Arrow – His name is Oliver Queen…

[Phee]

Anyone else watch this? I’m still trying to collect all my thoughts and feels after the mid season premiere.

[desa]

I do watch and since I am Olicity fan I know exactly how you feel and after mid season finale I do not know will I keep watching it.

[Phee]

I ship Olicity as endgame, but I’m actually glad they haven’t gotten it together properly so far.

Felicity deserves better than how Ollie has been treating her, romantically speaking IMO. Guggenheim tweeted recently a line from an upcoming ep, “I don’t want to be the woman you love,” and I hope in context it’s something like Felicity saying to him, “I don’t want to be the woman you love, but refuse to be with, because that’s really NOT BLEEPING FAIR and it hurts like BLEEP, so if you really do care for me as much as you claim, then man up and commit already, for BLEEP’S sake,” (or words to that effect).

He’s been struggling too much trying to figure himself out to really be a decent boyfriend to anyone IMO. Maybe the death experience will be a wake up call to force some sort of change in him, but even if it doesn’t, I’m sure he’ll get there and be good boyfriend material eventually. I’d say it’s pretty obvious that an Olicity relationship is what the writers are working towards, (they’ll probably just start to get it together and then they’ll drop the bomb of him finding out he’s got a kid, just to cause some drama).

I also have a bit of an issue with how Felicity reacted in the end in the new ep, because I’m pretty sure Ollie would NOT want them to just pack it all up and quit. He’s invested a whole lot of blood, sweat and tears over the last couple of years to try and save the city, and if they just gave up now that’d undo everything he’d been working towards and everything they’ve accomplished and all the sacrifices they’ve made will end up being for nothing. I’m not writing her off by any means, I’m giving her a pass because she’s in a RIDICULOUS amount of pain right now and I can’t really blame her for wanting to not be in the Foundry because it all hurts too much. I just hope that as she processes her grief, she comes to realise that Ollie wouldn’t want her quitting.

Diggle’s the one who really broke my heart in this ep. His scene with Laurel where he said how he still thinks of himself as Oliver’s bodyguard, and he couldn’t protect him, GAH SO SAD! 🙁

[WickedRegal]

I really like Oliver and Felicity’s relationship….right now I ship it as end game since Sarah died(cries severely again)!!! I shipped Sarah with Nysaa or Oliver…I DID NOT SHIP HER WITH DEATH!!!!!

But that Ray guy…it’s something about him I don’t like!!! I don’t know what it is…but I just don’t like him.

Laura becoming the new Black Canary…I don’t even know what to think about that. Like…you spend two months training and now you think you’re on level with your sister who endured five years of intense, painful training that came along with occasional torture. Okay then….

 

"If you go as far as you can see...you will then see enough to go even further." - Finn Balor

[Phee]

But that Ray guy…it’s something about him I don’t like!!! I don’t know what it is…but I just don’t like him.

He rubs me the wrong way, and I can’t really bring myself to like him much despite the fact I don’t think he’s a bad person, (obviously ATOM is one of the good guys, so Ray can’t be bad).

Part of it is how he pursued Felicity, (buying a corporation so a girl is forced to work for you is not cute, showing up unannounced and uninvited on an employee’s doorstep first thing in the morning is not cute, pinging a girl’s phone to find her location and then showing up expecting to speak to her is not cute, all but bribing a girl into going on a (work?) date with you by buying her expensive clothes is not cute).

Part of it is how he stole Oliver’s family’s company right when he wanted to try and rebuild it and restore some good faith in his family’s name, and Ray robbed him of the chance.

Part of it is how mysteriously they presented him so we didn’t know exactly what he was up to with the OMAC files he got Felicity to recover for him, so I didn’t know if I should be excited to see what he was gonna do, or scared of what he had the capacity to do, so I just couldn’t connect with him.

I am however looking forward to seeing the upcoming ep where he and Felicity will crossover to The Flash, because I imagine Ray and Cisco geeking out over tech stuff will be sort of adorable. I think Ray would probably be a better fit on that show, rather than Arrow, (though I know they’re also talking about maybe giving him his own spin off).

Laura becoming the new Black Canary…I don’t even know what to think about that. Like…you spend two months training and now you think you’re on level with your sister who endured five years of intense, painful training that came along with occasional torture. Okay then….

