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What did you all think of Snow in this episode?
Honestly? I am exasperated with her and Charming. The writers are trying so hard to shoehorn in all the themes of Frozen that because Emma = Frozen Move! Elsa, they are making Snowing out to be the parents who are rejecting their daughter out of fear. In what universe do Snow and Charming not go after their daughter to at least TALK to her??? In what universe does it take a pep talk from Regina (the step mother who tried to kill Snow…) to remind them how to parent? Does anyone else remember when Snow and Charming knew they might die but they followed Emma in the mines anyway, believing in her and believing in what she might be able to do??
I agree.
This was brought up in the CS thread.
As a parent myself, I really didn’t like how they portrayed the Charmings last night – especially Daddy Charming. I am NOT one to jump on the “Out of Character” bandwagon but I felt like something in particular he said was totally out of character. At one point Charming said something like it might be better for Emma to go ahead and get rid of her powers because it would allow her to be normal. That is not EVER something that Daddy Charming would say about Emma and that is a terrible thing to say about your child, no matter how old they are, I was not surprised that Elsa AND Regina were horrified by the fact that they felt that way. Seriously, substitute ANYTHING “different” in place of “magic” and see how it sounds to have a parent say it might be better to have their child get rid of it so they can be normal. “It might be better for her to get rid of her asperger’s so she can be normal.” ” It might be better for her to get rid of her wheelchair so she can be normal.” “It might be better for him to get rid of his dyslexia so he can be normal.” “It might be better for him to get rid of his blindness so he can be normal.” Wow, that sounds like a super parent. Because the message you are sending is that you are NOT normal the way you are. Granted, parents want to do everything they can to help their kids live the fullest life possible, so doing whatever they need to do to help and support Emma with her magic – wonderful. Just like good parents would do everything they can to help and support their kids with any of the above. “Normal” is a relative term – and actually one of the things that I found surprising about the fact that they chose to have Charming use the word. We are talking about fairy tale characters from the EF Forest here. Is it really NOT normal for people to have magic there? Can someone please describe what IS considered “normal” to those people???
It also reminded me of Snow’s confession in the Echo Caves. Before the wanting a baby bit.
Our daughter is a beautiful, smart, amazing woman whom I love very much, and of whom I could not be more proud.
I know Snow and Charming love Emma and all, there’s only so much they can do as adult parents to an adult child who can make her own decisions, but I’m not sure common sense exists in EF parenting.
He did lie to her initially about his plan, but when she asked whether she’d be all right afterwards, he was (for Rumple) reasonably honest. The line that sticks out for me is when he tells her outright that she doesn’t need to change. It’s buried in his otherwise honest assessment of her that he’s still using to manipulate her into giving him her power, but I think there’s a part of Rumple that didn’t want to hurt her.
You know Keb, I think you’re probably in the elite few on this board who still see good in Rumple or at least try to rationalize he’s still good.
I quite frankly lost faith in him a long time ago after 4×04 and especially 4×06. True, he didn’t shove Emma into the room where the hat was but still had other opportunities to tell her what was really behind that door.
But I can’t ignore how he gleefully told Ingrid that he’s going to take away Emma’s powers in her lair. He came there to gloat in her face. Let’s face it.
That doesn’t sound like someone who has regrets or cares about what’s about to happen to the other individual. That is a psychopath, IMO.
[adrotate group="5"]This was brought up in the CS thread.
Big ol’ #PREACH to KHF! They are rewritting Snowing in order to fit into the Frozen mold and it’s…well, it’s annoying because I don’t have amnesia and I remember the sort of parents they are.
I quite frankly lost faith in him a long time after 4×04 and especially 4×06. True, he didn’t shove Emma into the room where the hat was but still had other opportunities to tell her what was really behind that door.
There has been some discussion of choice and agency in regards to Emma and Rumple but if you listen closely Rumple is manipulating Emma’s choice.
This is the basic breakdown once Emma asks “what would you do?”
Rumple: I am a man who does WRONG things so I WOULD NOT go into that room.
Wrong Choice = Not Going Into Room
Rumple: You, Emma Swan, are a hero who always does the RIGHT thing, which is not what I would do.
Right Choice = Going Into the Room
Rumple: You don’t need to change who you are, the person who does right things. Don’t be like me!
Rumple is giving her the allusion of choice but really he’s telling her that in order to do the heroic good thing, she must go into that room or risk being a villain who makes bad choices.
"He was a lot of things to me" "The only conclusion was love"Big ol’ #PREACH to KHF!
I thought you might like that RG. I totally approved of that post too.
There has been some discussion of choice and agency in regards to Emma and Rumple but if you listen closely Rumple is manipulating Emma’s choice.
This is the basic breakdown once Emma asks “what would you do?”
Rumple: I am a man who does WRONG things so I WOULD NOT go into that room.
