Baelfire

[Myril]

Thanks, TheGoldenKey,hope you had great holidays too, and wish you a good start of the New Year. All the best.

It is rather easy to have some knowledge about German literature when one grew up in Germany and had luckily some good teachers 😉 Besides that I have been interested in fantasy (and science fiction) literature, movies, TV shows for a while now, so aquired a bit of knowledge over time. I hope Once Upon a Time will give us a lot more to discover and talk about, looking forward to more chats.

Looks like we have a different understanding of folklore, wouldn’t call Goethe’s work folklore, not even parts of it, but agree, that some of his motifs made way into folklore, like the image of a sorcerer’s apprentice conjuring powers he can’t control. Well, it’s one of the poems maybe everyone in Germany had and has to analyse at school and eventually learn to recite.

Would call the connection made by some between castle Frankenstein near Darmstadt and Shelley’s novel folklore, but a modern one, at best maybe told the past 70 years. There is no prove of Shelley ever having known about the castle nor about Dipple, it’s all speculation based on some assumptions of two authors (Scheele and Florescu, possible one based his ideas even on the other) – but, okay, there is no way to disprove, that she knew, she did indeed travel the Rhine and came within maybe 20km of the castle. It is an interesting question, why Shelley choose the name Frankenstein, but why should it have to do anything with a real excisting place? In the novel Dr. Frankenstein’s home and lab is not in a castle by the way, that is the invention of later movies. And sorry for more nitpicking, but Ewers didn’t write about a female Frankenstein, his Frankenstein was very male as well, only the “monster” he created was female, whose monstrosity mostly was being very beautyful but amoral (hmmm) and created by in vitro fertilization (edit: without consent, so like in Shelley’s novel can ask, who the real monster is, while Shelley barely called Frankenstein’s creation a monster, it’s a term used by others). If you like, can see parallels in Ewer’s novel to Regina’s story.

@TheGoldenKey wrote:

Kitsis and Horowitz never cease to amaze me. We not only get a wonderful storyline and series, but if we are open and pay attention to all their clues, they take us on an educational journey that money just can’t buy! Love them!

Not sure, if what we see and find are all intentional clues by Kitsis and Horowitz, think we might see more than there is occasionally, but that shouldn’t reduce the fun to discover and dig into it. It’s inspiring, I too am amazed and thankful for what they do with this show.

@playarita wrote:

I know there many far more intelligent and much better at writing then I am. So I was wondering what connections could be made from Neal Cassady to literature, movies etc. If anything has is a repeat then pardon I meant no disrespect more than anything I would like to know what are the thoughts etc.

I found this. It seemed the life seemed correlate greatly with the character. However I am sorry to say I have not read these particular works but I am going to attempt to. I was wondering if there might be any indication to who Neal might be.

Thank you.

Don’t be too impressed, has nothing to do with intelligence, it’s just a bit more knowledge aquired and maybe writing practice. :ugeek:

There has been some talking about a possible reference to Neal Cassady before. But don’t worry, think that discussion isn’t all finished, so okay to bring it up again. In my opinion might be though not much of a story there, just a nod to a cultural icon. Kitsis and Horowitz said, that the Rolling Stones inspired them to the title of episode 2×07 (Child of the Moon) as much as it inspired some of the set design on that very episode (producers podcast). Rolling Stones -> beat generation <- Neal Cassady. Just saying. Probably would be very interesting to learn, what other music and bands Kitsis and Horowitz like to hear (know of Led Zeppelin besides Rolling Stones), what movies, shows, books had influence on them. ;) @Faux Pax wrote:

What I see neither is Bae having magic like Emma – how so? Doubt he was a child of true love.

But what about Henry? If Neal is Bae and if he is Emma’s true love, then couldn’t that mean he has his own kind of magic? And if we consider the fact that Emma is the end of the curse, but Bae was the beginning, then it could have interesting implications for just what kind of magic he has.

