Home › Forums › Once Upon a Time › Season Four › 4×06 “Family Business” › 406: Critical Analysis
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November 3, 2014 at 3:29 pm #288786GaultheriaParticipant
Speaking of Arendelle, Anna is starting to get on my nerves. She’s got some spunk to her, like when she when faced off with Rumple, but then she needs a big strong guy to climb up a mountain.
That might just be how Anna relates to gloomy women such as Belle. Elsa was the somber serious one, and so Anna grew up being the cutesy playful one, and she hasn’t had much time to grow out of that.
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November 3, 2014 at 5:04 pm #288802PriceofMagicParticipantA few weeks ago, I thought I would like the Snow Queen plot, but now I’ve had enough of the Evil Luna Lovegood act. The intelligent dreamy babbler works as a supporting character, but like a laxative: for occasional use only.
LOL!
Snowing: While I don’t like Snowing for the most part; I find the character of Snow to be a strong and independent person. However, since she gave birth to Noah (yes that is what I call him) the writers feel she should be a dingbat. She doesn’t have the Bandit Snow spunk. In this episode I would have expected her to be in the forefront of the action. Nope, nada, zip….Having a child changes you but not this much.
I call the baby Nemo because eventually Charming is going to end up finding him (though he kind of did already when Zelena took him). Also Nemo spelt backwards is omen.
I agree about Snow being a “dingbat”, she’s kind of been that even before Nemo was born. It seems that when the curse broke, whilst everyone else reverted back to their original personalities, Snow’s Mary-Magaretness became centre stage.
Regina/Robin: I don’t like Robin. I like Regina and then I don’t. In this episode I liked Robin even less than before. Regina handled the situation better, but I just don’t see them together. I don’t buy that they are soul mates. I don’t believe in the pixie dust. Instead of him I would like her to be with someone like Will. She needs someone that will test her and aggravate her at the same time. Like you know normal couples. I don’t see playful banter with them.
I agree with this 100% apart from the Will pairing only because he has his own true love. But totally agree about Robin. I’ve been very critical of Regina lately but this episode she kind of redeemed herself. But Robin needs to get lost now. I had a feeling this would happen at the end of 3B. OQ was written into a situation where, unless it was handled very carefully, it would make the characters look bad. That’s exactly what has happened now to Robin. Whereas before he was a fairly decent guy, though not necessarily the sharpest tool in the box, now he just seems like a slimy douchebag.
Let’s talk about women.
Specifically, let’s talk about the idea that ONCE writes strong women.
I think before you can discuss “strong women”, you have to define “what makes a strong woman?”
Does being in a relationship make a woman any less strong?
Does accepting help from others make a woman any less strong?
Does asking for help from others make a woman any less strong?Why does introducing a man into any situation suddenly make a woman “weak” in comparison? Why does a man saving a woman make the woman a “damsel in distress” whilst a woman saving a woman shows independence and teamwork?
Perhaps Anna was trying to show off to impress Belle that made her fall on her face rather than a lack of ability?
All magic comes with a price!
Keeper of FelixNovember 3, 2014 at 5:27 pm #288809SlurpeezParticipantI think before you can discuss “strong women”, you have to define “what makes a strong woman?”
A strong woman is someone who has a strong sense of self.
Does being in a relationship make a woman any less strong?
No, not necessarily. I think a strong woman is content in who she is, whether single or married. She doesn’t look for her identity in a relationship, romantic or otherwise, but rather brings a lot to a relationship because of who she is.
However, sometimes being in a relationship can make a woman lose sight of herself or to doubt her self worth. When that happens, she can lose some of her inner strength she may have when on her own. In my opinion, a good relationship is one that makes a woman even stronger than she ever was on her own. “Love is strength” is the sign of any healthy relationship.
Does accepting help from others make a woman any less strong?
No, of course not. Knowing one’s own limits is a sign of inner strength, because it shows self-awareness and maturity. “Know thyself” said Socrates. This applies to women and men. Also, giving and receiving help is the sign of good team work. Emma and Regina combining their magic on multiple occasions is a good example of this notion of accepting help and working together to be stronger as a unit.
Does asking for help from others make a woman any less strong?
Nope. Regina has needed Emma’s help on many occasions, just as Emma has relied on Regina’s help to defeat Zelena. It’s just what they do. The S2 princess treck was very much a sisterhood-of-the-traveling-pants type journey. Even little Aurora showed strength of spirit when Cora tempted her. There are also plenty of examples of Snow giving and receiving help from Ruby, from Charming, from the dwarves, from Rumple, and even Regina in S3.
