Belle

[RumplesGirl]

I think one of the great things about the show is that it doesn’t deal entirely in absolutes of black/white *or* shades of grey. While the show definitely adheres to some core, unbreakable truths- many of the rules are bendable and open to interpretation. This is fantastic! I love that there are people who disagree with my interpretation of characters and who adore characters I loathe. When I first started poking into the fandom and saw the huge amount of support within the fandom for Regina I was surprised and then overjoyed. I really dislike Regina, but the show is varied enough that other people found her relatable. HOW COOL.

I completely agree. I love that there are people on here who really despise Rumple and every time I start defending him (which I tend to do quite a bit), they come back at me and instantly we’re dialoguing. I also like that we almost always manage to keep it polite.

First of all, I want to go ahead and say that I don’t think the show is painting the story of Belle/Rumple as an ideal romantic relationship. I mean, that’s really the whole driving point of the show, isn’t it? That fairy tales have their dark sides: true love doesn’t always work out, “happily ever after” may not last as long as one would hope, innocents suffer, and everyone’s journey is a difficult one. The only thing that makes FTL different than our world is the existence of those few, shining absolute concepts (true love’s kiss etc) that are usually tied to magic.

Again, I agree. I also don’t think there is any such thing as an “ideal romantic relationship.” Even Snowing went through several problems (losing one another, Snow’s memories, disagreements over Regina and the Curse, ect) and for the show or fans to hold one relationship up as idea actually says more about the individual than it does the show itself.

However, I think the other possibility is that her “sense about people” (or however she phrased it in Lacey) was “active” from the moment she laid eyes on Rumplestiltskin, and she chose to go with him because at no point did she believe she ever had anything to fear from him. If that’s the case, then it’s more the story of her initial impression of him persevering throughout their time together (and then eventually strengthening) and that’s a different series of events all together.

Mmmh. Again, agree. We got some hints in Lacey that his reputation isn’t really as sinister as we might expect. He’s known for making deals. If he truly wanted to be embrace ALL the Darkness of being the Dark One, why deal? He could easily just kill someone to get what he wanted. I think Belle knew this. I think she saw that he was lonely. She says as much in Skin Deep, “Why did you want me here?” “Place was filthy” “I think you were lonely.” He didn’t really want “good help” I think he wanted someone to talk to, even if that talking to wasn’t really polite conversation. He has tons of magic. The man could wave is hand and his castle would be clean. The giving of the pillow, while given with Rumple’s characteristic snark, was actually kind of touching, in my opinion. RC is such a brilliant actor, he played with his face enough so that you could tell Rumple was distressed by the crying, not annoyed. And Belle sees this, that’s why she insists on his goodness and that he’s not a monster. She sees he isn’t, it’s about getting him to see that. And when the whole world tells you that you are a monster and unlovable, it’s very hard to take one person who thinks differently seriously. Especially she’s is “good.” (loaded term that I hate, but am using).

So it does really seem unfair for Belle to react to him with so much venom when she witnessed Rumplestiltskin do so much worse.

That is- unless we go ahead and assume that there is something to the whole “people sense” ability she has. (And I admit, this is dubious. Even Emma’s much toted “lie detector” skills seemed only so-so.) She didn’t have to get to know Hook because she was able to sense right away that at his core- he was evil. It’s got little to do with his actual actions- after all, someone can do good things but still have a dark heart. I imagine that in the next few episodes we’re going to see exactly what Hook is capable of.

I’ve said this other places to some Hook fans who were really upset at Belle’s “rotten heart” comment, but I think it was A) a throw away line and B) said in the heat of the moment by Belle who was staring down the barrel of a gun and trying to escape. Hook obviously doesn’t have a totally rotten heart, that just doesn’t fit with the theme of the show. And we all know that “super powers” can be unreliable when emotions are involved. What’s more emotional than impending death and fear for your True Love?

As to the female heroism things brought up by both BAMF and Myril: I agree, but I think OUaT is the opposite of traditional “anti-feminism” in terms of fighting, power, ect. Thus far, all the big baddies who truly threaten the existence of everyone have been women: Regina, Cora, Tamara. Snow White, in the classic depiction, is really helpless. Our Snow fights, shoots arrows, deals with trolls, can kill Ogres 28 years after firing a bow! Emma Swan is the SAVIOR of an entire people not to mention just flat out awesome. Ruby isn’t just the helpless little girl in a red hood, but also a wolf who can control her powers. Even Granny is a powerhouse with her cross bow at town meetings. One thing this show gets praised for time and time is the way they’ve drawn seriously strong women characters.

But um, yep! Sorry for continuing to derail the thread.I’ll try to be good, I promise. ^_^;;

Lol. Seriously, don’t worry about this. I’ll tell you now, we all go on tangents. And where the conversation goes, people follow. The point of this thread is to talk about anything Belle related, whether that’s Rumple and her or just her or just the idea of “Belle” in general.