Well, let us concentrate on Bae here, maybe? I can follow you with the thought, that Bae is at the beginning of the curse and Emma at the end, with or without magic, and could be an interesting kind of meta-story one way or the other if Bae is Neal and thus Henry’s father, but that still doesn’t make me think of Bae having magic – and that is what I am talking about, no if Henry has or Emma.

There were no signs before, that Bae had magic, he only used magic once attempting to get his father back – and the means were given to him by the Blue Fairy. Alright, we haven’t seen much of Bae to be any sure about it, but that would be a more cynical twist in my opinion to let Bae himself have magic. His parents, Rumple and Milah hadn’t a true love romance as far as we know (maybe they thought so at first, but seeing where their relationship went hardly can call it true love),so what should have made Bae have magic?

[gypsy]

Neal Cassady was in Ken Keasey’s movie/documentary “Magic Trip” along with the Grateful Dead.
They drove a bus, named ‘Further’ from San Fransisco to NY.
The Dead wrote a song about that trip, specifically about Neal – “That’s it for the Other One”
Line in the song: “Cowboy Neal at the wheel on the Bus to Never Never Land.”
One of the many reasons I believe Neal is not only Bae, but, Peter Pan as well.
The Dead also wrote another song about Neal – “Cassidy” – yes, it’s spelled different….which I think is another clue pointing to these connections….’Cassady’ was spelled with an ‘a’ in the press release and in the synopsis, yet, it was spelled with an ‘i’ (Cassidy) on the wanted poster.
I added these and some other connections concerning ‘Neal Cassady’ (at her request) to TheGoldenKey’s theory about Neal/Bae/Peter Pan.
Her theory was posted on here a few months ago, but, she’s had the theory since last February.
It’s a really good theory…..convinced me 🙂
Plus, K&H (especially H) are die hard Grateful Dead fans….patterned the fictitious band “Geronimo Jackson” from LOST after them.
Neal has a Geronimo Jackson ‘Dharma Lady’ sitcker on the back of this phone, or ipod, whatever as well as a sticker on the back of the VDub and Henry had the CD in his pack

[mujie]

There is still another land without magic Baelfire could’ve gone to. (Unless black and white counts as magic.) Actually, if it was Frankenstein’s land, it could make sense. No magic, but still pretty similar to the Enchanted Forest…

[RumplesGirl]

Our conversation on Henry seems to be wrapping up so figured it was time to move on to the next central character: Nealfire.

Before we get into this, I want to stress one thing: let’s not make this a shipping debate. This isn’t going to be a justification for either CaptainSwan OR SwanFire. You can, of course, talk about Neal’s character relationship with Emma, Henry, Rumple, Hook, ect but let’s try not to make this into a shipping war. The point of the summer character conversations were to move out of the shipping threads and talk to more people! 🙂

So to start us off: what are some questions you wish had been answered about Neal? If Neal had lived this season, what would have been next for him in S4? What is Nealfire’s greatest flaw/strength?

 

"He was a lot of things to me" "The only conclusion was love"

[TheWatcher]

If Neal had lived we could have seen he and Belle grow closer as family, we could have seen him trying to mend his relationship with his father (as well as his reaction to the finding out his papa lied about killing the witch). He would have tried to be a better father to Henry than what his dad was to him. He and Emma would have had some kind of relationship even if it wasn’t romantic and would have made a kickbutt team if I say so myself. Neal would have even bonded with Killian who is indeed his step-papa. Neal had so much potential.
I have to say, Neal was a strong person. He never gave up. Some would say him leaving Emma was an act of betrayal but it was a great thing, he gave up the woman he loved so that she could fulfill a destiny that was greater than either of them. There are some people on the world who would never do that. He escaped Pan, and found his way back to Neverlamd so that he could do it again, and he also resurrected his father, and made it so that Killian could escape the curse. Neal was just plain epic, a hero through and through, and it’s sad he is no longer here v_v