Why does introducing a man into any situation suddenly make a woman “weak” in comparison? Why does a man saving a woman make the woman a “damsel in distress” whilst a woman saving a woman shows independence and teamwork?
It doesn’t make a woman weak if she needs saving every now and again. However, if she is only being saved, rather than doing the saving at least some of the time, it makes her seem like a passive agent rather than an active one. That was why Snow White and Charming’s relationship in S1 was so great. They often saved each other and took turns doing it. Teamwork is part of any good and healthy marriage. As Rocky said, “she’s got gaps, I got gaps, together we fill each other’s gaps.” Snow and Charming’s marriage started out this way on a strong note about taking back the kingdom, together. And while they’re still a strong team, they’ve gotten limited screen time and adventure due to Ginny Goodwin’s pregnancy and subsequent request for maternal leave.
"That’s how you know you’ve really got a home. When you leave it, there’s this feeling that you can’t shake. You just miss it." Neal Cassidy
November 3, 2014 at 5:47 pm #288812KebParticipantI love that we’ve got such a MIX of strong female characters, which doesn’t just mean they’re BA in a fight.
We’ve got girls who dress/behave all along the feminine-masculine spectrum, and even the strongest girls (like Emma & Mulan, who arguably behave in the most masculine ways) sometimes embrace their softer sides (Emma’s date dress?). And you’ve got women who don’t fit the traditional “strong female character” mold at all, like Belle, but still save the day in their own ways. (Last night was not Belle’s save the day night. But we’ve seen her do it. It is not a failing for her to sometimes need her husband or her father or her mother or heck, even Archie, to help her out.)
Because if it diminishes a woman to need a man’s help for -anything-, then does it not also diminish a man to need a woman’s help?
I love that Belle is allowed to save the day in a dress sometimes. I love that Rumple is allowed to save her sometimes. I love that I can believe, in the end, they will save each other every time–just like Snowing.
Keeper of Belle's Gold magic, sand dollar, cloaks, purple FTL outfit, spell scroll, library key, copy of Romeo and Juliet, and cry-muffling pillow, Rumple's doll, overcoat, and strength, and The Timeline. My spreadsheet: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B6r8CySCCWd9R0RUNm4xR3RhMEU/view?usp=sharing
November 3, 2014 at 6:13 pm #288817RumplesGirlKeymasterHoly moly. There’s a lot to respond to so I’m going to do basic bullet points.
@KPercyman: I agree with pretty much everything you wrote. Everyone feels off kilter to me.Why does introducing a man into any situation suddenly make a woman “weak” in comparison? Why does a man saving a woman make the woman a “damsel in distress” whilst a woman saving a woman shows independence and teamwork?
I never once said this!
But I agree with Slurpeez and what she wrote. I don’t mind men saving women and I don’t mind women saving men and I don’t mind women saving women or men saving men. What I mind, for this episode, is that Belle is crumpled up on the floor begging for forgiveness and saying she doesn’t deserve to be with Rumple as if her somewhat minor crime matches the TRULY terrible ones he’s committed–the ones she actually knows about and has never once blinked at. But now suddenly, she’s the weak and bad woman who should be seeking redemption? The heck?
I love that I can believe, in the end, they will save each other every time–just like Snowing.
That’s sweet and romantic and it’s exactly how ONCE will play it because this show is too much “fairy tale” at times, but it totally diminishes the fact that Rumple has done seriously horrible things and that Belle just deciding that love conquers all is incredibly problematic from a “what’s the message standpoint.”
"He was a lot of things to me" "The only conclusion was love"November 3, 2014 at 7:02 pm #288828SlurpeezParticipantDisregard
"That’s how you know you’ve really got a home. When you leave it, there’s this feeling that you can’t shake. You just miss it." Neal Cassidy
November 4, 2014 at 7:39 am #288886PriceofMagicParticipantI never once said this!
But I agree with Slurpeez and what she wrote. I don’t mind men saving women and I don’t mind women saving men and I don’t mind women saving women or men saving men. What I mind, for this episode, is that Belle is crumpled up on the floor begging for forgiveness and saying she doesn’t deserve to be with Rumple as if her somewhat minor crime matches the TRULY terrible ones he’s committed–the ones she actually knows about and has never once blinked at. But now suddenly, she’s the weak and bad woman who should be seeking redemption? The heck?
