Belle

[Keb]

Well, if you pin down what aspects you want in your fanfic, you can use things like wikipedia to sort out a lot of stuff. (Also, if you have access as a student or whatever, the Oxford English dictionary is brilliant for particular terms and their usage over time.) But you’ll have to make some choices based on what you think works best–cuz there’s not just one answer unless it’s in the show itself. (And they’ve now called Belle’s home a village, town, and kingdom at various points. Her intended was Sir Gaston and her father based on the credits Sir Maurice. That’s what we’ve got to go on pretty much.)

[thelonebamf]

True, true. I’ll have to make some choices, likely based on whatever suits the story best, but it’s good to have an idea where to look!

"Nothing is easier than to denounce the evildoer; nothing is more difficult than to understand him."

[Myril]

@thelonebamf wrote:

@myril wrote:

(…) found this interesting information on a general great blog called Tales of Faerie, here a direct link to the info.

You have just changed my life for the next few days with that link. Thank you! <3

You’re welcome. 🙂

@Keb wrote:

We do have to be careful with “the original” and historical evidence when it comes to fairytales.

Beauty and the Beast is acknowledged as a fairy tale to deviate from alleged typical fairy tale pattern of not just damsel-in-distress but princess-in-distress rescued by hero (aka knight, prince). Although another fairy tale not fitting into that alleged princess pattern immediately coming to my mind is Snow White and Rose Red (quite sure commoners, peasants), and if you look at Cinderella it’s not all clear either, or depending on version, if she is of noble birth (duke, earl) or just upper social class (like rich merchant).

Most of our ideas of knights, princes, princesses, nobility is very much influenced by fairy tales and fictional legends like the stories of Arthur and his knights, so much that even historians and archaeologists have problems to break from the idealized images we have of medieval society. Chivalry is a concept probably more rooting in fiction than in reality, starting with classical sagas (hero stories) to medieval literature and their revival and glorification by romanticism (what brings us back to what we discussed a little earlier, images of heroes and showing female heroes and different kind of heroism). We should thank particular Minnesang for the high ideal of true love.

Right, it’s a fictional world, so the writers can create whatever hierarchy, forms of nobility and society they like to, maybe take inspiration from existing, historical societies, but certainly adapt it to their needs. Only question in any fictional world is, if it is believable and consistent and working for the narrative. But frankly, I have my doubts, that the writers of OUaT so far have given it much thought, they took what the fairy tales provided, more or less. Might be not so important detail.

On the other hand, paying attention to such details can give ground for interesting stories, even if never becoming the focus of a story. I’ve noticed I am not the only one sometimes wondering, why citizens of Storybrooke don’t seem to question the whole royalty thing now that they have their fairy tale memories and the memories of people of our world. After all they have the memories of people, who live in a liberal democracy, one of the first modern democracies. Would all the commoners, peasants be happy to return to a more unequal society eventually if returning to the Enchanted Forest? Returning to their old world doesn’t has to mean though to return to the same kind of society, but it could be a question. Part of Cora’s background story was an issue of inequality set by birth. David was born and raised as peasant, and I think that had a bit of influence on his character and views.

Don’t expect society critical master works from a Sunday evening easy entertainment show, but being aware of it might help good writing. 😉

As for sure being consistent (inside your own creation, fictional universe) helps.

Now, Belle. I’m still not sure what Belle is meant to be in the universe of OUaT, princess, nobles, gentry or the daughter of a (rich) merchant. Is it any important for the story of Rumple and Belle? Probably not, but it’s important for her story – and I don’t want to see Belle’s story just as an extension of Rumple’s.

But even when it’s about Rumbelle. I know this is far from the classical Beauty and the Beast tale anyway, Rumple is no cursed prince. He was a poor peasant before he became the Dark One. And remembering the episode “The Miller’s daughter” looked like he never managed to get real respect from nobility, they might have feared him but despised him as being not one of them. Something that he shared with Cora, what maybe helps to explain their interest in each other. So I find it interesting, what Belle is as well looking at her relationship with Rumple.

¯\_(?????? ?)_/¯

[kfchimera]

@myril wrote:

Now, Belle. I’m still not sure what Belle is meant to be in the universe of OUaT, princess, nobles, gentry or the daughter of a (rich) merchant. Is it any important for the story of Rumple and Belle? Probably not, but it’s important for her story – and I don’t want to see Belle’s story just as an extension of Rumple’s.