"I could have the giant duck as my steed!" --Daniel Radcliffe
Keeper Of Tamara's Taser , Jafar's Staff, Kitsis’s Glasses , Ariel’s Tail, Dopey's Hat , Peter Pan’s Shadow, Outfit, & Pied Cloak,Red Queen's Castle, White Rabbit's Power To World Hop, Zelena's BroomStick, & ALL MAGIC

[Jenna_B]

Nealfire!  I was hoping we’d touch on him, but being that he can be perceived as one of the more…controversial?…characters I figured I’d wait can let our keymaster decide if we went there…. 🙂

 

There are SO MANY things I still wanted to know about Neal.  I think A&E did a pretty good job about fleshing out his life when we was Bae – we got a clear understanding of how he and Rumple were separated, how his mother’s leaving him affected his life with Rumple…but for the most part, his life as Neal is a big ol’ void.  Where did he go when he first got here from NL?  Why did he choose the name Neal?  (I always figured there might be a story there…I figured he ‘landed’ in the US and although it’s a recognizable name, you’d think he would’ve gone for something extremely popular the time like ‘John’ or ‘Michael’ to blend easier…wait!  John or Michael!  Ok maybe Tom)  When did he decide to ‘go straight’?  Immediately after Emma was sentenced or did it take a long time?  What happened that led up to meeting with August?  (Whatever you think about the decisions he made, to me I just feel there had to be some kind of motivation…as a child he found a way through a portal and spent 300 years in NL…he was resourceful – so what led him to agreeing with Pinocchio or just saying ‘forget you’ and taking Emma and going?)  The only real headcannon I ever formed is my thoughts regarding Hook and Bae’s relationship (it’s ridiculously specific) so it would’ve been interesting for me to see more of it and what CaptainFire would be like.

 

I think if they hadn’t made the crap decision that killing Neal was “bold” and “essential to the storyline,” then I think Neal, Emma and Regina would’ve figured out a way to co-parent Henry.  I think Neal and Henry could’ve formed an extremely close bond.  I think an excellent storyline would’ve been seeing how Neal and Rumple repair their relationship, and the similarities/differences between theirs and Henry/Neal’s.  And if the writers insist everyone be related to everyone, then I would’ve liked to see Neal’s side of the story become close and be drawn more ‘into the fold’.

[RumplesGirl]

Nealfire! I was hoping we’d touch on him, but being that he can be perceived as one of the more…controversial?…characters I figured I’d wait can let our keymaster decide if we went there….

Oh trust me. There was a rather intricate plan in place to ensure we’d never get to Neal or Hook. 😉  But in the end, I understand the need to talk about these two.

Would you believe I’ve typed out three responses and deleted them all? I don’t know what to write here.

Neal’s greatest flaw was also his greatest strength: he was human. He wasn’t an archetype–Knight, Queen, Princess, Savior…he was a guy who represented the human side to fairy tales. He was flawed and imperfect but in a human way; his crimes weren’t magical or mythic, they were simple and ordinary. He hurt someone who loved him and was scared to do it again. He was pushed around in life from one bad situation to the next–abused, abandoned, hungry, poor, he felt unwanted and unloved… but he never let it destroy his good heart. He never murdered or maimed or took the violent way out. He still believed in family and home. When he learned he had a son, he didn’t balk or shirk from his duties–he embraced them, and Henry. He sacrificed his own desires and wants time and time again–be it for the Darlings, for Emma, for Henry, for his Father. He was literally a self-sacrificing hero until his last breath. And they still killed him.

For me, the single biggest mistake of ONCE will always be that they killed Nealfire. I’ll accept their plot devices, their weak character arcs, their cliche and repetitive villains. But the senseless killing of Neal Cassidy did not further the plot of S3B, it did not provide any sort of lesson or drive for the characters (they all pretty much forgot about him); his death was poorly handled/written and contrived.

I’ll use Jenna’s list of questions instead of formulating my own. I want those answers too.