Ah, I’m one of that (small) group of people who actually likes Laurel, (I swear Laurel Lance/Katie Cassidy is the Arrow fandom’s answer to Neal Cassidy/MRJ), especially after doing a full rewatch recently when I really started to appreciate her and her story arc thus far.

She hasn’t really only just had a few recent boxing lessons. Since back in S1 we’ve seen her put the smackdown on guys because as the daughter of a cop, she learned self defence. We’ve seen her grab a shotgun and confront people who broke into her apartment. So getting physically combative is not a totally new thing for her.

Also, the guy who was teaching her to properly fight wasn’t a mere boxing coach, he was Ted Wildcat Grant, former vigilante. (I was so ready for a WildCanary romance and was bummed when Guggenheim said the other day that it was honestly more of a realistic thing before the actor who plays Ted got another acting gig.)

She’s always been about standing up and fighting for justice, which is why she’s a lawyer. I think her progression to Black Canary is perfectly in keeping with that, and I liked that the first time we saw her as BC it was in a situation where she realised no matter how good a lawyer she was, sometimes it wasn’t enough and the bad guy still gets away, and she wasn’t gonna take that any more when she felt capable of doing something about it.

Also, I don’t have a problem with her suiting up because I don’t expect her to be instantly infallible, I expect her to fall down and learn a lot, and I doubt she’ll be a really formidable superhero for a while yet. She’s gotta start learning on the job at some point, and that time is now. I don’t expect her to easily slip into Team Arrow, in particular I expect Ollie will be against it, so she’ll have to prove herself to the other characters just as much as she has to prove herself to most of the fandom.

One thing about Laurel, no matter how many times she’s been kicked down, she’s pulled herself back up. She’s been through a whole lot of crap in the last few years, and she’s come out the other side wiser and stronger, and those are the types of traits that make a superhero. Also, she’s always been one to not do what people tell her, (during my rewatch it got to the point where I’d just laugh if someone told Laurel to do a thing, because she’s so stubborn, she’ll always do the thing), so if she’s headstrong now even if people like Ollie try to tell her to stop, that’s totally in character. People often say that it seems like the writers have had no idea what to do with Laurel, but personally I think they deliberately put her through what they have as a means to tear her down and build her back up, leading her to the place she’s at now, where she’s eager to step up and become Black Canary.

[Phee]

I know I’ve already rambled too much, but just have to say that I was kinda bummed with how we saw Oliver wake up. I appreciate that they had Maseo say that Tatsu had “brought him back to life”, implying that yes he really was in BAD shape. But Stephen’s said they won’t be using the Lazarus Pit on Oliver, and the way he woke up in the cabin it just seemed like Tatsu had been tending to his wounds like you would any normally injured person?

I know we have magical herbs on this show, but seriously, he was stabbed through the lung, and probably the liver, and kicked off a cliff, and I don’t buy that magical herbs can fix that. Dude should be dead. If they’re not using the Lazarus Pit, the only other thing I can think of is maybe that Alpha stuff they were going after in the flashbacks? I know Guggenheim tweeted something about Tatsu doing some surgery, and I dunno if he was being serious, but if he was…man I just dunno that I’ll be satisfied. I mean, apart from everything else, his back should be broken after that fall, and makeshift surgery in a remote mountain cabin ain’t gonna fix that.

I am however glad to see Tatsu again, and look forward to having the gaps in her and Maseo’s story filled in, (I’m guessing they ended up estranged after their son probably got killed).

Oh and speaking of the flashbacks, I really liked these because I think it’s the earliest point in the show’s timeline when we’ve seen Oliver basically in “Arrow mode”, with a trick arrow and sliding across the wire and busting through windows on a real mission. Really loved seeing that, it felt like an important step in his evolution.

[RumplesGirl]

Resurrecting thread!

So, I am seriously behind but making my way slowly through S3 of Arrow.

I just watched the Climb (also known as “in which Ollie scales a mountain, takes on Ra’s, and then proceeded to become shish-kabob”).