I agree it’s unclear what her status is, except that she is the daughter of a man of some power there. She clearly talks about “her people” so in her mind she has responsibility, whether or not she had power to go along with that sense of duty. I don’t see her as being status conscious as Cora, so it doesn’t matter to her what title she may or may not have, except as it could affect her ability to help and be a heroine.

I am one of those people who is also fascinated by the question of government in this world. Especially as we see Regina back in the Mayor’s office. No one has the power to boot her out, I suppose, except Rumpel and he doesn’t care to bother about it right now.
Yet the assumption of going back to FTL, not only raises the question of who will govern and how, but also what kinds of professions will everyone then take on?

Belle became a librarian. Should they go back to FTL–could Belle be a champion of literacy and handing out books to keep the society from reverting into a bunch of helpless peasants? I like the idea of them bringing back the good parts of modern life 😛

“If I had a world of my own, everything would be nonsense. Nothing would be what it is, because everything would be what it isn't. And contrary wise, what is, it wouldn't be. And what it wouldn't be, it would. You see?” -- Lewis Carroll, Alice's Adventures in Wonderland & Through the Looking-Glass

[obisgirl]

I always thought of OUAT’s Belle as being the daughter of a Duke or something. and I think Duke’s were equivalent to mayors. They oversaw a piece of land that was their territory, much the same way mayorships work. (someone correct me if I’m wrong).

I like your idea Chimera if our characters bringing the best part of our world back to theirs. Like tacos. 😆

[PriceofMagic]

I would say Belle had some sort of high status but she wasn’t a princess. Maybe when Belle said about saving her “kingdom” she meant it as an extension of saving her home. At the beginning of Skin Deep, Maurice had a map and one of the other men in the room said some other place “had fallen”. Perhaps by making the deal with Rumple, Rumple made the ogres disappear from Belle’s “kingdom”. Afterall, if Rumple only rid the ogres from Belle’s town and not the areas surrounding it, then it would only be a matter of days until the ogres returned and threatened Belle’s village again.

All magic comes with a price!

Keeper of Felix

[thelonebamf]

BRB devouring Myril’s post…

…
…And I’m back.

I hadn’t thought a lot about how the residents of Storybrooke would feel about their government, but I think it is probably a safe wager that their feelings about their particular monarchy (Snow/Charming) wouldn’t have changed. It’s true, they existed for 28 years as residents of a world where democracy exists- however even during their time as Storybrooke citizens it was common knowledge that Regina and Gold held all of the power there was to be held in their town. Nobody ever challenged Regina as mayor (I think this is said explicitly in an early episode) and any power that didn’t fall directly under Mayoral jurisdiction was in Gold’s hands. It wasn’t a true democracy because everyone was kept in line by their fear.

Also- it isn’t as though people in FTL weren’t accustomed to having cruel and unfair Kings and Queens (even excepting Regina). Plenty of monarchs were cruel, sending children to fight in wars, stopping at no cost to fund their bankrupt Kingdoms (Why is every kingdom broke in FTL? Is it all of the wars? Or is the Dark One just wreaking havoc by inflating prices with all of his gold? XD) I think the idea of having a fair and just leader is more important to them than how that person came to power.

And of course, there’s the nostalgia factor. After waking up from their curse the residents of Storybrooke are still stranded in a strange land- and many of them are homesick, some to the point that they’d rather forget their past lives if there’s no way to get back home. It’s no wonder that they’d want to fall back and rely on a (much loved) leading pair, Snow and Charming. I think we also have an interesting contrast with David during “We Are Both”. He tries to lead in the manner of a “modern man”, assembling everyone at the town hall, revealing his plan etc- but that doesn’t go well because it’s not what he’s suited for and in the end it’s not what people respond to. He is much more effective at the town line when he takes on the guise of the “hero”, giving a speech that sounds much more like a commander rallying his troops and encouraging them to soldier on. David’s kicking it old school, because that’s how he knows how to kick. ^_^

This of course doesn’t mean that the people won’t take back ideas from the modern world back to FTL. Some things might not make sense without a more advanced infrastructure (and honestly, it’s hard to say what physical bastions of civilization are still left in FTL), but maybe ideas like a more unified health care system and libraries wouldn’t be amiss. There’s a lot of work to be done restoring their old world and a little forward thinking would go a long way! Especially now that I imagine all the folks of FTL are literate, a skill that might not have belonged to them in their old lives.

