Baelfire

[Jenna_B]

I also agree he brought a nice sense of ‘normalcy’ to the show.  He was your ‘Everyman’ and a show like OUAT needs an ‘Everyman’ to keep it grounded.  As said, Emma is pretty much fully engrained into the ‘fairy tale,’ as shown by becoming part of the book in the finale.

 

The ONLY (and I say only loosely because I still think it’s crap) reason I see for removing Neal from the situation is because that ‘everyman’ and piece that ties the entire family together originally was Henry — Neal just did it better.  Goodness knows, you can’t have 2 characters with that role, especially if they’re father & son!  (Yes, that is sarcasm.)

 

One of the things I really love about OUAT is their perspective that it doesn’t take biology to make people a family – it’s the love you have for each other that’s important.  Emma/Neal/Henry are an excellent way to show that whether together romantically or not, two people that were together and have a child can still be parents to that child AND are still family, whether the couple is together romantically or not.  Add adoptive mom Regina in, and show them all effectively parenting Henry and you’ve got an amazing example of how families work, whether they fit the traditional mold or not.

[RumplesGirl]

One of the things I really love about OUAT is their perspective that it doesn’t take biology to make people a family – it’s the love you have for each other that’s important

After Lana’s comments in Paris, I don’t know if OUAT actually believes this. If she really had to fight for Regina/Henry’s relationship…that makes me nervous

Emma/Neal/Henry are an excellent way to show that whether together romantically or not, two people that were together and have a child can still be parents to that child AND are still family, whether the couple is together romantically or not. Add adoptive mom Regina in, and show them all effectively parenting Henry and you’ve got an amazing example of how families work, whether they fit the traditional mold or not.

For a show that wants to show you “the real story” having a modern family of separated mom/dad/step dad/ adopted mom is a great way to go. Sadly, they’ve killed dad

"He was a lot of things to me" "The only conclusion was love"

[WickedRegal]

I agree with everything said *gives RG and WR great big lollipops*  (like maybe he and Elsa had a thing and them she goes berserk when she finds out he is dead and freezes SB)

@TheWatcher…don’t tease me like that!!! You know how badly I shipped #FrozenFire, and if it comes out that Neal and Elsa once had a thing, and Elsa looses it over him….I would probably hurl the tv out the window!

Things I wish we saw –Neal and Regina having a conversation about Young Henry –Neal and Snowing having a conversation about teenage Emma (he’s the only one who knew her) –Neal and Belle and Rumple having dinner –Neal teaching Henry how to throw a football or something equally sporty and father/son like –Neal and Regina and Emma talking about the best way to raise Henry and how to split the time equally –Robin and Neal having a beer

Again….why aren’t all of us the writers for this show?? 🙂

"If you go as far as you can see...you will then see enough to go even further." - Finn Balor

[WickedRegal]

Jenna_B wrote:

One of the things I really love about OUAT is their perspective that it doesn’t take biology to make people a family – it’s the love you have for each other that’s important

After Lana’s comments in Paris, I don’t know if OUAT actually believes this. If she really had to fight for Regina/Henry’s relationship…that makes me nervous

Jenna_B wrote:

Emma/Neal/Henry are an excellent way to show that whether together romantically or not, two people that were together and have a child can still be parents to that child AND are still family, whether the couple is together romantically or not. Add adoptive mom Regina in, and show them all effectively parenting Henry and you’ve got an amazing example of how families work, whether they fit the traditional mold or not.

For a show that wants to show you “the real story” having a modern family of separated mom/dad/step dad/ adopted mom is a great way to go. Sadly, they’ve killed dad

OUAT doesn’t believe in that type of familial love…here’s the Lana interview.

I’m so worried for Rumple Dumple!!! They’re gonna try to cut him out of the tree, and Henry will probably be unfazed by Neal’s death….please don’t let this happen, as that would be a slap in the face which would cause for war on Adam and Eddy’s heads.

 

"If you go as far as you can see...you will then see enough to go even further." - Finn Balor

[RumplesGirl]

Branching out into some more controversial areas involving Neal (feel free to pick and choose here)

1) Were there other options for Neal besides leaving Emma in “Tallahassee” (if we accept that the curse MUST be broke)

2) Do you think Neal ever tried to look for Emma?

3) Was little Bae right to ask his father to give up magic?

4) Does Neal owe Rumple unconditional love and acceptance (a la Belle?)

5) Most characters in lit and TV have a ἁμαρτία (harmatia) or fatal flaw (for example, Rumple’s might be his pride) What is Neal’s fatal flaw?

