Baelfire

[RumplesGirl]

I have a general problem with anything being claimed to be destiny or for the greater good or whatever higher purpose and powers.

How does this show not drive you nuts then? So many times, when asked about events, A and E say “fate.”

I understand the point you make about taking away Emma’s decision, making it for her. I’m not a fan of agency removal. And, maybe this is being Neal-apologetic (I do that), but part of it was the way the episode was written and how they never came back to that conversation between Neal and August. Even though they intended to.

This tweet pretty much confirms that there was more to tell but our writers have Shiny Syndrome.

 

I also think they told MRJ that they were going to come back to it in S3. In an interview he did with OUAF (read HERE ) he talks about A and E motivations behind what Neal did

These weren’t nameless, faceless strangers to him—these are people that he knew. And in the past with August back in that alley, there was a lot more to it than what we saw! Adam and Eddy and I had long discussions about what I would have said to August during that time, things like, “I’ll go to jail—let me go to jail for Emma!” But ultimately that’s a false economy, because although that would separate the two, she still wouldn’t accomplish her destiny because she didn’t know about magic. So they said, “You need to break her heart so she can later come around and realize that magic does exist. She can defeat the curse.” If I’d gone to prison, she probably would have just waited for Neal to get out. So there was a lot of jumping on the grenade there for the greater good.

 

[Ranisha Pitts]

Myril wrote:

I have a general problem with anything being claimed to be destiny or for the greater good or whatever higher purpose and powers.

How does this show not drive you nuts then? So many times, when asked about events, A and E say “fate.” I understand the point you make about taking away Emma’s decision, making it for her. I’m not a fan of agency removal. And, maybe this is being Neal-apologetic (I do that), but part of it was the way the episode was written and how they never came back to that conversation between Neal and August. Even though they intended to. This tweet pretty much confirms that there was more to tell but our writers have Shiny Syndrome. I also think they told MRJ that they were going to come back to it in S3. In an interview he did with OUAF (read HERE ) he talks about A and E motivations behind what Neal did

These weren’t nameless, faceless strangers to him—these are people that he knew. And in the past with August back in that alley, there was a lot more to it than what we saw! Adam and Eddy and I had long discussions about what I would have said to August during that time, things like, “I’ll go to jail—let me go to jail for Emma!” But ultimately that’s a false economy, because although that would separate the two, she still wouldn’t accomplish her destiny because she didn’t know about magic. So they said, “You need to break her heart so she can later come around and realize that magic does exist. She can defeat the curse.” If I’d gone to prison, she probably would have just waited for Neal to get out. So there was a lot of jumping on the grenade there for the greater good.

And this is my problem with the whole situation they clearly had other intentions but didn’t have the guts to back that crap up when it came time to it. So in the end Baelfire got screwed out of his happy ending. And a lot of the Nealfire storyline just got scrapped and tossed to the way side. Because MRJ and A&E  made it seemed like they had more plan for this character then what they showed. They started season 2 intro with Nealfire walking down the street, they seek out MRJ to played this character (I think they were swoon by Britt), they had long sessions about this character, they even had a special who is Baelfire.  I believe they had major plans of Nealfire but in the end they couldn’t pull it through.

I also think the love triangle hurt not helped Nealfire and we all know why so no need to go in that.

The Tamara evil fake fiance trope (I think they were trying to repeat the whole David, Abigail, MM triangle)  also didn’t help at all, especially when they drop it. I think Neal helping Emma fight against GOAT would show some transitioning with Neal. Let’s face it OUAT expects be to connect the dots or overlook things or just figure it out; when its beyond some to do that.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I2Sqc-SxYLQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z9KzRHkVP-c

I still think they had other plans for Nealfire  and death wasn’t originally part of the plan.

"I will be kind but I will speak my mind."

[Ranisha Pitts]

I will post a question, maybe somebody will be able to explain, or that or @RG will say, dont bring logic or Plot. The situation that happened on 315 was very diferent from 319. On the last we saw, Neal leaving his father body to send the message, but on 315 that didnt happened, was almost like Neal was the strong identity, and Rumple the weak. How was possible for Neal to walk on SB? is not like he left Rumple body like on 319, what triger him to become him again and absorve Rumple? ok, maybe this will be another plot hole in the middle of the 1000000 that the show has, still that was never explained, in fact, 315 sounded very rush compare to previous and next episodes, was like every scene was something happening to close Neal story to every character.

I was going to try to answer this but the plot hole suck it up.

But I don’t know perhaps the new curse made Nealfire stronger, or perhaps he sense Emma and Henry was in danger and that drove him to want to help them …..

"I will be kind but I will speak my mind."

[Marty McFly]

In the end…Neal died a hero.

A BOSS to the very end!