Since I’m behind I don’t have a *ton* to say except some passing thoughts since I think we should keep this thread going for S4 (which is a bit of a soft reboot from what I gathered at SDCC)

THOUGHTS (as they come and not in any order)

–Sarah : ohmygod a show that kills a character and then proceeds to write an entire arc around the death of this character and how her friends and family are dealing with her loss. A death that has long lasting repercussions on everyone, but most importantly on the main character (Ollie). What is this black magic?! Sorry, is my bitterness showing? No, but seriously this is how you show me that killing a character is necessary and bold. And actually I’ll be 100% I think bringing Caity Lotz to Legends of Tomorrow is a bit of a cheat to the well written “Sarah’s Death” story thus far (though, I’m fickle and will say that I look forward to her being the White Canary).

–Oliver: Poor guy. I mean, I know that’s sort of Ollie in a nut shell but man…poor guy. It’s hard watching him trying to figure out if he can the Arrow and Oliver Queen and if being one means he has to give up the other. Sometimes I think Oliver is a bit reckless, though. Going off to see Ra’s? Sure, it’s to protect Thea (which is hands down, Ollie’s raison d’etre) and sure he might have thought he could win but the reality is that it was always a long shot. Oliver stopped Slade (eventually), but he and Diggle and Felicity couldn’t think of a way to stop Ra’s and the League’s plan for the City? Also, really hate how he seems to be distancing himself from *everyone.*

Laurel: Tell. You. Father. I typically like Laurel and am glad that she’s on Team Arrow officially now (well, not super officially yet–I do know what she becomes obviously) but not telling Papa Lance is just…harsh. It’s going to hurt all the more when the truth comes out (as it invariably will and must).

Thea: Yeah, Merlyn might be your father but that means diddly squat. I’m serious. Stop clinging to him thinking that he’s your lifeline or something. If Thea keeps this up after she (hopefully) leans that Merlyn used Thea to kill Sarah in order to set up Ollie to fight Ra’s…then she needs to really sort out her priorities. Also, someone remind me why her and Roy aren’t together right now?

Felicity: Like Phee and like WR, I really don’t like Ray. I find I have more sympathy for him after he told Felicity about Anna but the dude is problematic. No, I’ll correct that: the writers are problematic. They suffer from the same understanding of male and female dynamic and “romance” that OUAT does–which is to say that they are telling the story that has been told time and time again without understanding what they are portraying and how it reduces females to mere mindless objects. Phee linked me to a Twitter thing from the writers who said “haven’t you ever seen a romantic comedy before” with regards to Ray and his troubling stalker-like actions. It’s a problem and I’m getting really tired of media telling women that a man who does all the things Ray (and others) have done is okay because “they really care about the girl!” It’s sickening. We wouldn’t expect real world women to give in to the guy who did the sort of stuff Ray has been doing! We’d be horrified. We’d tell her to seek legal help. So, media, stop giving this story merit just because “fictional.” Okay that was a rant. Back to Felicity. The first “date” with Oliver was heartbreaking as was the that first kiss because you can tell that it’s real between then. She gets Ollie in a way that other women don’t. She sees him as both Arrow and Ollie and doesn’t reject either. I kinda love Felicity. Obviously, I know how this season ends so I look forward to seeing how Olicity get there.

Diggle: Was anyone else bothered that Ollie didn’t take Diggle with him to the Mountain? Ra’s had his minions (and daughter) with him. Why couldn’t Diggle tag along? There’s never enough Diggle.

Plot Lines: Ra’s needs to go down.

I’m not feeling the Hong Kong flashbacks as much as I was Lian Yu. I like Ollie’s increasing darkness out of necessity and it adds a lot to his struggle back in the present day but so far I don’t find Tatsu and Maseo to be super compelling. I also wonder how much more flashback they can have before it becomes shtick and I seriously begin to question why no one in the world noticed Ollie Queen, alive and running around.

Obviously Ollie isn’t dead and I already know (from Phee’s above post) that the Lazarus Pit isn’t used (odd…) but I’m betting that this is the start of some serious drama and angst. If Flash is light and joviality, Arrow is dark and grim. (Also, we need a Flash thread…)

Ok…more as I keep watching.

"He was a lot of things to me" "The only conclusion was love"

[Phee]

–Sarah : ohmygod a show that kills a character and then proceeds to write an entire arc around the death of this character and how her friends and family are dealing with her loss. A death that has long lasting repercussions on everyone, but most importantly on the main character (Ollie). What is this black magic?! Sorry, is my bitterness showing? No, but seriously this is how you show me that killing a character is necessary and bold.