I really like all your postings.

[PriceofMagic]

@obisgirl wrote:

It’s going to be an interesting relationship ahead for them. I’d hate to see Gold walk away from Belle, but that could very well happen if she doesn’t change. He wants to be better for his son, but there’s this conflict to be with Belle regardless of how she’s changed.

I think Rumple’s going to be faced with a dilemma between Belle and Bae.

Belle loved him, even when he was at his worse, she saw him as a man when everyone else saw him as a monster. She inspires him to be a better man but she doesn’t equate being better with giving up magic.

Bae became afraid of his father when he became the dark one. He wanted Rumple to give up his power and go back to the man he was before. Bae believed Rumple had to give up magic in order to be a good man.

Belle loved Rumple unconditionally whereas Bae couldn’t love his father whilst he was the dark one. Bae didn’t want his father to find him, and when Rumple did, Bae rejected him. They may be on the road to reunion but Rumple knows he is just one misdeed away from losing Bae again.

Rumple is faced with a difficult choice, does he risk losing Lacey and by extension Belle because he doesn’t want to risk losing Bae?

All magic comes with a price!

Keeper of Felix

[thelonebamf]

@RumplesGirl wrote:

Mmmh. Again, agree. We got some hints in Lacey that his reputation isn’t really as sinister as we might expect. He’s known for making deals. If he truly wanted to be embrace ALL the Darkness of being the Dark One, why deal? He could easily just kill someone to get what he wanted. I think Belle knew this. I think she saw that he was lonely. She says as much in Skin Deep, “Why did you want me here?” “Place was filthy” “I think you were lonely.” He didn’t really want “good help” I think he wanted someone to talk to, even if that talking to wasn’t really polite conversation.

You know, I really hadn’t thought about the deal-making aspect of the character until just now, but you bring up a lot of excellent points. There was very little he could not take by force as the Dark One, so it is interesting that he makes deals and plays games. Some of this is no doubt due to a desire to entertain himself- but I can’t help but wonder if there isn’t an aspect of (admittedly harsh) lesson teaching as well. After all, what better way to teach that magic “comes with a price” than to hand the other person an invoice?

I should probably go back and examine the episodes for a better idea of the timeline, but do we have any indication that he was a dealmaker before losing Bae? Admittedly, it wasn’t until after they were parted that he had much need for particular magical items, up until that point, it was just a matter of having influence and a place to live that wasn’t a shack. I’m wondering if the loss of Bae didn’t really hammer home the “price of magic” lesson into Rumple’s head- and he then decided that everyone else should know it as well.

I actually, really, truly hope that next season will show us a magic-less Rumplestiltskin. There seems to be this false dichotomy flying around that Rumple will have to choose between Bae and Belle (as Lacey) but I think the third option is to have Bae & Belle (as Belle) but no magic. I think they brought up the idea in the last podcast that Tamara may steal his magic from him, and I can easily see that happening (to defend Henry or otherwise). If Belle returns and she and Rumple are able to reconcile (or at least be on that path) then I think the loss of magic and fallout from that will provide some great character conflict that will keep their relationship interesting.

I’ve said this other places to some Hook fans who were really upset at Belle’s “rotten heart” comment, but I think it was A) a throw away line and B) said in the heat of the moment by Belle who was staring down the barrel of a gun and trying to escape. Hook obviously doesn’t have a totally rotten heart, that just doesn’t fit with the theme of the show. And we all know that “super powers” can be unreliable when emotions are involved. What’s more emotional than impending death and fear for your True Love?

I really do think you’re right. Belle was lashing out at Hook with the only weapon at her disposal- words.

As to the female heroism things brought up by both BAMF and Myril: I agree, but I think OUaT is the opposite of traditional “anti-feminism” in terms of fighting, power, ect. Thus far, all the big baddies who truly threaten the existence of everyone have been women: Regina, Cora, Tamara. Snow White, in the classic depiction, is really helpless. Our Snow fights, shoots arrows, deals with trolls, can kill Ogres 28 years after firing a bow! Emma Swan is the SAVIOR of an entire people not to mention just flat out awesome. Ruby isn’t just the helpless little girl in a red hood, but also a wolf who can control her powers. Even Granny is a powerhouse with her cross bow at town meetings. One thing this show gets praised for time and time is the way they’ve drawn seriously strong women characters.

This is absolutely true. As season two began and we were treated to images of Snow, Emma, Mulan and Aurora tromping through the woods, I actually say back and went “huh, that isn’t something you see every day”. This show is packed with powerful female characters, all of whom are strong, but flawed- which makes them believable as individuals. Belle is no exception to this rule.

