!
Belle and Rumple….(Sigh)….that’s all I have to say about that.
But overall…I’ll give this episode a 7/10.
"If you go as far as you can see...you will then see enough to go even further." - Finn Balor
November 3, 2014 at 2:24 pm #288780GaultheriaParticipantA few weeks ago, I thought I would like the Snow Queen plot, but now I’ve had enough of the Evil Luna Lovegood act. The intelligent dreamy babbler works as a supporting character, but like a laxative: for occasional use only.
Gaultheria's fanvids: http://youtube.com/sagethrasher
November 3, 2014 at 2:58 pm #288784kpercymanParticipantThis the beginning of the season I have felt that the characters have been acting well out of character for the most part. From Rumple/Belle to Charming/Snow they seem to be completely different people than where we left them just several months ago.
Snowing: While I don’t like Snowing for the most part; I find the character of Snow to be a strong and independent person. However, since she gave birth to Noah (yes that is what I call him) the writers feel she should be a dingbat. She doesn’t have the Bandit Snow spunk. In this episode I would have expected her to be in the forefront of the action. Nope, nada, zip….Having a child changes you but not this much.
Belle: I love Belle and Evil Belle probably more. Emilie is always great as a villain (Tess from Roswell anyone?). I love that side of her. However, throwing her in with the Frozen bunch and killing her mom so swiftly just didn’t jive with me. Also, the way she used the dagger on Rumple didn’t seem very Belle-like. Now her leaving without Rumple knowing seems more Belle-like. I guess they had to bring up the dagger but it was poor execution in my book.
Rumple: all his character development and his love of Neal just feels like it was tossed to the side this season. It is like a completely different person is writing for him. I mean Bobby is fantastic actor but the stuff he has been given doesn’t seem to be working right. He is out of sync.
Regina/Robin: I don’t like Robin. I like Regina and then I don’t. In this episode I liked Robin even less than before. Regina handled the situation better, but I just don’t see them together. I don’t buy that they are soul mates. I don’t believe in the pixie dust. Instead of him I would like her to be with someone like Will. She needs someone that will test her and aggravate her at the same time. Like you know normal couples. I don’t see playful banter with them.
I am tired of Frozen. I love the costumes but I want to see character development, raw emotion, and not just Elsa trying to find Anna. Or a villain that just wants a family. Maybe I will get my wish, but I am not banking on it.
I do have to say Hook is growing on me more. He had the funniest line of the night stating that everyone is related to everyone else. He is probably the only one that is not acting out of character this season. He is still a smarmy pirate who loves liquor and is after Emma. Oh and he still hates Rumple.
November 3, 2014 at 3:10 pm #288785SlurpeezParticipantSpecifically, let’s talk about the idea that ONCE writes strong women.
Well, Once used to consistently write strong female characters. The show sometimes still manages to hit a home run like Regina defeating Zelena or Emma saving herself and Marian from the dungeon in the Enchanted Forest. However, there is still something to be desired about current hits and misses. There seems to be less female empowerment now in favor of romance. And while romance in all well and good and has its place, it’s not the be all and end all of a story. At least, I hoped it wouldn’t be.
Now, I love Belle but I can’t help but see that she was “saved” in many ways by men this episode. While she may have gone off on an adventure on her own, it came to naught and, in the end, her father solved her problems by just telling the truth. The real act of heroism was Belle’s mother and we did not get to see this in action but were told about it through a man. This ended, then, with them seeking out Rumple’s help to save the kingdom (not something I have a huge problem with, since it did keep with canon but it’s worth noting).
Both men in Belle’s life, her husband and her father, had the upper hand over Belle in this episode. Belle wants to believe that Rumple gave her control of the dagger, but in her innermost being, she knows he is lying to her. But she doesn’t want to admit that to herself, because Belle choosing to be with Rumple was supposed to be about her choosing her own fate, despite her father’s wishes. Speaking of Moe, locking up your adult daughter to control her isn’t the way. Belle needs to deal with her daddy issues before she’s going to be to deal with her hubby issues.
Snow, Belle and Anna are in a difficult position, because they’re without magic, compared to Elsa, Emma, Regina and the Snow Queen. But still, in the past Belle was written as being strong and independent when she paired up with Mulan to free Prince Philip from Maleficent’s curse. Speaking of Mulan, where is she hiding? Mulan taught Belle many important lessons about heroism and the like, which I guess she’d yet to learn in this flashback to Arendelle. More Mulan, less Anna, please.
There is also Anna. Again, I know this was supposed to be comedic, but Anna’s “Kristoff makes this look so easy! *giggle giggle*” after she “fell” off a mountain–from about 5 inches. Foreshadowing Anna’s fall later and getting us to see the hat box? Yes, but again, there are other ways to do it without making Anna look slightly idiotic, like she can’t do anything without Kristoff around.
Speaking of Arendelle, Anna is starting to get on my nerves. She’s got some spunk to her, like when she when faced off with Rumple, but then she needs a big strong guy to climb up a mountain. I guess she finally managed to make it up there, but her falling off the mountain wasn’t the greatest scene. Wouldn’t the impact have broken her spine? Also, Frozen was supposed to be about sisters helping each other. I’d like to see more Anna/Elsa together, since their story was supposed to be about a unique family kind of TL, as opposed to the romantic kind.
And outside of this episode there is Snow White last week and her somewhat goofball conversation with Will in which she neither sweet Mary Margaret or Tough As Nails Bandit Snow, but some sort of caricature of Disney’s Snow White.
Okay, let’s talk about Snow White. She’s the town mayor now, whether she wants the job or not. There was that time that Bandit Snow managed to one up Prince Charming, that time she was able to allude even the Evil Queen and her forces, or that time Snow got the blade of Excalibur (okay that was a fake, but still). Now what? She’s sort of left without much to do except to fix broken generators through Mama Logic and pardon book thieves.
Did Regina and Emma pass the Bechdel test?
I’d say yes, they managed to do that in 4×5 but fell back into “girl talk” which was actually about romance. Why don’t Emma and Regina talk about you know, their son anymore? Henry–remember him? Why haven’t Emma and Regina talked about Henry moving out of Snow’s apartment back into Regina’s mansion? You’d think them talking about their joint custody of their kid would be a thing.
"That’s how you know you’ve really got a home. When you leave it, there’s this feeling that you can’t shake. You just miss it." Neal Cassidy
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