I never said you did, but the implication as I read it seemed to be that the female characters weren’t being written as “strong” just because last episode they weren’t all Miss independent.
In regards to Belle begging for forgiveness- What Belle did was minor, the audience knows this, Rumple knows this but to Belle it’s huge. She thinks she’s the worst person in the world for keeping secrets and attempting to use the dagger when Rumple is keeping a great big whopper of a secret. Rumple is trying to comfort Belle without spilling his secret, and not only is he digging a deeper hole for himself, but he is feeling guilty about doing so. Just the look on his face says it all;
That is not the look of someone happy that they are not being honest with their wife. That is the look of someone who is feeling very guilty that they are deceiving their wife when their wife is upset at not being honest but things have progressed too far for the answer to just be a simple tell the truth.
This episode has certainly closed the trap around Rumple, all of Belle’s actions this episode relate directly to Rumple’s lies and gave him reason why he couldn’t tell the truth. Every time Rumple was caught in the lie, his reaction was to panic and lie his way out of it thus digging himself deeper.
The Dagger- Belle attempted to use the dagger on Rumple. Because it was a fake, at least Rumple could do his best to keep Belle safe even if he had to play along with being controlled. For example, Going inside the cave and getting Belle and taking them back to the shop before the SQ came. He couldn’t have done that if Belle had the real dagger as he would’ve been bound to stay outside and he would’ve had to let go when Belle was telling him to in the cave. Thus he can’t tell Belle about the dagger because keeping her safe requires him to be in control of himself at all times.
The Hat- Belle knows what the hat does, she knows it’s not a good thing. Besides the fact that Rumple panicked and denied all knowledge of the hat, Belle’s attitude towards the hat suggests that if she found out Rumple had the hat all along and had used it, she won’t be very happy with him thus telling her about the hat is no longer an option for Rumple.
The lie- Belle is beating herself up over telling a small lie because she “knows Rumple would never keep a secret from her”. That line right there is the reason why Rumple can’t tell her he lied.
It’s the classic two people have something to say to each other, one happy, one not happy and because the happy one goes first, it prevents the unhappy one from saying their piece or vice versa if that makes sense. It is commonly used in tv when one character has “news”. For example, if a guy want to break up with a girl and the girl wants to tell him she’s pregnant. If the girl goes first, it prevents the guy from breaking up with her as he can’t just leave her in that situation. If the guy goes first, it prevents the girl from telling him she’s pregnant because she doesn’t want to tie him down.
Belle’s “I know you would never keep (a secret) from me” is that line.
Also Rumple doesn’t want to lose Belle. After Bae’s death, Belle is the only person left that Rumple truly cares about (maybe Henry too but that is more by proxy of Neal than Henry in his own right). Rumple’s lies are because he doesn’t want to lose Belle but ironically it is the lies that are going to cause him to lose Belle.
All magic comes with a price!
Keeper of FelixNovember 4, 2014 at 8:18 am #288887RumplesGirlKeymasterumple is trying to comfort Belle without spilling his secret, and not only is he digging a deeper hole for himself, but he is feeling guilty about doing so. Just the look on his face says it all;
I’m not saying he doesn’t feel guilty ad I’ve said many times that Bobby knocked this out of the park. But his acting abilities don’t negate what terrible things he is doing and how his lies are now making her feel.
His guilty feelings don’t take away from what he’s doing–all the lies and the murder of Zelena and then the more lies. I’m glad he feels guilty. He should. Doesn’t mean his sad face gets him a free pass from judgement and criticism of those actions.
"He was a lot of things to me" "The only conclusion was love"November 4, 2014 at 8:31 am #288890PriceofMagicParticipantHis guilty feelings don’t take away from what he’s doing–all the lies and the murder of Zelena and then the more lies. I’m glad he feels guilty. He should. Doesn’t mean his sad face gets him a free pass from judgement and criticism of those actions.
I agree that Rumple does need to tell Belle the truth but in a “tell the truth before it blows up in your face” kind of way.
All magic comes with a price!
Keeper of FelixNovember 4, 2014 at 10:07 am #288893SlurpeezParticipantI never said you did, but the implication as I read it seemed to be that the female characters weren’t being written as “strong” just because last episode they weren’t all Miss independent.