Bae was the symbol of GOOD in this show. just pure untainted goodness like that of child.. pure light, pure innocence. anything we ever saw him do was just innocent and good, like with the darlings and making that little deal with his father.

he was SUPPOSED to be the purer younger, more innocent mirror image of Snow. it was supposed to counter the Symbol Of Evil that Rumple became when he took the darkone’s powers. it was supposed to *mean* something to the overall theme of this show. (y’know, the symbol-of-all-that-is-evil protecting the-symbol-of-all-that-is-good)

but then in 315, Neal suddenly became a villain and died for nothing and for no one.
what is it that the story demanded here? was Neal/Fire too good? did he need that spot of darkness, like Snow had, to make him “three dimensional”?
were they planning to have him die and then brought back from the past by Rumple, so that Rumple would have a renewed goal? but why make him the villain? he definitely did NOT die a hero. far far from it.

was it some sort of bold storytelling that we are yet to see, or was it just get rid of papa/bae to make room for more kissing time for rumbelle captainswan, snowing etc.?

[Myril]

Bae was the symbol of GOOD in this show. just pure untainted goodness like that of child.. pure light, pure innocence. anything we ever saw him do was just innocent and good, like with the darlings and making that little deal with his father.

he was SUPPOSED to be the purer younger, more innocent mirror image of Snow. it was supposed to counter the Symbol Of Evil that Rumple became when he took the darkone’s powers. it was supposed to *mean* something to the overall theme of this show. (y’know, the symbol-of-all-that-is-evil protecting the-symbol-of-all-that-is-good)

but then in 315, Neal suddenly became a villain and died for nothing and for no one.
what is it that the story demanded here? was Neal/Fire too good? did he need that spot of darkness, like Snow had, to make him “three dimensional”?
were they planning to have him die and then brought back from the past by Rumple, so that Rumple would have a renewed goal? but why make him the villain? he definitely did NOT die a hero. far far from it.

Somehow doubt that it ever was the intention of A&E to make Bae “the symbol of good”. In the Once universe no one is pure good or pure evil, there are many shades in between. At least I don’t see any character so far on the show being purely one or the other. All the more or less good characters did questionable things, while all the more or less bad guys not only are not born evil but as well in between did occasionally acts of some sort of kindness, mostly out of selfish reasons or with some other plans in mind, but still. Why should Bae be any exception?

Complex, strong, interesting characters are never just one or the other, they might be more on one side of the spectrum of good or bad, but they struggle always with the other side – and not in the form of some outer foe but in the form of their own desires, hopes, wishes, fears, emotions, reactions and behavior. Outer foes only deliver the trigger, they bring it out into the open, but the main struggle is inside of the characters. The greatest challenge for us humans are our very own selves. All great art is about that.

In drama the innocent either die early or they lose their innocence. Sometimes both. They are tempted, they fail, they go back on the right way. Classical quest. Otherwise innocent are only plot devices, characters to drive the story of main characters.

And I am curious: What made Neal a villain in episode 315? Because I never saw Neal as villain, not in that episode, not in any other. He did wrong things, he wronged and hurt Emma, betrayed her,
it was in the grey area to use Roland as bait for the shadow, and it was questionable that he went to retrieve the Dark One, trying to find by all means a way to be with his son Henry.

Maybe, if Neal would have taken in the powers of the Dark One like his father did, and then would have done whatever it takes, including destroying and taking lives of other people like his father did, then Neal would have turned into a villain. But that was not what happened, was it?

What Neal did was rash, not thought through, he didn’t stop to find out what the price would be for retrieving the Dark One, but he didn’t care about prices for magic before that much either, he was willing to pay any if he thought it was worth it. It was not that well written maybe, but sure he was not written as villain. It’s not like he sacrificed for example Belle to retrieve the Dark One, he paid with his own life for it. Neal probably didn’t care that unleashing the Dark One again could have dire consequences for many, he didn’t know at that point how much of his father would still be in him, part of him, he had not even the knife as insurance of control, could only speculate it would come with the Dark One. All in all a very dumb move but nothing villainous.

Then Neal insisted that Emma would use her powers to separate him and his father, knowing it would mean finally his death, but he wanted her to do it, assuming his father was more important to stop Zelena and safe his family, Emma and Henry.

Was it for naught? Not from the view of the writers, but I agree, that they didn’t do a good job conveying that. Many are disappointed and some angry with what the writers did here. They didn’t make us walk in the shoes of the characters, which probably would have been better, we knew all the time Zelena was the threat and to us it looked like it should have been simple for the characters to figure that out, no need for Rumple to do tell them. Neither seemed there to be any real purpose for Rumple in the end to defeat Zelena. So what was kinda left is that one act of Neal sending a note and the potion to Hook to let him get Emma to safe her family. The big mistake the writers then though made was to not let Emma do exactly that but let Regina take over in the end (can see reasons why, but still call it the wrong choice).