Back to the Ogre’s war, I’m really curious how those events went. In “The Return” Rumple tells Bae that he created a “truce” in the war (not that he ended it, which was what I first thought, I had to go back and watch). I wonder what the statute of limitations were on that truce (200 years maybe? Haha…) if the fighting is as bad as it is during “Skin Deep”. Also interesting in that situation (although perhaps better suited to another thread) he uses the phrase, “I led the children home”. I know those children would have been eager to return home, but how do you round up thousands of children from a bloody battle field in an orderly manner? Magic? A magic flute perhaps?

(Psst, Cat, your love of the Pied Piper is showing.)

"Nothing is easier than to denounce the evildoer; nothing is more difficult than to understand him."

[thelonebamf]

Sorry for the double post, but I think I developed a pet theory while chopping spinach today. 🙂

I think that indeed, Sir Maurice is a knight and he was granted his knighthood for services rendered. Whatever his position is, it is clear that he has done well for himself and his daughter and that they live in relative comfort. I think we hear more definitive references to “our village” and “our town” and I think that those are more important than when we hear “my kingdom” because if they were high enough up in royal rankings to be in control of an entire kingdom, they probably wouldn’t be talking about specific towns, however as leaders of a small community they would be concerned about how their town may play a part in the bigger picture.

Sir Maurice is bent over a table in a war room, working on a plan against the ogres. This lends me to believe that he has skills as a military planner. We’ve talked an awful lot about real world knighthoods etc, but I’m going to go ahead and return to the Disney tale as a source of background information. Maurice in the film was a bit of an eccentric, but he was most importantly an inventor. He was a creator of ideas. This particular skill set would flourish in time of war.

I think that perhaps in the earlier years of the ogre war, Maurice was recruited to develop some kind of military technoology. It wouldn’t be a hard sell. He had a daughter to think of and nobody wants their land ravaged by ogres. Things must have gone well enough because he was granted a knighthood and is financially successful. Enough so that he is able to offer gold as payment to Rumplestiltskin (when other kingdoms are flat broke) so perhaps he was able to sell his inventions to other kingdoms that were embroiled in battle.

This backstory would align fairly well with what we’ve seen of Maurice and Bell. He has risen to a high position with influence after his inventions did well, now he’s an advisor in the war. He’s been financially successful and has been able to provide Belle with a comfortable life- but he has probably shielded her from much of the ugliness of war, but she’s smart enough and compassionate enough to care about what her father’s work really means and what is happening outside their walls. It would also encourage Belle to make some sort of effort of her own towards ending the fighting, after seeing how hard her father has worked to bring peace to the land she herself would want to do what she could- to do the brave thing.

I don’t think that saying things like “my people” or “my kingdom” really indicate that she’s a princess. Anyone might use those phrases and all it really indicates is that they are loyal to their homeland and interested in the wellbeing of those who live there.

"Nothing is easier than to denounce the evildoer; nothing is more difficult than to understand him."

[kellen]

I’m actually finding myself annoyed with what’s been done with Belle. We had a strong female character who learned to look after herself and could see beyond the immediately obvious, and voila, we have Lacey, who’s described as ‘fun and flirty’ but is apparently a sadist and an idiot as well, since it hasn’t occured to her that she might become the victim of the behaviour she’s giggling about when it’s directed at others. And Rumplestiltskin, who supposedly loved Belle so much, doesn’t care about the change — or that he’s alienating the son he was supposedly so desperate to find — as long as he’s got Belle’s body walking around. Ntbr, but when you can’t differentiate between a body and the person in it, you’re not in love, you’re just in heat. Don’t get me wrong: I think Carlyle’s done a fantastic job of making Rumplestiltskin someone for whom redemption was a credible possibility, but I don’t think even he can continue to sustain that credibility after the writers have made his character oblivious to the differences between Belle and her doppelganger and do a complete 180 about the son he supposedly loved so much that that love was the one thing that still connected him with his humanity. I suppose the writers might see it as a fun twist to have Belle encouraging the Beast to be a beast, but so far I see it as just another pointless rehash of “don’t ever kid yourselves, girls: all that really matters is your looks”. I think girls/women get quite enough of that without getting it in OUAT as well.

[angiebelle]

I don’t see it that way…I think deep down, Rumple knows it’s Belle he really wants and not Lacey. He seems to be enjoying Lacey and amused by her, but I don’t see the deep love for her that he has for Belle. He knows what he has for Lacey isn’t real, and he is conflicted between enjoying the illusion and wanting the real thing. He has not given himself over entirely to his dark side- otherwise he wouldn’t have told Lacey about how magic pushes away those he cares about most. He knows he is hurting his chances with Bae. You could see it in his eyes when Bae caught him beating on Dr. Whale.

[Author]

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