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I am well aware of definitions of symbol in literature, fiction: an object, thing, place, sometimes an event or even a person representing something more or something other than itself, an abstract idea or concept.
But I don’t agree or see Bae/Neal representing something more or other than himself and I highly doubt he was even meant to do that. None of the characters represents one or the other, good or evil, they are struggling with the spectrum of good and evil inside their personalities. I don’t know if the writers believe in the concepts of pure good or pure evil or not, but they certainly have created a fictional universe with shades and ambiguity, turning rather simple and somewhat symbolic figures from fairy tales and other sorts of fiction into complex, ambiguous characters with individuals stories and personalities. That is one of the charms of OUaT, or was, or still is in a way. Would say eventually they de-symbolize iconic and symbolic figures of fiction.
Besides that I disagree with you, I don’t see that Bae became evil in the end.
Neal AND Emma expected Gold to have a loophole. they “knew” that separating him from Gold would mean death, BUT they also *expected* that the source of all magical solutions would provide one here too.
Expected? Maybe they hoped for something, but I didn’t understood their questions at Rumple as expectations. But unless they were some naive dimwits they were seeing the possibility that Rumple might not have a solution. If turned evil Neal would have tried to stay regardless what costs, made a deal with Zelena (she tempted Rumple with going back in time to undo things, didn’t she) and not ask Emma to separate him and his father unless they’d have found a way to both stay alive. He would not have risked to finally lose his life.
oh,and of course he died for “naught” who was saved because of him? not even his father.
Many might agree with you, I don’t. We, the audience knew all the time who Zelena was, though we were somewhat in the dark of what she was up to. The characters had lost their memories of the year in the EF, they didn’t remember who Zelena was, to them she was a person they just met, one of some peasants who the first time had stayed behind in the EF (like Robin did as well). There might have been some signs that particular Snow should have been a tad less trustful with her, and Emma’s bond-person senses and experiences should have tinkled, but they couldn’t know that Zelena was the one with the big bad plan. We might think, that it should have been easy for the characters to figure things out, but we weren’t exactly seeing things through their eyes, we were knowing more than they did. Even if they maybe could have figured out a little earlier (flying monkeys!) that the Wicked Witch was involved, they still wouldn’t have known that Zelena was her – that was the information Rumple was able to give them. Tiny plothole why Rumple could remember but not Neal, but whatever, someone had to give them the information. And possible Neal saved only Regina’s life, because Zelena could have cast the Dark Curse as well, nearly everything could have played out the same way, but as well Emma might never haven been born nor Henry. Who can tell what Zelena would have done and caused if she had fully succeeded with her plan?
While Neal was still a part of Rumple it seemed like he was disturbing Zelena’s control over the Dark One, and afterwards Rumple filled with the thought of revenge quite sure fought as much as he could what Zelena forced him to do. Think that delayed Zelana somewhat, precious time for the rest to try to find a way to regain their memories and get an idea, what to do.
Did Neal safe his father? Probably not his soul, but for the time being his life. Belle probably is thankful at the moment for Rumple being alive.
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I don’t know if the writers believe in the concepts of pure good or pure evil or not, but they certainly have created a fictional universe with shades and ambiguity, turning rather simple and somewhat symbolic figures from fairy tales and other sorts of fiction into complex, ambiguous characters with individuals stories and personalities.
Based on interviews they’ve done…they don’t.
"He was a lot of things to me" "The only conclusion was love"They are all both good and bad; it’s one of the bigger points they’re trying to convey (hence Snow, possibly one of the most ‘good’ characters, killing Cora storyline and Red is the Wolf characterization). So yes, even though Neal probably leans more toaward the side of good, he hasn’t always been an angel – far from it. I don’t feel the writers ever intended for his character to ‘symbolize’ good; rather he provided Rumple’s motivation for pretty much all of his actions, regardless of whether Neal was ‘good’ or ‘bad’.