"He was a lot of things to me" "The only conclusion was love"

[TheWatcher]

1) Were there other options for Neal besides leaving Emma in “Tallahassee” (if we accept that the curse MUST be broke

Welll, I say no. Emma only went to SB after Henry brought her there. If Neal stayed, he and Emma raise Henry themselves, they have no reason to go to SB…. Unless August manages to convince her to believe in magic and that her parents were there (which Henry didn’t have to do, he got her to SB simply because she wanted to take him back to his adoptive mother) so I don’t think Emma would have much reason to go to SB especially if she is listening to a guy who is spouting the whole “I’m a wooden man” thing.

2) Do you think Neal ever tried to look for Emma?

I got the impression he was waiting on word from August that it was safe…and then he just…. Moved on with Tamara? I think he thought if Emma EVERY day, wondering where she is, if she’s okay, waiting to go to her…. Then things may have changed for him and he took pause… Nothing wrong with that though.

) Was little Bae right to ask his father to give up magic?

Yes to a certain degree. When Rump started using magic to harm others, Bae was right to tell him to cut the crap! Was Rump wrong for using magic in general? No. Was Rump wrong for making magical deals with people? No. Was rump wrong for turning people into snails and stepping on them. Yes. Should Bae prevent his papa from continuing into that darkness? Yep. BAe did the right thing, he was trying to help. Just didn’t work out.

4) Does Neal owe Rumple unconditional love and acceptance (a la Belle?)

I think this may be an unpopular opinion… But yes…maybe? No one can say Rump didn’t love his boy. It was apparent from when he first saw little baby Bae. Rump made mistakes. But he did everything he could to find his boy even if it meant the destruction of one land for the next. Neal doesn’t have to approve of his fathers actions. But he has to acknowledge that his fathers love for him is pure. And he should return that despite his dissapproval. *this is the part where Watcher types out a long winded post about her father and how much this situation reminds her of him and how she forgave him and loves him through all his many mistakes but then she deletes it because of stuff T_T*

 

 

"I could have the giant duck as my steed!" --Daniel Radcliffe
Keeper Of Tamara's Taser , Jafar's Staff, Kitsis’s Glasses , Ariel’s Tail, Dopey's Hat , Peter Pan’s Shadow, Outfit, & Pied Cloak,Red Queen's Castle, White Rabbit's Power To World Hop, Zelena's BroomStick, & ALL MAGIC

[Jenna_B]

Here we go, RG, asking the hard questions!

1) Were there other options for Neal besides leaving Emma in “Tallahassee” (if we accept that the curse MUST be broke)
This is one of the things I struggle with the most.  Ultimately…yes, I think that Neal had other options.  I think the idea of going back and dealing with Rumple may have scared him.  I do believe that Neal had absolutely no idea who Emma was until he was told by August, and I think the idea of going back to the life he finally got away from could have been an extremely scary thing for Neal…but I do think the decision he let August talk him into making was the wrong decision.  If he stayed, he had 11 years to figure out how to get Emma to SB.  I don’t really feel the writers adequately explained why Neal had to allow for Emma to go to jail (let’s be honest, he knew based on his conversation with August and was told Emma got 11 months,) why Emma couldn’t break the curse with TLK – whether she raised Henry or not, or was with Neal or not, in theory she should’ve still been able to break the curse with TLK.  I understand there may have also been an element of Emma having to believe Henry in order for the curse to break as well, but I do believe if you truly love someone you figure out a way.

2) Do you think Neal ever tried to look for Emma?
Yeah….I don’t think he did.  Maybe the genuinely felt that was the right thing to do.  Maybe he felt that he needed to move on, and he needed to let Emma move on too.  But no, I don’t think he tried to find her.  Emma was in Tallahassee for 2 years after prison; I imagine making it fairly easy for Neal to find her if he so chose…and he didn’t.

3) Was little Bae right to ask his father to give up magic?
Yes.  I agree with Watcher on this one.  Magic wasn’t necessarily a problem but Rumple gave in to the Dark Side of it – and that’s what the problem was.  Had Rumple not killed the DO and taken on the persona, or somehow fought the dark aspect of his powers, the magic wouldn’t have been a problem, but the darkness destroyed his relationship with his son.  I think Bae would have far preferred a father who was considered a ‘coward’ than the evil that came with becoming the DO.  And I do think they made it very clear – the reason Bae wanted Rumple to give up magic was to salvage their relationship, to have his father back.
4) Does Neal owe Rumple unconditional love and acceptance (a la Belle?)
No.  Just because someone is a biological parent, doesn’t mean they deserve unconditional love from that child.  Rumple (and Milah) caused the pain and struggles Nealfire had to go through – and I think everyone would agree, he went through a lot.  I think the fact that Neal forgave Rumple by the end of 3A was pretty telling – Neal has a huge capacity to love and forgive.  Yes, Rumple may have realized pretty immediately that he screwed up by letting Bae fall through the portal, but he still SCREWED UP.  I don’t really care that he tried to find him again for 300 years.  Had it not been Rumple’s poor decisions, Neal never would’ve had to deal with everything he had to deal with.

