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@the wiz wrote:
@Possum Snoodle
You wrote:I’m hunting Alice dialogue. I seem to recall Alice worried about being stuck in age, size, location, and such. Hmm.
There are several other features of Wonderland that were stuck: the Mad Tea Party, the Red Queen’s obsessions and the White Rabbit’s chronic lateness – for instance. It’s possible that Lewis Carroll was commenting on what happens when our use of logic precludes self reflection (going into a looking glass). If we cannot consider the “3 fingers pointing back at ourselves” when we point fingers at others, our own story grounds to a halt. Getting unstuck calls for seeing what we’re doing to ourselves when we do things to others and how we create our own limitations by being unimaginative.
@charming
You wrote:Booth to Lewis Carroll is a harder case to make, his real name was Charles Lutwidge Dodgson (01/27/1832 to 01/14/1898) he was mathmatician, logician and Anglican deacon. If one can find a connection that fits I can agree because 2 of the 3 does fit and the third I do not see too clearly. Thoughts???
I’m thinking the connection of Booth to Lewis Carroll is too logical and literal, just like Emma was being with Jefferson discussing what is “the real world”. Instead of what is, let’s play with what-if questions:
1. What if August Booth is merely a self-referential character for the writers of OUAT, like the White Knight was for Lewis Carroll.
2. What if Jefferson’s dialogue is an homage to Lewis Carroll’s approach to the intersection of logic and imagination?
3. What if that room with the big window and sea of hats is symbolic of how Charles Dodgson abandoned the Anglican Church’s dictates about Hell and Eternal Damnation?
4. What if Jefferson’s getting stuck in Wonderland in FTL and that abandoned church sanctuary somewhere — are the result of being unimaginative?
5. What if Jefferson created his living hell by “hating Wonderland” and “hating the curse” that kept him apart from his daughter in SB?
6. What if he will discover he has magic himself when we can abandon either/or logic and embrace both/and paradoxes?
7. What if his beheading in Wonderland shows him his logical split between his mind & body, head & heart, or thinking & feeling?
8. What if the writers of OUAT realize that Lewis Carroll could have written the show because he was both logical and imaginative, not exclusively one or the other? 😀Good points taken. We think of what is as I have always sugessted in other matter but in this case the what if does seem to fall in to place. Never thought of that…….touche. I’ll go along with this theory of the white knight until i get hard confirmation that he is not. Sure, I’m game.
@ charming: You wrote:
We think of what is as I have always sugessted in other matter but in this case the what if does seem to fall in to place. Never thought of that…….touche.
As I’ve read your recent replies on many different threads in the ONCE forums, I’m VERY impressed with your sharp mind and articulate voice. Logic comes easily to you, or so it appears to me. I’m glad you’re up for some “illogical” imaginativeness. 😀 .
@the wiz wrote:
@ charming: You wrote:
We think of what is as I have always sugessted in other matter but in this case the what if does seem to fall in to place. Never thought of that…….touche.
As I’ve read your recent replies on many different threads in the ONCE forums, I’m VERY impressed with your sharp mind and articulate voice. Logic comes easily to you, or so it appears to me. I’m glad you’re up for some “illogical” imaginativeness. 😀 .
There are times when the out of the box thoughts are in the box truths. Unorthodox becomes the orthodox when it is used regularly, then the vice versa can hold true. Logical and illogical are no different.
charming wrote:There are times when the out of the box thoughts are in the box truths. Unorthodox becomes the orthodox when it is used regularly, then the vice versa can hold true. Logical and illogical are no different.
A-ha! You speak with both/and, inclusive logic rather than either/or dichotomous logic. How imaginative!
@the wiz wrote:
charming wrote:There are times when the out of the box thoughts are in the box truths. Unorthodox becomes the orthodox when it is used regularly, then the vice versa can hold true. Logical and illogical are no different.
A-ha! You speak with both/and, inclusive logic rather than either/or dichotomous logic. How imaginative!
I am use to double thought; one I am a gemini and two I follow a taoist belief..
charming: I am use to double thought; one I am a gemini and I am a taoist.
Where a perfect image of Jefferson was getting beheaded, perhaps a perfect image of you would be standing beside yourself 😀
@the wiz wrote:
charming: I am use to double thought; one I am a gemini and I am a taoist.