Neal’s happy ending didn’t need to involve romance. It could have just been being with his family. That was his arc–the lost boy who’s family kept being ripped away because of fate, destiny, the choices we make no matter how hard they are. He lost his mother, he lost his father, he lost his adopted Darling family, he lost his step father, he lost the woman he considered to be his true love, he lost his son in 3×11, and then…he lost everything. His happy ending would have just been a family dinner twice a week with Belle and Rumple and Henry. That simple feeling of belonging. Of being wanted.

 

"He was a lot of things to me" "The only conclusion was love"

[WickedRegal]

Jenna_B wrote:

Nealfire! I was hoping we’d touch on him, but being that he can be perceived as one of the more…controversial?…characters I figured I’d wait can let our keymaster decide if we went there….

Oh trust me. There was a rather intricate plan in place to ensure we’d never get to Neal or Hook. 😉 But in the end, I understand the need to talk about these two. Would you believe I’ve typed out three responses and deleted them all? I don’t know what to write here. Neal’s greatest flaw was also his greatest strength: he was human. He wasn’t an archetype–Knight, Queen, Princess, Savior…he was a guy who represented the human side to fairy tales. 

Exactly! That was my favorite thing about Neal, that even though he had been in the EF, or NL…he’s one of the most realistic characters on the show. My personal opinion is that Neal brought the “real world” sense to SB, as opposed to all magic, and sword swinging heroes….he was real.

It’s sad that we lost our most realistic characters, as now I feel there’s no normal person in SB. I mean Emma was our real person back in S1, but lately, she’s seemed more fairy tale to me now…but I think what we need in S4 is someone whose not from SB, who just somehow found their way there, and hopefully not evil. I would love to see that “shocked and I think I’m going crazy” look on someone’s face when they realize they’ve landed in a fairy tale town.

But Neal…his role could have been to be a father to Henry. What I would give for Neal to have taken Henry to a baseball game, or for Neal to build Henry a tree house. He deserved the chance to be a father to his son, and that’s where it all boils down to for me. Romance with Emma would have been a nice bonus, but at the end of the day, he should’ve gotten his shot to be a dad, and he would have been the most amazing dad. And then Neal and Regina had so much in common, and we didn’t even get one conversation between the two of them. Like Regina could have told Neal about Henry’s childhood, and they probably could have developed the best buddy & brother/sister relationship considering they were almost siblings, and I think he really respected her as being Henry’s mother. Neal educating Rumple and Belle on sports, and they’re spending time with Henry watching football games….c’mon! And I was all for #FrozenFire too! That should have been our Season 4!

"If you go as far as you can see...you will then see enough to go even further." - Finn Balor

[TheWatcher]

I agree with everything said *gives RG and WR great big lollipops* I see no reason for Neal to have died. What are those bold storytelling reasons they say he died for? Was it simply the shock factor? Unless S4’s plot is greatly motivated by Neals death (like maybe he and Elsa had a thing and them she goes berserk when she finds out he is dead and freezes SB) then I doubt there is or was ever a bold storytelling reason behind his death

"I could have the giant duck as my steed!" --Daniel Radcliffe
Keeper Of Tamara's Taser , Jafar's Staff, Kitsis’s Glasses , Ariel’s Tail, Dopey's Hat , Peter Pan’s Shadow, Outfit, & Pied Cloak,Red Queen's Castle, White Rabbit's Power To World Hop, Zelena's BroomStick, & ALL MAGIC

[RumplesGirl]

Things I wish we saw

–Neal and Regina having a conversation about Young Henry

–Neal and Snowing having a conversation about teenage Emma (he’s the only one who knew her)

–Neal and Belle and Rumple having dinner

–Neal teaching Henry how to throw a football or something equally sporty and father/son like

–Neal and Regina and Emma talking about the best way to raise Henry and how to split the time equally

–Robin and Neal having a beer

 

"He was a lot of things to me" "The only conclusion was love"

[Author]

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