 

5) Most characters in lit and TV have a ἁμαρτία (harmatia) or fatal flaw (for example, Rumple’s might be his pride) What is Neal’s fatal flaw?
This is a tough one!  I think his fatal flaw is that he can be a little impetuous, and can maybe believe in others a little too easily.  To me, August’s “you have to let Emma go to jail” speech wasn’t particularly convincing.  But Neal did believe that August was right and made that decision incredibly quickly.  When they returned to the EF after 3A, I get his motivation for his actions, but I do feel his desire to achieve the end result clouded his thinking when he decided to do things like reopen the vault.  Even blind-when-it-comes-to-Rumple Belle gave pause.  But Neal was all in.

[RumplesGirl]

1) Were there other options for Neal besides leaving Emma in “Tallahassee” (if we accept that the curse MUST be broke)

While Jenna brings up a good point (if anyone could convince Emma about magic, it would be Nealfire) but this is the question: what is the story then? If all it took was Neal taking Emma into this magical town and saying, “hey, give our son a kiss” then…from a TV narrative perspective, what’s the story? S1, long before we ever knew about Nealfire or their relationship, the show was about a son who found his biological mother and convinced her to “come home.” And the journey of S1 for Emma was watching her slowly fall in love with her little boy against all odds. So, had Neal stayed, what’s the moral, the impetus, the drive, the character arc for Emma? One of the flaws of the show is that writers left a lot out. We never got to see the rest of the conversation between August and Neal–what did August tell him? Did Neal fight him when August tried to call the cops (almost 100% sure it was August at this point since it wasn’t THO behind it all as we thought going into S3). Without Neal leaving, quite honestly, we wouldn’t have a show. S1 was mostly shipping free for Emma because it was all about her and Henry. Since then, that glorious heart wrenching moment of Emma kissing Henry back to life has gotten tangled up in Neal leaving her and “well they could have been together and broken the curse with a kiss without jail.”

 

Was Neal scared of seeing Rumple again?  Of course! The last he knew of his father, his papa chose darkness over him. I wouldn’t want to see him either. But, like he does, Neal gave up his happy ending with Emma to get her home. And…he did it. He succeeded. She eventually got to SB by way of Henry in S1. And then in S3B she remember his words about home and POOF. Magic portal to home! He taught her what home was, and it was a hard lesson and in the end he paid for it.

2) Do you think Neal ever tried to look for Emma?

I’m on the outs here cause I say yes. I think he did. But I also think he stopped because he knew that he couldn’t leave her again, but that she still had a destiny to fulfill.

3) Was little Bae right to ask his father to give up magic?

Yes. Magic and darkness changes people. Like he said, “you’re different now. You hurt people all the time.” Bae’s good heart couldn’t stand to his father hurting others. The path Bae took to get them out of the EF was a courageous one. It meant giving up his friends, his home, going someplace where they might be shunned and hated. But he did it for his papa. Brave little boy.

4) Does Neal owe Rumple unconditional love and acceptance (a la Belle?)

Absolutely not. Children do NOT owe their parents unconditional love. If a child is neglected, abused, hated, mistreated, then they have every right to not love their parent. Parents are supposed to unconditionally love. Neal has several very legit reasons for not accepting the darkness in Rumple–it ruined Neal’s whole life.

5) Most characters in lit and TV have a ἁμαρτία (harmatia) or fatal flaw (for example, Rumple’s might be his pride) What is Neal’s fatal flaw?

I think, in the end, Neal is a bit like his papa: fear. Mulan says it best, “Your belief in love wasn’t strong enough to overcome your fear of rejection.” Time and time again, Nealfire has learned that love only leads to being broken and abandoned: his mother, his father, he lost the Darlings, he lost Emma….love brings you nothing but pain and that scared him. But the important part is that he learned. He got some sage advice and he decided to try and accept love, be it from Rumple (you’re different papa….) to Henry (you’ll always have a father speech in 309 even if it was to Panry *rage*) to, yes, Emma (I’m never going to stop fighting for you).

"He was a lot of things to me" "The only conclusion was love"

[MatthewPaul]

Branching out into some more controversial areas involving Neal (feel free to pick and choose here) 1) Were there other options for Neal besides leaving Emma in “Tallahassee” (if we accept that the curse MUST be broke) 2) Do you think Neal ever tried to look for Emma? 3) Was little Bae right to ask his father to give up magic? 4) Does Neal owe Rumple unconditional love and acceptance (a la Belle?) 5) Most characters in lit and TV have a ἁμαρτία (harmatia) or fatal flaw (for example, Rumple’s might be his pride) What is Neal’s fatal flaw?