Where a perfect image of Jefferson was getting beheaded, perhaps a perfect image of you would be standing beside yourself 😀
Alice in Wonderland was based on mathematics. Every character and their quirks explain a math theory based on logic and such. The growing bigger thing Alice grew exponentially as when she shrunk. Throught the Looking Glass was based on a chess game where she started at the first rank and ending with the eighth where she’s crowned Queen. Each character was a chess piece and their quirks explained the pieces movements and their limitations. Yes the Quees on a chessboard did whatever she wanted because the piece had no limits. The most limiting pieces are the pawns and the knight. Their movements are such that they do not really have free reign of the board until a pawn reaches the 8th rank where it turns into a queen and does as it pleases. August the white knight taking Emma along like Alice. When Emma reaches the eighth rank she’ll be queen because she is Snow White and Prince Charming’s daughter. She’s already a princess so her becoming queen is not far off and the knight cannot cross the last river when Alice but in this case Emma to be crowned.
charming wrote: August the white knight taking Emma along like Alice. When Emma reaches the eighth rank she’ll be queen because she is Snow White and Prince Charming’s daughter. She’s already a princess so her becoming queen is not far off and the knight cannot cross the last river when Alice but in this case Emma to be crowned.
Thanks for this charming! Several different ideas have come together in my mind this morning with your help. August may have what it takes to enter FTL through any mirror (looking glass). He may show Emma how that’s done and advance her dramatically toward becoming a Queen. The magic involved in entering through a looking glass would certainly trump Regina’s which depends on Jefferson’s magic hat.
The caterpillar’s question: “Who are you?” that annoyed EQ and Jefferson in Wonderland — is key to entering through any mirror. When anyone looks in a mirror (except vampires) s/he sees a reflection of personal physical appearances. Nothing is revealed of her/his inner life, soulfulness, connectedness to others or a burden of past history. Reacting to physical appearances prevents entry through the looking glass. Expecting the mirror to show “who’s the fairest of them all” makes the mirror impenetrable. Seeing through physical appearances to the inner truth opens up access through the mirror. Seeing others with this same serene insight sets up their accompaniment when entering through a mirror.
If Emma can come and go between FTL and SB through any mirror, she will be able to elude Regina in SB and mess with what’s happened in FTL to break the curse.
@charming wrote:
@the wiz wrote:
You’re welcome PS! I suspect the White Knight could not advance with Alice because of the metaphor of a chess board in that story. Most pieces in chess have limited moves, unlike Queens and Kings. I have yet to see August experience limited movement – so that seems to me another disparity between the White Knight and August.
The “water” issues August has revealed so far deal with how magical water can be, how good it tastes to him and how he asks for a glass at Granny’s over anything else on the menu.
Yes I agree the knight on a chess board has one of the most limiting moves or any piece. He is free to come and go from SB. He did cross the toll bridge with Emma on the back of the motorcycle. Water seems not to be the issue for him. I’ll go with royal writer. August Wayne. that makes sense. Booth to Lewis Carroll is a harder case to make, his real name was Charles Lutwidge Dodgson (01/27/1832 to 01/14/1898) he was mathmatician, logician and Anglican deacon. If one can find a connection that fits I can agree because 2 of the 3 does fit and the third I do not see too clearly. Thoughts???
Didn’t August have some physical reaction at the stream/brook’s edge? Could that be an indication he does have limited moves and the location by the water’s edge/brooke was the edge of the Storybrooke chess square? I know some fans have attributed August’s moment there with the shin splints and his pulling back from the water (wood swells) to August being Pinocchio but those same hints would apply to The Tin Woodsman, too. Plus, Pinocchio wasn’t a Royal but Tin Woodsman ruled WinkieLand. Either character would cherish water, if their Alt Selves allowed them to enjoy it without side affects but perhaps, some deep hidden memory would make them leery of uncontained water. I’m not sure exactly why August sees water as magical, unless, he is just speaking poetically – or – he knows the water is actually magical in Storybrooke IF one knows how or has the privilege of rank to use it — or—-
ǝpıs ɹǝɥʇo ǝɥʇ oʇ ʇı ɟo ǝɔɐɟɹns pǝɹoɹɹıɯ ǝɥʇ ɥbnoɹɥʇ ssɐd
August crossing over the bridge with Emma?. Yes, a knight has limited moves. So, try this: a Queen does not. Royal idea, eh? Now,”get on your bikes and ride…”♪♫ 😉
Perhaps, the pseudonym, Lewis Carroll, is as real as you and I or any character in a story – wooden boys included. Dodgson is from our world. So, I’m not saying Dodgson, the man, is the White Knight but I am saying Carroll, the created man, MAY be.
If the Lewis Carroll/White Knight Author-in-the-story concept is not exactly what the creators of OUAT are doing, I do believe something similarly intriguing will be revealed, like:
– a Writer/Editor for his world’s Story, with certain abilities when he erases/edits (a pen-as-sword Knight)
– a Master Archivist/Librarian/Bookbinder that keeps his world’s story in tune with the Universal Story.
– or going back to the Pinocchio thing, He is Emma’s Jiminy “let your conscience be your guide” Cricket, as, he never lies.And I still believe there is a cosmic lesson yet to come about the importance of all stories and why we must pass the stories and art of storytelling on to generations to come. The Universe depends on it and…and… yeah, “all that stuff.” Well, you know the story.
Thanks for the input!
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