Belle

[PriceofMagic]

(are we pretty much certain that she’s a princess, not just a lady/daughter of a military leader?)[/quote]

I don’t think Belle is a princess but more likely an earl’s daughter. In Skin Deep, Belle talks about saving her village rather than a kingdom. Also royals tended to be married off to other royals, example- “James” and Abigail. Belle was supposed to be marrying Gaston but he didn’t seem like a royal, more likely a high ranking soldier. Maurice wouldn’t have married Belle off to someone beneath her high status. An earl’s daughter and a soldier were more an even rank than a princess and a soldier.

[thelonebamf]

Thanks for that clarification, PriceofMagic. I’m not much of an expert when it comes to how political and royal structures work. It didn’t seem like she was a princess, just some sort of high ranking lady, but I had no idea what her official position might be.

Also- I am just now realizing that “Moe” was supposed to be a play on Mau-rice. Ahaha. Ha. I’m not too quick today.

"Nothing is easier than to denounce the evildoer; nothing is more difficult than to understand him."

[RumplesGirl]

Re Moe: in FTL they never named him, but in the credits he appears as “Sir Maurice” so, not a King.

"He was a lot of things to me" "The only conclusion was love"

[thelonebamf]

So he’s a knight, then? Or something like it? Looks like since knighthoods are given (rather than hereditary) she doesn’t really get a title, except for maybe ‘Dame’. But it would make sense that a knight would be working on military strategies during the war and would have expected his daughter to marry a knight in turn.

"Nothing is easier than to denounce the evildoer; nothing is more difficult than to understand him."

[Keb]

Some knighthoods in some places were hereditary. And within a feudal system, a knight is just a mini-king over whatever lands he has been granted by whatever king he pledges fealty to.

They did nicely confuse things by her saying “kingdom” in Lacey though.

Keeper of Belle's Gold magic, sand dollar, cloaks, purple FTL outfit, spell scroll, library key, copy of Romeo and Juliet, and cry-muffling pillow, Rumple's doll, overcoat, and strength, and The Timeline. My spreadsheet: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B6r8CySCCWd9R0RUNm4xR3RhMEU/view?usp=sharing

[thelonebamf]

Ah, like I’ve said I’m no expert. Is there a title given to the children of a Knight who has inherited the Knighthood?

"Nothing is easier than to denounce the evildoer; nothing is more difficult than to understand him."

[Myril]

In Lacey Belle says to Robin Hood, she made a deal to serve Rumple in exchange for him protecting her kingdom and her family from the ogres. So princess or did she exaggerate? She said “my kingdom” hesitantly.

I’m by now bit unsure, what Belle is or was. Before thought it possible, that Belle’s father was simply the mayor, leader of a self-governed town (boroughs), a rich merchant not nobility – what would be more consistent with the original version of Beauty and the Beast. Or more precise, with the short version commonly known. Read that in the first publish version by Villeneuve there was a bit of a different background story, where she was actually the daughter of a king and a (disguised) fairy, planted for her own safety as baby into the family of the merchant. No kidding – found this interesting information on a general great blog called Tales of Faerie, here a direct link to the info.

Anyway. As other noted, the use of Sir indicates, if alike British titles, that Belle’s father would be a baronet or knight, so gentry or what is sometimes called untitled nobility (occasionally born not as noble but as commoner, bestowed with the honor of baronet or knight for extraordinary services). Somehow I like the idea of him being a merchant and not nobility more.

@thelonebamf wrote:

Ah, like I’ve said I’m no expert. Is there a title given to the children of a Knight who has inherited the Knighthood?

You mean something alike princess for the daughter of a King? Nope, no particular title for the children. Belle would have been addressed simple as Lady Belle.

¯\_(?????? ?)_/¯

[thelonebamf]

@myril wrote:

I’m by now bit unsure, what Belle is or was. Before thought it possible, that Belle’s father was simply the mayor, leader of a self-governed town (boroughs), a rich merchant not nobility – what would be more consistent with the original version of Beauty and the Beast. Or more precise, with the short version commonly known. Read that in the first publish version by Villeneuve there was a bit of a different background story, where she was actually the daughter of a king and a (disguised) fairy, planted for her own safety as baby into the family of the merchant. No kidding – found this interesting information on a general great blog called Tales of Faerie, here a direct link to the info.

You have just changed my life for the next few days with that link. Thank you! <3

"Nothing is easier than to denounce the evildoer; nothing is more difficult than to understand him."

[Keb]

We do have to be careful with “the original” and historical evidence when it comes to fairytales. For one thing, most fairytales have been through many, many incarnations since they were first told–even when talking Grimm, which is the first written recording of many of the stories we love, there were different versions published by the brothers themselves. And that’s after the transformations that the oral versions went through.

As for historical evidence, you have to pin things down to a particular place and time. Knighthood has had various forms in different societies for several thousand years. Some kinds of knighthood were hereditary, some not. Currently, knighthood in England is a title that people get for contributions to society and culture, rather than a military entity as it once was, or a position just under the nobility as it was for a while in between (though it still carried military duties at that time). And I’m talking England because I know a tiny bit more about that (having performed as the wife of a knight in Elizabeth I’s court at a renn faire for some years), but Disney’s Belle lives in France at, based on the fashions, some fantasy period in the 18th century. (Which doesn’t make it at ALL the real France, but we’ll go with Lumiere’s statement that it’s France anyway.) So the rules that apply in England, even at the same time, might not apply in France (and I have no idea, honestly).

And that’s the last caveat: It’s a fantasy world with its own rules (or lack thereof). So while it certainly has a basis in history and the stories as written down, there’s no reason that they have to stick to those. You could easily have a knight ruling a kingdom if that’s what Adam and Eddy want to do. The term princess is fairly imprecise, too, through history–we now treat it as daughter of a king or wife of a prince, but it was used historically for a few different ranks of women. (There’s also the argument that all girls are princesses, which I’ve always adhered to, but that’s another issue.) Prince went through a few incarnations in English, as well. (Principality? Totally related term, incidentally.)

Which is not to say this stuff isn’t fascinating–just that because we’re talking about a girl who saved her family from ogres by agreeing to clean a castle that belongs to the Dark One, any answers we find may not apply in this case.

Keeper of Belle's Gold magic, sand dollar, cloaks, purple FTL outfit, spell scroll, library key, copy of Romeo and Juliet, and cry-muffling pillow, Rumple's doll, overcoat, and strength, and The Timeline. My spreadsheet: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B6r8CySCCWd9R0RUNm4xR3RhMEU/view?usp=sharing

[thelonebamf]

Thanks Keb. This is all really helpful. I know that a lot of the particulars are fuzzy because we are dealing with a fantasy world that is both based on reality/history but also based on Disney and plenty of things have been altered to whatever makes the most narrative sense. Still, it’s good to have a baseline understanding about these sorts of things and this is an area that I’m woefully ignorant about. Since I’m the sort of person that really likes to understand the nuances of a character and their background/identities before I start to work with them (in fanfics etc) this sort of information helps me a lot.

"Nothing is easier than to denounce the evildoer; nothing is more difficult than to understand him."

[Author]

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