I know, right. Her death actually impacted multiple characters and had repercussions through the whole season. Much as I didn’t like seeing her die, I really appreciated that her death actually mattered and was shown to have an impact on the people who knew and loved her. IMAGINE THAT.

Sometimes I think Oliver is a bit reckless, though.

Many people have said that the show has become too much like they’re trying to have Oliver be Batman. Guggenheim recently said in an interview that Bruce and Oliver are very different, because Oliver makes wrong decisions all the time. For all he’s learned since getting dumped on the island, he still has much more to learn, but bless him he tries to struggle through and figure it out.

Laurel: Tell. You. Father. I typically like Laurel and am glad that she’s on Team Arrow officially now (well, not super officially yet–I do know what she becomes obviously) but not telling Papa Lance is just…harsh. It’s going to hurt all the more when the truth comes out (as it invariably will and must).

She really needed to tell him. Like, RLY. I can’t recall which ep it was in, and if it’s one you’ve seen yet or not, but when she altered her voice to sound like Sara while talking to their dad, I was like, “Oh honey, nooooo.”

But there is a payoff for Lance having been kept in the dark for so long. Come the last few eps of the season, after he’s found out about Sara, he’s suitably angry at not just Laurel, but also the Arrow, for having not told him about Sara, and that anger fuels his actions which in turns moves the plot. He gets pretty dang unlikeable at the end of the season, but looking at things from his perspective, I can’t really deny him being furious, (even if I don’t like some things he does as a result).

Also, someone remind me why her and Roy aren’t together right now?

Because we can’t have nice things, (though we do briefly get nice things before the season ends)! They’re probably my fave ship on the show, they love each other so much and I just wish they could be together forever. *sigh*

I always thought they were a fun little pair of punks, but it was S3 that made me love them so much more. It was that ep where they were in Corto Maltese, and Roy so clearly has ALL the HEART EYES for her, so much so that he’s willing to respect her wishes when she tells him she needs her space to be her own person and do her own thing, (which…now I’m thinking about how their story ends up by season’s end, and it’s a total full circle thing, because she goes to be with him and he leaves her with the letter saying how she has to become the person she’s meant to be and he wants that for her so much that he recognises that she has to do that on her own, which is why he has to leave…brb sobbing forever). I have to have a headcanon that eventually they’ll end up together forever, and no one can convince me otherwise.

It’s a problem and I’m getting really tired of media telling women that a man who does all the things Ray (and others) have done is okay because “they really care about the girl!” It’s sickening. We wouldn’t expect real world women to give in to the guy who did the sort of stuff Ray has been doing! We’d be horrified. We’d tell her to seek legal help. So, media, stop giving this story merit just because “fictional.”

It’s kinda perplexing that the same writers who gave us Respectful!Roy also gave us Disrespectful!Ray. I really wish they’d used Ray differently. Lots of people complain about how Felicity acted this season, and it’s always, “OMG all she did was whine and cry all the time,” (which…incorrect, she actually did plenty of other stuff too, and seriously the stuff she was crying about I can’t really blame her), but the only real issue I have with her is how she fell for Ray’s “charms”. People say it was her “crying” that made her lose the strength she once had, but I reckon her loss of strength was when she got with Ray. Whatever emotional turmoil she was going through with Oliver, she still should have been smart enough to not give in to Ray’s persistence and expensive gifts. That whole part of the story was just icky to me.

Okay that was a rant. Back to Felicity. The first “date” with Oliver was heartbreaking as was the that first kiss because you can tell that it’s real between then. She gets Ollie in a way that other women don’t. She sees him as both Arrow and Ollie and doesn’t reject either. I kinda love Felicity. Obviously, I know how this season ends so I look forward to seeing how Olicity get there.

For all her weakness when it came to Ray, I enjoyed how she stuck to her convictions when it came to Oliver. There’s a scene (which I don’t think you’d have seen yet?) where she tells him, “I don’t want to be a woman that you love.” It was great because even though she absolutely wants to be with him, she was making it clear that she wasn’t gonna automatically approve of decisions he was making, and she wasn’t quick to drop the L word no matter how many times he said it to her. She’s the exact type of woman he needs, they balance each other and make a great team both personally and professionally. (The only time she really lost her mind a bit was right after they finally had sexy times, but I can forgive her for that because frankly I doubt I’d be thinking straight either immediately after sexy times with Oliver Queen. :-P)

Diggle: Was anyone else bothered that Ollie didn’t take Diggle with him to the Mountain? Ra’s had his minions (and daughter) with him. Why couldn’t Diggle tag along? There’s never enough Diggle.