Lol. Seriously, don’t worry about this. I’ll tell you now, we all go on tangents. And where the conversation goes, people follow. The point of this thread is to talk about anything Belle related, whether that’s Rumple and her or just her or just the idea of “Belle” in general.

I really like all your postings.

Thanks, that’s good to know. I know some forums are more particular about people remaining on topic, but it seems so tricky to keep my thoughts on track when there are so many interconnected story elements between all the characters! And uh thank you! I… clearly have lots of things bouncing around inside my head. I’m really happy to have found a place to express them with others. 😀

"Nothing is easier than to denounce the evildoer; nothing is more difficult than to understand him."

[RumplesGirl]

I should probably go back and examine the episodes for a better idea of the timeline, but do we have any indication that he was a dealmaker before losing Bae?

Great question. From a poetic standpoint, I think the first deal he made was with the old man who of course turned out to be the previous Dark One. As Zozo dies he even says that now Rumple will think twice before making a deal he doesn’t understand.

actually, really, truly hope that next season will show us a magic-less Rumplestiltskin. There seems to be this false dichotomy flying around that Rumple will have to choose between Bae and Belle (as Lacey) but I think the third option is to have Bae & Belle (as Belle) but no magic. I think they brought up the idea in the last podcast that Tamara may steal his magic from him, and I can easily see that happening (to defend Henry or otherwise). If Belle returns and she and Rumple are able to reconcile (or at least be on that path) then I think the loss of magic and fallout from that will provide some great character conflict that will keep their relationship interesting.

My pet theory for S3 is that we’re going to see both Regina and Rumple without magic. I think it gives them both immense room to grow as characters and it will make for enjoyable watching, especially if they are continually tempted with trying to take back their powers. Plus, it opens up doors to see Rumbelle grow and Papastilstkin and Bae (which I am all in favor for) and I’d like to see Regina try to really mother Henry with Emma, learn how to not rely so heavily on magic or at all.

"He was a lot of things to me" "The only conclusion was love"

[thelonebamf]

@RumplesGirl wrote:

From a poetic standpoint, I think the first deal he made was with the old man who of course turned out to be the previous Dark One. As Zozo dies he even says that now Rumple will think twice before making a deal he doesn’t understand.

That makes sense as the first deal, but I do think that for a while, after assuming those powers Rumplestiltskin seemed to naively believe that he could be a “different kind” of Dark One. This is evidenced in his pride in “bringing the children home” from the Ogre wars etc. He used his power for sure- but not in a bargaining kind of way, at least not the way we have come to associate with the character. I do think that the deals are very much unique to Rumplestiltskin as the Dark One, not the Dark One curse in general, as though the dying words of Zozo made an impression on him and he took them to heart.

More important is the deal he made with Bae. He made it the way anyone else would make an agreement with their child, and then he broke it with disastrous consequences. I think at that moment he decided he would never break a deal again, and from that point on he became fixated on bargains and teaching people the consequences of dealing with magic. (Deal deal deal. I’ve said it so many times it doesn’t look like a word anymore.)

My pet theory for S3 is that we’re going to see both Regina and Rumple without magic. I think it gives them both immense room to grow as characters and it will make for enjoyable watching, especially if they are continually tempted with trying to take back their powers. Plus, it opens up doors to see Rumbelle grow and Papastilstkin and Bae (which I am all in favor for) and I’d like to see Regina try to really mother Henry with Emma, learn how to not rely so heavily on magic or at all.

I’d be up for that! I think Rumple would end up having a bit of a crisis between finally being free of the curse, but also believing himself too weak to protect his family, and now without anything to offer Belle. After all, without the curse- perhaps he’d think there’s no “layers” for Belle to uncover and that she might lose interest in an old man who knows a bit about sheep. (Not my feelings on the character at all, but he does seem to be hard on himself.) Of course we know Belle wouldn’t feel that way, but that’s some delicious internal struggle to sink our teeth in to!

"Nothing is easier than to denounce the evildoer; nothing is more difficult than to understand him."

[laurieanne]

@thelonebamf wrote:

My pet theory for S3 is that we’re going to see both Regina and Rumple without magic. I think it gives them both immense room to grow as characters and it will make for enjoyable watching, especially if they are continually tempted with trying to take back their powers. Plus, it opens up doors to see Rumbelle grow and Papastilstkin and Bae (which I am all in favor for) and I’d like to see Regina try to really mother Henry with Emma, learn how to not rely so heavily on magic or at all.

I’d be up for that! I think Rumple would end up having a bit of a crisis between finally being free of the curse, but also believing himself too weak to protect his family, and now without anything to offer Belle. After all, without the curse- perhaps he’d think there’s no “layers” for Belle to uncover and that she might lose interest in an old man who knows a bit about sheep. (Not my feelings on the character at all, but he does seem to be hard on himself.) Of course we know Belle wouldn’t feel that way, but that’s some delicious internal struggle to sink our teeth in to!