The writers almost made Neal too complex a character to serve their needs or intent. If he were purely Rumple’s motivation, he didn’t need to be so fleshed out. But by creating a character that also has their own motivations – Emma and Henry – that storyline became just as important to viewers. And his death, which may have actually been more powerful (to Rumple/Rumple’s story) had Neal been less defined, came across as being far less ‘bold’ and ‘necessary’ because they did make him a more complex, and therefore more endearing to the audience.
Ooooh want to post something now but on phone must do it later.
"I will be kind but I will speak my mind."
Here’s a question: How really alike were Baelfire/Neal and Rumple in terms of personality? Did their conflicts come about because of how similar they were rather than their differences?
All magic comes with a price!
Keeper of Felix@Jenna_B had wonderful thought thing to respond to you and lost it in Zumba class. LOL So I’ll try my best.
Anyway if he we just suppose to motivation for characters, like Emma, Rumple, Henry, and in someway Hook, I think the death of Nealfire would had suffice at the season finale 2. Judging by the reactions of the characters, it made sense, he motivated the characters and pull their story forward. Rumple still be edgy yet still saved his grandson by choosing Him over power, Emma could put the past behind her and not face her feelings (or face them), Hook could honor Bae’s memory by saving Henry (and this time not just allowed Pan to keep the child), and Henry gets to learn about his father and his paternal history.
Its one of the reason why I think Neal’s second death was really that plan or something they always wanted to do. If you wrote a character with the intentions to die, you let them stay dead. You don’t bring them back, set them up on a second chance redemption arch then killed them off in a “haha we was just fooling with you of course you don’t get a second chance, silly Neal, now be good lad and die.”
I also think you would utilized them a lot more for the most part of 3B Neal was barely used and then by the 4th episode he was dead?
Neal death didn’t seem to have plan out death, Graham, Peter Pan, Cora very plan out death, Neal death was more rash, and reminded when Tasha Yar and Jadzida Dax died in star trek all because of BTS stuff.
"I will be kind but I will speak my mind."
Agreed @RP! Neal’s death was just…to put it mildly…awkward and ill timed. Not that I would’ve been happy if he did die at the end of S2 (too much of his story to tell still!) but it would have fit into the storyline at least. But they bring him back, have him do very little while in NL, then kill him off. It just doesn’t make sense.
It drives me insane that they incorporated Neal into so many characters’ storylines, and then bam! gone.
Ok, and you know what else has been driving me up a wall? Why didn’t he sign his ‘get Emma there’s a curse coming….AGAIN’ letter? Like, a lil ‘XOXO, Neal’ would’ve really helped, buddy. 🙂
Ok, and you know what else has been driving me up a wall? Why didn’t he sign his ‘get Emma there’s a curse coming….AGAIN’ letter? Like, a lil ‘XOXO, Neal’ would’ve really helped, buddy. 🙂
Because that would mean the characters (read: writers) would have to recognize that Neal was a true hero.
EDIT TO ADD: and that wasn’t the point. The heroics get turned to other people Snow/Charming who cast the Dark Curse; Regina who broke it; Hook who brought Emma to NYC; only the audience will ever be privileged to know what Neal did.
"He was a lot of things to me" "The only conclusion was love"Because that would mean the characters (read: writers) would have to recognize that Neal was a true hero.
The Charming line at the ‘coronation’ ceremony of “we name him for a hero, someone who saved every one of us” isn’t the characters recognising Neal was a hero?
If one is to engage with the primordial forces of darkness, one must expect a little social awkwardness
I think RG is referring to the fact that Neal is the one who sent the message, no one knows that. They just know he died so Rumple can tell them about Zelena.
Which makes me go back to Rainbow post, why was Neal aware of Zelena pre curse but not aware of Zelena post curse. I understand erased memories. But if Neal can hear Zelena inside of Rumple (he was able to removed himself from Rumple) in Enchanted Forest, shouldn’t he hear Zelena in StoryBrooke….. did I just fall into another plot hole, can someone save me with logic and rationale…..
2nd question: How was Neal able to separate himself from Rumple physically without the help of magic or Emma.
"I will be kind but I will speak my mind."
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