S4 is supposed to have lots more Diggle and I can’t wait! (Though I wish Deadshot were still gonna be around, because their almost!bromance is so important and…but I digress before ending up in a full on rant because FLOOOYYYD *sigh*). Digg probably wasn’t allowed to go to the mountain, it had to be a solo mission. He and Oliver have some great, and some not so great moments coming up in the rest of the season.

I’m not feeling the Hong Kong flashbacks as much as I was Lian Yu. I like Ollie’s increasing darkness out of necessity and it adds a lot to his struggle back in the present day but so far I don’t find Tatsu and Maseo to be super compelling. I also wonder how much more flashback they can have before it becomes shtick and I seriously begin to question why no one in the world noticed Ollie Queen, alive and running around.

General opinion was that the HK flashbacks left much to be desired. It felt a bit like they didn’t have enough action packed story to tell there, so it felt a bit drawn out and uneventful along the way. Though the flashbacks do give us Oliver’s first ever, “You have failed this city,” by season’s end, which was pretty cool, and that same scene shows him in a pretty dark and torture-y headspace.

I’ve wondered if maybe this season’s flashbacks suffered a bit due to being the middle of the road of his flashback journey. As we’re seeing him evolve to a place of being a more well adjusted and happier person over 5 seasons’ worth of present day stuff, so we’re seeing him devolve into a darker person over 5 seasons’ worth of flashbacks, and S3 is bang in the middle of that journey. They were much more successful writing his present day identity crisis transition phase than they were in the flashbacks, (maybe just by virtue of having more screen time to showcase it?), though I think that by the end of the flashbacks, that particular scene I mentioned above, they’d gotten him to the next step in his evolution, and his growing relationship with the Yamashiros and the death of Akio was a factor in him getting to that place.

Maseo’s character arc just made me sad, and I kinda wish they’d done something different with him. But I guess if they hadn’t made his arc so sad, they couldn’t have had his final scene with Tatsu be so heartbreaking, and that really was a great scene. That scene made me glad that we’d gotten to know them through the flashbacks, (and I hope that once the movie has been and gone that we can have Tatsu back on the show as Katana again).

This season seemed to have a few moments that were great climaxes to an arc, even if the way they got there sometimes left a little to be desired.

[RumplesGirl]

She really needed to tell him. Like, RLY. I can’t recall which ep it was in, and if it’s one you’ve seen yet or not, but when she altered her voice to sound like Sara while talking to their dad, I was like, “Oh honey, nooooo.”

Well speaking of Laurel and Sara, the former just put on the latter’s mask and became the Black Canary for the first time. First off, can we talk about the impractical nature of having your long flowing hair down instead of up when fighting bad guys? This has always bothered me. Anyway…I thought it was a super fast jump to Laurel deciding to pick up Sara’s mantel. I knew it was coming, obviously, from comic books and Tumblr but I thought it was just so fast. I expected to be inside her head and really struggle with the decision. I guess, in the wake of thinking Oliver is dead, everyone is picking up the pieces the best they can and this is Laurel’s way of dealing but it still felt rather unearned given that for 2.5 years she’s been fighting the good fight on the outside instead of the inside. I sort of like that about her. She thinks the best way to deal with the death of Oliver is to become a superhero herself? I don’t know that this is a logical conclusion to draw and if it was for Laurel, then I’d like to see her thought process more because after Sara and Ollie she clearly knows that the lifespan of a superhero in this city is rather tiny.

t’s kinda perplexing that the same writers who gave us Respectful!Roy also gave us Disrespectful!Ray. I really wish they’d used Ray differently. Lots of people complain about how Felicity acted this season, and it’s always, “OMG all she did was whine and cry all the time,” (which…incorrect, she actually did plenty of other stuff too, and seriously the stuff she was crying about I can’t really blame her), but the only real issue I have with her is how she fell for Ray’s “charms”. People say it was her “crying” that made her lose the strength she once had, but I reckon her loss of strength was when she got with Ray. Whatever emotional turmoil she was going through with Oliver, she still should have been smart enough to not give in to Ray’s persistence and expensive gifts. That whole part of the story was just icky to me.