I read an excellent essay the other day how writing strong women isn’t as important as writing interesting women. As it applies to this topic, I’ll share it here. (Edited for language)
Well, first of all, WELCOME TO ONE OF MY PET PEEVES.
A female character does not have to be “strong” (whatever your definition of that is) to be a good character.
Women can be strong, or wussy, or emotional, or stoic, or needy, or independent, and still be legitimate people and interesting characters.
In our totally understandable desire to see portrayals of strong women (in reaction to decades of damsels in distress and women as appendages), we’ve somehow backed ourselves into this corner where the only acceptable portrayal of a woman in the media is a strong, kick-butt woman. That is not doing women any favors. It just leads to the attitude that you have to be ONE WAY ONLY to be legit as a woman. You shouldn’t have to be Natasha Romanoff or Xena to be considered a good character. Don’t get me wrong, I love a good Buffy as much as the next person, but that should not be the only acceptable portrayal. It should be okay for a female character NOT to be strong, too. Let’s take Molly Hooper as an example. She is not the stereotypical “strong” woman. But heck, she went through medical school, didn’t she? She’s smart, and she’s funny, and she serves a story function – she is not a major character, but she doesn’t have to be. But her character gets criticized because she pines after Sherlock. What, you never pined after somebody? Did it make you invalid as a person? You never got a bit silly over a crush? I know I did. And I still consider myself a strong woman. It should be okay for Molly to have a crush on Sherlock without getting the “oh, she’s so pathetic, what a terrible example, what a horrible female character” thing she so often gets. Yes, because it’s so terrible that a female character should reflect an experience that like 99% of us have had.
Screw writing “strong” women. Write interesting women. Write well-rounded women. Write complicated women. Write a woman who kicks butt, write a woman who cowers in a corner. Write a woman who’s desperate for a husband. Write a woman who doesn’t need a man. Write women who cry, women who rant, women who are shy, women who don’t take no crap, women who need validation and women who don’t care what anybody thinks. THEY ARE ALL OKAY, and all those things could exist in THE SAME WOMAN. Women shouldn’t be valued because we are strong, or kick-butt, but because we are people. So don’t focus on writing characters who are strong. Write characters who are people.
The only bad female character, if you ask me (and you did), is one who’s flat. One who isn’t realistic. One who has no agency of her own, who only exists to define other characters (usually men). Write each woman you write as if she has her own life story, her own motivations, her own fears and strengths, and even if she’s only in the story for one page, she will be a real person, and THAT is what we need. Not a phalanx of women who can karate-chop your head off, but REAL women, who are people, with all the complexity and strong and not-strong that goes with it.
This is why I disagree with the “damsel in distress” criticism of Irene in the last scene of Scandal. Here’s the thing about being a damsel in distress…it’s only bad if that’s all she is. If the character’s defining characteristic is being a damsel in distress, that’s bad. But if an otherwise complex character with lots of other agency and actions happens to be in distress, then…that’s all it is. She is in distress. That happens. Characters are often in distress, or there would be no plots. Should a female character never be allowed to be in distress, at ALL, to be valid? No.
A strong female character is one who is defined by her own characteristics, history and personality, and not solely by the actions or needs of other characters. She is a person in the story, not a prop. That is the best definition I can come up with. Note that my definition did not involve martial arts.
I thought this was well expressed. Female characters don’t have to be constantly shown to be kicking butt to still be multi-facetted. The mark of bad writing is when a character (male or female) merely becomes one-dimensional or an accessory. Also, I’m reminded of something George R. R. Martin said once about how he writes such convincing female characters:
There’s one thing that’s interesting about your books. I noticed that you write women really well and really different. Where does that come from?
George R.R. Martin: You know, I’ve always considered women to be people.Martin is a great author, and one of the reasons his stories never grow old is because he creates such vibrant characters, both male and female.
So if I remark that Snow White seems a shadow of her former self, it’s not because she’s not out slaying ogres or shooting bows an arrows. It’s because she has been relegated to a secondary character and her story is no longer worth telling in the minds of the writers. Yes, she’s a mother of a young child, but that doesn’t mean she has to be written as a one-note supporting character. The same goes for Charming, whose role is a big question mark. It seems like both Snow and Charming have ceased being strong characters, not because they lack physical strength or got married, but because they’ve been sidelined.
"That’s how you know you’ve really got a home. When you leave it, there’s this feeling that you can’t shake. You just miss it." Neal Cassidy
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