Wrong Choice = Not Going Into Room
Rumple: You, Emma Swan, are a hero who always does the RIGHT thing, which is not what I would do.
Right Choice = Going Into the Room
Rumple: You don’t need to change who you are, the person who does right things. Don’t be like me!
Rumple is giving her the allusion of choice but really he’s telling her that in order to do the heroic good thing, she must go into that room or risk being a villain who makes bad choices.
There has been some discussion of choice and agency in regards to Emma and Rumple but if you listen closely Rumple is manipulating Emma’s choice.
This is the basic breakdown once Emma asks “what would you do?”
Rumple: I am a man who does WRONG things so I WOULD NOT go into that room.
Wrong Choice = Not Going Into Room
Rumple: You, Emma Swan, are a hero who always does the RIGHT thing, which is not what I would do.
Right Choice = Going Into the Room
Rumple: You don’t need to change who you are, the person who does right things. Don’t be like me!
Rumple is giving her the allusion of choice but really he’s telling her that in order to do the heroic good thing, she must go into that room or risk being a villain who makes bad choices.
This! Rumple is the master of manipulating people. Rumple’s not lying in that scene, but he’s twisting the truth to fit his agenda. As Adam and Eddy have stated, Rumple is the devil himself.
He is the devil. But every single thing he says in that scene is ambiguous and true both in its manipulative purpose and its underlying sentiment.
He wouldn’t go into that room because he makes wrong choices–yes, that tells Emma “DO IT” but at the same time he’s saying that if he were actually making a good choice, he’d give up his powers because he’s a bad guy with them. And he won’t (because he’s afraid and because he believes he’s a villain who can’t change).
Emma makes good choices and is a good guy. He does not outright state that she SHOULD go in the room (though yes he is manipulating her toward that choice). He says she doesn’t need to change. It can be read both as “you’re better off with your powers, as you are” AND “you don’t need to change your mind about going in there.” And for him, in that moment, both statements are true.
And I do think they point to an underlying internal conflict about what he’s doing. He’s good with words–capable of saying the truth while still manipulating people to do what he needs them to do. I think this speech is the best example of that, and to look at it only in one light is to slight the mastery of both RC’s delivery and the development of a truly complex villain.
His scene with DQ is the one that confirms for me that a, this was an opportunity he couldn’t pass up rather than the plan all along and b, something that he has mixed feelings about.
And while I admit I’m in denial that he would ultimately have killed Henry (thankfully, we’ll never know), if half-heartedly attempting to put Emma into a hat is the straw that breaks you on Rumple…you’ve got a pretty high tolerance for evil already. We’ve watched him outright murder no fewer than 17 people, including his son’s mother, and manipulate others in to killing, betraying, and endangering people they loved. We have watched him take sadistic pleasure in beating and torturing helpless people.
As adorable as he is when he expresses his love for his son and Belle, as awesome as he is when he points our heroes in the right direction and tells them the hard truths they need to hear, as heroic as his death to stop Pan was…Rumplestiltskin is Not a Nice Guy. And he knows it.
And yet, yes, I do still see good in him. I do still want to see that good man drawn out over the course of his story. I want to see him fighting for the people he loves and fighting the darkness he loathes within himself.
Keeper of Belle's Gold magic, sand dollar, cloaks, purple FTL outfit, spell scroll, library key, copy of Romeo and Juliet, and cry-muffling pillow, Rumple's doll, overcoat, and strength, and The Timeline. My spreadsheet: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B6r8CySCCWd9R0RUNm4xR3RhMEU/view?usp=sharing
He is the devil. But every single thing he says in that scene is ambiguous and true both in its manipulative purpose and its underlying sentiment.
I disagree strongly with Rumple being “the devil” I disagreed with that turn of phrase when A&E said it in interview. Rumple is not “the devil”, he does have good in him, yes he makes wrong choices, yes he can be selfish, yes he does lie and manipulate, but so does Regina, so does Hook, so does every morally dubious character on the show. Rumple is not the worst of the worst, he’s certainly not the big bad of the show.
He wouldn’t go into that room because he makes wrong choices–yes, that tells Emma “DO IT” but at the same time he’s saying that if he were actually making a good choice, he’d give up his powers because he’s a bad guy with them. And he won’t (because he’s afraid and because he believes he’s a villain who can’t change).
Emma makes good choices and is a good guy. He does not outright state that she SHOULD go in the room (though yes he is manipulating her toward that choice). He says she doesn’t need to change. It can be read both as “you’re better off with your powers, as you are” AND “you don’t need to change your mind about going in there.” And for him, in that moment, both statements are true.
And I do think they point to an underlying internal conflict about what he’s doing. He’s good with words–capable of saying the truth while still manipulating people to do what he needs them to do. I think this speech is the best example of that, and to look at it only in one light is to slight the mastery of both RC’s delivery and the development of a truly complex villain.