I would love to see that as well. One thing I found myself wishing since I began watching in January (so had to compress a lot into a short time) was that K & H had let Storybrooke breathe a little without the curse but also without magic. I found myself questioning, “Is that because the curse is broken or because there is magic?” a lot. It may be that they had things planned out this far already, and maybe that is the story they plan to tell in S3. It would be fascinating to see Rumple and Regina without magic but with full knowledge (in terms of being able to talk about that with others) of who they are. They knew who they were in S1 but no one else did. Belle (as Belle) is a big part of the picture for Rumple, just as Henry is for Regina. But it will tell a much more involved/complex story if they don’t rely on the “good” people in their lives to motivate them, but instead make those decisions on their own, especially if there is the temptation to try and get their magic back.

[thelonebamf]

@LaurieAnne wrote:

It would be fascinating to see Rumple and Regina without magic but with full knowledge (in terms of being able to talk about that with others) of who they are. They knew who they were in S1 but no one else did. Belle (as Belle) is a big part of the picture for Rumple, just as Henry is for Regina. But it will tell a much more involved/complex story if they don’t rely on the “good” people in their lives to motivate them, but instead make those decisions on their own, especially if there is the temptation to try and get their magic back.

What if season 3 had the characters in some unfamiliar territory (say Neverland or such) and neither Regina nor Rumple had magic- but Regina (and any followers/help she has) are trying to gain it while Rumple/Charmings/etc are trying to keep it out of her hands. Then we get to have a fun moment where everyone questions whether Rumple is really trying to keep if from her, or claim it for himself. Mwahaha.

"Nothing is easier than to denounce the evildoer; nothing is more difficult than to understand him."

[obisgirl]

@thelonebamf wrote:

I actually, really, truly hope that next season will show us a magic-less Rumplestiltskin. There seems to be this false dichotomy flying around that Rumple will have to choose between Bae and Belle (as Lacey) but I think the third option is to have Bae & Belle (as Belle) but no magic. I think they brought up the idea in the last podcast that Tamara may steal his magic from him, and I can easily see that happening (to defend Henry or otherwise). If Belle returns and she and Rumple are able to reconcile (or at least be on that path) then I think the loss of magic and fallout from that will provide some great character conflict that will keep their relationship interesting.

Hmm, that is a very interesting third option. I hope magic becomes less of a crutch for Gold at some point, and who knows, you could be right and he tries to go cold turkey next season so he doesn’t have to risk loosing Belle or his son. b/c really, I don’t want him to lose either of them. so Gold making a deal with both to not use magic would be interesting to watch.

as for the females on this show one phrase comes to mind. something Carrie Fisher said about describing Leia: she is a distressing damsel. in other words, the females don’t wait around for the men to rescue them. they will find a way to rescue themselves. and you really see that a lot with the women on this show. they will take matters into their own hands instead of letting a guy do the rescuing.

[thelonebamf]

I don’t think Gold could just say he wasn’t going to use magic like Regina did at the beginning of the season. It would go just about as well for him as it did for her. Also, I think since we’ve already seen a character make that sort of promise and break it, we’ll hopefully not be in for a repeat of that story. I think instead he’ll make some sort of choice to have the magic forcibly taken from him. So it will be a choice, and it will be in favor of choosing Bae, Belle, Henry and goodness for a change, but after the choice is made there won’t be a way for him to “slip up” like Regina did.

True facts about the ladies on this show! And more often than not, they’re not just rescuing themselves, they’re rescuing the guys! Belle does this on multiple accounts. She saves her kingdom (are we pretty much certain that she’s a princess, not just a lady/daughter of a military leader?), saves Phillip from his curse, and I’m certain we’ll eventually see her save Rumplestiltskin. Not bad for a bookworm. ^_^

"Nothing is easier than to denounce the evildoer; nothing is more difficult than to understand him."

[obisgirl]

@thelonebamf wrote:

I don’t think Gold could just say he wasn’t going to use magic like Regina did at the beginning of the season. It would go just about as well for him as it did for her. Also, I think since we’ve already seen a character make that sort of promise and break it, we’ll hopefully not be in for a repeat of that story. I think instead he’ll make some sort of choice to have the magic forcibly taken from him. So it will be a choice, and it will be in favor of choosing Bae, Belle, Henry and goodness for a change, but after the choice is made there won’t be a way for him to “slip up” like Regina did.

.

Awww. I like that story angle too.

@thelonebamf wrote:

…and I’m certain will eventually see her save Rumplestiltskin. Not bad for a bookworm. ^_^

I REALLY love this one too.

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