I am 100% okay with Felicity’s emotional reactions to things thus far. I think it works well for a show that is complex and deals heavily in loss. In this past episode I watched, Felicity actually says something like “I’m only 25 and I’ve lost so many people” and for her to go through all this and NOT be emotional would be disingenuous to the character and situation. I’d also have less of a problem with Raylicity (because we all know Olicity is end game even if it takes awhile) if they hadn’t written Ray the way they did. If he had been less stalkery and had it been Felicity who began to fall for Ray, while he was falling for her, but without the stalking, the dress buying, the coercing into dinner and the emotional manipulating of “I want to save the city and only you can help me!” This last one especially bothers me because Ray is placing so much pressure on Felicity.

Speaking of Ray, maybe it’s because Ollie is the hero of the show and the writers have shown, every episode, how much unbelievable CRAP Ollie has been through over the past 5 years away from his city, but Ray’s bout of heroism and need to save the city falls so flat in comparison. I know that’s the point; Ray’s is more or less Ollie’s foil: both have a romantic heroic streak to them after going through something traumatic but where Ollie is grim faced and tortured, Ray does it all with a smile. He’s a boy with some cool toys and he thinks becoming a superhero will be fun and cool. It…bugs. But maybe that’s also because I don’t know that Ray “gets it.” He lost Anna in a freak occurrence but it doesn’t really strike him that this sort of stuff is going to be his day to day life should he chose to actually become ATOM. He’s more like Barry, actually. He’s happy and jovial about the idea of being a superhero instead of realizing it’s a heavy burden.

Digg probably wasn’t allowed to go to the mountain, it had to be a solo mission. He and Oliver have some great, and some not so great moments coming up in the rest of the season.

That makes sense then. Also, Digg just said the whole “I was his (Ollie’s) bodyguard and I couldn’t protect him” and I was like “uuuugggghhhh what is emotion?”

 

"He was a lot of things to me" "The only conclusion was love"

[Phee]

First off, can we talk about the impractical nature of having your long flowing hair down instead of up when fighting bad guys? This has always bothered me.

The hoods aren’t exactly practical either when you’ve got people trying to attack from all around. What is peripheral vision?

I expected to be inside her head and really struggle with the decision.

You’re in luck then, because in a few eps you’ll see one where she gets hit with Vertigo and it manifests as “Sara” beating the crap out of her physically and psychologically, and the whole situation addresses the mess that’s going on in Laurel’s head about why she’s doing this superhero thing and whether or not she’s worthy to do it.

Also, she’s gonna kinda suck at the fighting, and other characters are gonna call her out on it. There’s sort of some inconsistency where she appears to be a bit better at it in one ep, and not as good at it in the next, then better at it again, (also they seem to disregard the fact that she kicked a couple people’s butts back in S1 because her dad had made her take defense classes, but they kinda wanted her starting from scratch with her S3 fighting), but in every fight you’ll see some of her kicks and punches hitting nothing but air, and she’s gonna get some injuries, because she’s just not experienced at it yet.

She did jump into it really quickly, but it’s definitely not gonna be easy for her on any level.

In this past episode I watched, Felicity actually says something like “I’m only 25 and I’ve lost so many people” and for her to go through all this and NOT be emotional would be disingenuous to the character and situation.

Exactly!

He’s a boy with some cool toys and he thinks becoming a superhero will be fun and cool. It…bugs. But maybe that’s also because I don’t know that Ray “gets it.”

He absolutely does not get it. He’s got a reality check and some schooling coming his way courtesy of Oliver though. I’ve gotta say it was rather enjoyable to see Oliver putting Ray in his place with a, “You’re dumb and will end up dead unless you shut it and listen to my superhero advice,” session.

A summary of Oliver’s opinion of Ray’s attitude…

X
Same, Ollie, same.

Also, Digg just said the whole “I was his (Ollie’s) bodyguard and I couldn’t protect him” and I was like “uuuugggghhhh what is emotion?”

It will not be the last time this season that that bromance will make you want to weep.

[Author]

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