1) The biggest wrench is that he didn’t look for her after he got the postcard, and instead had already started dating Tamara. I feel like if he had actually done what he originally told August by looking for her when the curse broke, his previous actions would have been more so forgiven. I do think the whole jail thing could have been handled in a different way than what actually happened, too. About the Henry factor, Neal didn’t even know he was going to be born nor did he and August predict that Henry would coincidentally be adopted by Regina. If the jail thing happened, but Emma didn’t give up Henry or Henry was never born, would Emma have still made it to Storybrooke? So while August’s plan somewhat worked out, the Henry factor wasn’t accounted for. Of course, if we want to be completely honest, Adam and Eddy could have invented another way if they had wanted to.

2) Neal’s original intent was to reunite with Emma as soon as the curse broke, going by his scene at the end of Tallahassee with August. No, I don’t think he actually tried to look for her, and he even admitted in 301 that he took the easy way out by not doing anything at all. He thought about it, but never actually acted upon it. This is further cemented in 221, where he specifically tells Emma he “wanted” to look for her, not that he ever actually attempted to do so.  In 218’s flashback, August invited Neal to go with him to Storybrooke, but he didn’t want to because of his father being able to find him. In 321 he also adds that he didn’t go look for her because he didn’t think Emma could ever forgive him. So it’s a combination of being too afraid of both Emma and his father.

3) Just letting Rumple continue to be an abusive magical bully wasn’t the way to go, so yes he did right by asking him to get rid of his powers.

4) No, but that was ultimately up for Neal to decide on his own. It took a long time for him and Rumple to come to an understanding. Knowing that Rumple was also abandoned by his father, but Pan unlike Rumple didn’t regret leaving him, gave Neal a new perspective on the situation. However, if Neal ended up never forgiving him, that was totally in his right.

5) I would say Neal’s biggest flaw is being too head strong. He was so desperate not to repeat his fathers mistakes, but in doing so repeated some of his mistakes. Rumple wanted to cheat fate and not lose Bae, but in doing so lost him anyway. Neal in turn didn’t want Henry to be fatherless like he was, but his rash actions in resurrecting Rumple resulted in Henry losing his father anyway. We also saw some of this head strong behavior in his attempt to save Henry via using a child as bait and letting himself get caught by Pan again after he used squid ink on Rumple.

[RumplesGirl]

About the Henry factor, Neal didn’t even know he was going to be born nor did he and August predict that Henry would coincidentally be adopted by Regina. If the jail thing happened, but Emma didn’t give up Henry or Henry was never born, would Emma have still made it to Storybrooke? So while August’s plan somewhat worked out, the Henry factor wasn’t accounted for.

And this is why we need more August/Neal conversation. We have no idea what August told him or how much information August had. What: “someday she will find her way to SB and you can’t be with her?” The writers need to flesh out what happened there.

And the issue is also that Henry was established in S1 as bringing Emma home. Emma in jail was established in 104, the Price of Gold. So now we’ve got: adopted kid and jail time. They can’t go back on that in S2 so they had to make Neal’s story fit that.

5) I would say Neal’s biggest flaw is being too head strong. He was so desperate not to repeat his fathers mistakes, but in doing so repeated some of his mistakes. Rumple wanted to cheat fate and not lose Bae, but in doing so lost him anyway. Neal in turn didn’t want Henry to be fatherless like he was, but his rash actions in resurrecting Rumple resulted in Henry losing his father anyway. We also saw some of this head strong behavior in his attempt to save Henry via using a child as bait and letting himself get caught by Pan again after he used squid ink on Rumple.

I agree that is his fatal flaw in 315 but I don’t think it extends to his entire character.

Little Roland problem: he had Robin Hood’s permission. And Mulan was there. AND it turns out that this super scary shadow can be locked up in a coconut with a candle. Trembling in my boots over here. What other option did he have? Yes the writers could have had him discover some magical bean in the castle but Oh, dear LORD the complaining we would have done. And that’s the only way to get to NL: bean or shadow express. So while it wasn’t the best option, it was his only option. And if he hadn’t done it, people who don’t like Neal would never have stopped yelling about how he wasn’t willing to fight for his family. When it comes to this fandom, Neal often can’t catch a break (same can be said for many characters, I know, but Neal receives more vitriol than others)

Getting caught by Pan: well that was just bad timing. He was looking for Emma and her camp. And I don’t blame him for freezing Rumple. You learn that your father wanted to kill your son? Yeah, I’d freeze him too. Know what Rumple would have done knowing that someone wanted to kill his boy? Oh wait. We saw that. Episode 108, he becomes the Dark One and then kills a bunch of guys. 🙂 So really, Neal made the better choice by just freezing dear old papa.

So his head strongness of 315 was, IMO, totally OOC

 

"He was a lot of things to me" "The only conclusion was love"

[Author]

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