So it looks to many like Neal’s sacrifice was for nothing. Can understand that. I believe A&E that that was not their intention, but the problem is, many in the audience ended up seeing something different on screen, there is a large gap between intentions and reception if it comes to Neal.

¯\_(?????? ?)_/¯

[RumplesGirl]

Bae was the symbol of GOOD in this show. just pure untainted goodness like that of child.. pure light, pure innocence. anything we ever saw him do was just innocent and good, like with the darlings and making that little deal with his father.

I’m one of Neal’s biggest supporters on this site.I will pretty much defend him with my everything and I know that this isn’t true.

I’m pretty much going to say the same thing I said in the Regina thread a week ago: by whitewashing every action a character has ever done in an effort to make them the pure “good” you are diminishing that character and woefully misunderstanding them. Neal was not the essence of all that was good. He did hurt people, maybe “for the greater good” (if you like that idea) but it doesn’t change the fact that he hurt people. There is pure innocence, pure light on this show. Not even Snow White (who is supposed to be pure light and innocence) is that good.

"He was a lot of things to me" "The only conclusion was love"

[Marty McFly]

Do you even know what the word “symbolize” means? The concept of symbolism? I never said he IS pure good, he symbolizes pure good. His father is not pure evil either, but he sure *symbolizes* evil.
Like the United States is the symbol of freedom, but are we really more free than other countries? (what with the patriot act, and income taxes etc.) still, we symbolize freedom just like Snow symbolizes purity and so does Bae. He symbolizes goodness and innocence. Well, symbolizED. He became evil in the end, but yeah…

[RumplesGirl]

Do you even know what the word “symbolize” means? The concept of symbolism? I never said he IS pure good, he symbolizes pure good. His father is not pure evil either, but he sure *symbolizes* evil. Like the United States is the symbol of freedom, but are we really more free than other countries? (what with the patriot act, and income taxes etc.) still, we symbolize freedom just like Snow symbolizes purity and so does Bae. He symbolizes goodness and innocence. Well, symbolizED. He became evil in the end, but yeah…

Except he doesn’t symbolize pure good because 1) what an utterly vague concept that many people interpret in many different ways and 2) nobody on this show symbolizes pure good and pure evil. No one. That’s not how the writers create characters. Rumple doesn’t symbolize pure evil. He’s not a stand in for the concept of evil. He’s not some archetype that is held up as EVIL.

And he did not become evil in the end. He became a desperate soul. And while I think it’s shoddy writing, he wasn’t a villain nor evil. that’s not how ONCE works.

"He was a lot of things to me" "The only conclusion was love"

[Marty McFly]

k am I allowed to be critical of the show on this thread?

The story of the father who let go of his son’s hand over the portal -after sacrificing so much for him- is the most compelling, heart wrenching story in all of TV. The story of a son who was raised by his coward father who one day became a monster and eventually abandoned him has the most potential for STORY instead of just face-time for actors on screen.

All of this tension all of this back and forth, can he trust him, will he run from him, will he betray him, will he ever know, can he ever apologize enough, will he ever come to the realization? Do they even know each other at all? Also, this whole saga of if (when) the relationship is amended, how it will effect either of their lives.

It became even MORE interesting and juicy when they added the peter-pan-being-the-grandfather revelation. Will Bae understand why his father never told him the truth no matter how much it cost their relationship? Will he ever know the magnitude of Pan’s betrayal of his father, the horrificness of it, the fact that in this abandonment story it was not the father holding onto the son’s hand but the little helpless traumatized son holding desperately to his father’s sleeve. This story didn’t have the father letting go of the son’s hand but the father violently pulling his hand away from his son’s pitiful grasp.

Will Bae ever know? Will he ever know where the name peter pan came from? Will he ever know that it was his baby blanket that kept his father safe in the land without magic? Will he ever know how his father reacted when he thought August was him? How Henry helped August trick Rumple? How Rumple gave Henry that protection from the burning room nightmare? How his father wrote Emma’s name over and over again so that he would remember when she comes to SB? Will Bae ever know that Emma arrested his father and put him in jail for beating someone up? Will he ever know how Regina managed to adopt his son? Will he ever know about his father’s disastrous relationship with Cora and how much he cares for Regina?

I mean OMG! can we make a list of all the potential STORY we could have had if Neal was still around to tell it?

[Marty McFly]

Then Neal insisted that Emma would use her powers to separate him and his father, knowing it would mean finally his death, but he wanted her to do it, assuming his father was more important to stop Zelena and safe his family, Emma and Henry.

Neal AND Emma expected Gold to have a loophole. they “knew” that separating him from Gold would mean death, BUT they also *expected* that the source of all magical solutions would provide one here too.

Obviously.

oh,and of course he died for “naught” who was saved because of him? not even his father.

[Author]

Posts