I think if Rumple truly wanted Emma in that hat, she’d be in that hat.
His scene with DQ is the one that confirms for me that a, this was an opportunity he couldn’t pass up rather than the plan all along and b, something that he has mixed feelings about.
I agree.
And while I admit I’m in denial that he would ultimately have killed Henry (thankfully, we’ll never know), if half-heartedly attempting to put Emma into a hat is the straw that breaks you on Rumple…you’ve got a pretty high tolerance for evil already. We’ve watched him outright murder no fewer than 17 people, including his son’s mother, and manipulate others in to killing, betraying, and endangering people they loved. We have watched him take sadistic pleasure in beating and torturing helpless people.
If Rumple truly wanted Henry dead, Henry would be dead. I do think Rumple is at war with himself. His dark side and the goodness in him are constantly battling it out and that affects Rumple’s choices. When he does something good, his dark side rears up such as giving Belle the dagger. When he’s doing something bad, his goodness stops him going ahead at full throttle such as Henry and the tyre swing. That rope was snapping so slowly. If Rumple wanted to bash Henry against the rock he needed to rip that rope from it’s frame, not slowly undo it which would’ve affected the swing’s momentum.
As adorable as he is when he expresses his love for his son and Belle, as awesome as he is when he points our heroes in the right direction and tells them the hard truths they need to hear, as heroic as his death to stop Pan was…Rumplestiltskin is Not a Nice Guy. And he knows it.
I agree. I also think that he so firmly believes that he’s a monster and unlovable that he kind of sabotages himself. Things are going good so he does something to screw it up.
And yet, yes, I do still see good in him. I do still want to see that good man drawn out over the course of his story. I want to see him fighting for the people he loves and fighting the darkness he loathes within himself.
I agree.
All magic comes with a price!
Keeper of FelixBy saying he’s the devil I don’t mean he’s the ultimate evil, just that he functions narratively the way the devil often does in stories. He tempts people, makes deals, and is the most powerful dark force we’ve seen (which is not the same as The Most Evil or the Most Powerful). As I said elsewhere, I don’t think he’s 100% evil even if he does think that.
Keeper of Belle's Gold magic, sand dollar, cloaks, purple FTL outfit, spell scroll, library key, copy of Romeo and Juliet, and cry-muffling pillow, Rumple's doll, overcoat, and strength, and The Timeline. My spreadsheet: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B6r8CySCCWd9R0RUNm4xR3RhMEU/view?usp=sharing
I think this quote from the Doctor Who (2005) episode “Boom Town” applies very well to the “How to judge Rumpel by his actions” question:
DOCTOR: You let one of them go, but that’s nothing new. Every now and then, a little victim’s spared because she smiled, because he’s got freckles, because they begged. And that’s how you live with yourself. That’s how you slaughter millions. Because once in a while, on a whim, if the wind’s in the right direction, you happen to be kind.
Episode transcript: http://www.chakoteya.net/doctorwho/27-11.htm
Gaultheria's fanvids: http://youtube.com/sagethrasher
It’s not that I don’t see good in Rumple anymore. I said this upthread with regards to something else, but I don’t have amnesia. I still remember MY Rumple…the one I’ve argued for and defended. And that’s what makes this all so GOSH DARN FRUSTRATING. I might sound like a bitter fan but it’s getting harder to see LOGIC in his choices. He wants to be free from the dagger–ok. But WHAT NEXT?! What comes after this? What is this bleeding bloody plan.
/flips a table.
"He was a lot of things to me" "The only conclusion was love"It’s not that I don’t see good in Rumple anymore. I said this upthread with regards to something else, but I don’t have amnesia. I still remember MY Rumple…the one I’ve argued for and defended. And that’s what makes this all so GOSH DARN FRUSTRATING. I might sound like a bitter fan but it’s getting harder to see LOGIC in his choices. He wants to be free from the dagger–ok. But WHAT NEXT?! What comes after this? What is this bleeding bloody plan. /flips a table.
Here is my frustration with Rumple’s current trajectory. Even though I think Rumple doesn’t really want world domination (he’s way too subtle for that in my estimation), any ultimate plan he might have doesn’t seem justifiable to me. Even if Rumple had some greater plan like to resurrect his son, his attempt to murder Emma and countless others to do so would never justify it. And I just can’t see clever Rumple being so daft as to resurrect Neal at cost of killing Emma, the woman Neal loved and died protecting. That doesn’t make any sense, because Neal would never forgive his father for that crime. So even if we discover what comes next, the means won’t justify the ends in my eyes. No one messes with Emma and gets a pass in my book. The problem is that Rumple hasn’t learned his lesson, despite all the progress he seemed to have made when he sacrificed himself to save his loved ones from his father.
"That’s how you know you’ve really got a home. When you leave it, there’s this feeling that you can’t shake. You just miss it." Neal Cassidy
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