Better, But Not Different

[nevermore]

Belle gave Rumple an ultimatum before: her or the dagger. Belle said it best, “your true love is power.” Rumple basically echoed this sentiment when he said he “loves the dagger” (or rather, what it represents, I gather). By refusing to give up the dagger (despite being free of it) he rejected her ultimatum. On top of that, he countered with his own ultimatum: take it or leave it. I don’t see how Belle can honestly live with that without sacrificing her self-dignity. Rumple is basically manipulating her.

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@Slurpeez, I agree with much of what you’re saying, but I think there’s an issue with the ultimatum logic. I think they are both engaged in manipulating each other, through different means. Ultimatums of any variety, on the part of either party, are not a good basis for a healthy (scratch that, even just a merely functional) relationship. Combine that with the yo-yo effect of on again-off again, and I actually think that what Belle and Rumple are doing is a variant of co-dependency. Either way, they are both participating and perpetuating an unhealthy dynamic, where they are both attempting to control the other, albeit through very different means (Rumple mostly through deceit and trying to cover his butt, and Belle by threatening to end the relationship, which, one might argue, is additionally effective against Rumple since at the core of his personality is an abandonment complex, so she’s partially playing off on that).

Either way, threatening to leave unless your partner changes — or, the reverse move, which is “take me as I am, or scoot” are both variants of the same thing, a kind of “my way or the highway” refusal to meet half way. Belle’s “Hero or Bust” is, in some senses, the mirror image of Rumple’s “Beast or Bust”.

Minimally, what they are both doing doesn’t solve anything. There’s actually quite a bit of evidence to suggest that discipline and/or punishment isn’t effective at changing human behavior. (Here’s an example, albeit related to child development rather than adult relationships, though I think the insights are meant to be portable to adults too.) So far, neither Belle nor Rumple have moved towards breaking out of the dysfunctional cycle — but as @Keb said, this is a new phase of their story, and it’s not over yet. (Either way, those two need some serious couples therapy, if nothing else, in order to help them model positive relationship behavior). I actually think that Rumple’s admission of his love for power can be a good thing. In the same way that an alcoholic must first admit he’s an alcoholic to get any sort of help.

I suppose this ought to be viewed as a cautionary tale that love isn’t always enough and that it doesn’t always help someone to become free of addiction/love of power/whatever issue

 

Can I just point out how profoundly bizarre the idea that you either love a person OR you love a particular state of being (which is what addiction is, in some sense) is? I think this is a logical fallacy. Addiction can certainly be inimical to a relationship and unhealthy for both the addict and his loved ones, but conflating these two very different affective states — love for a person, and the psychological and physical dependency on the thing one is addicted to — gets us into an ethical and intellectual dead-end.

[Slurpeez]

I don’t think Rumple was wrong in his observations, at least not completely. Belle DOES like the darkness, and from his perspective, she dumped him again as soon as he was exactly what she SAID she wanted…and took him back when he had the darkness again (even if she didn’t know that). He also knows how the Curse affected people’s personalities/alter egos, having experienced it himself; I think that Lacey represents a part of Belle that a) was always present, if suppressed and b) is almost certainly still in her somewhere, as We Are Both was supposed to suggest. She’s said herself that she loves all of him, including the darkness. But she’s not wrong to want him to stop murdering the peasants, either; I think she’d be happy with his having the power to do so if a) he wasn’t choosing it over her and b) he wasn’t murdering the peasants. Those were the two breaking points for her in 4A.

I just don’t buy Rumple’s lie that she loves the darkness. Belle never said she loved the darkness. What she really said was, “I love him… All of him, even… Even the parts that belong to the darkness.” I think Belle is clearly able to distinguish between the parts of Rumple that are consumed by the darkness and the actual darkness itself. Right before she sent him over the town line, she said, “No! It’s too late. Once I… I saw the man behind the beast. Now there’s only a beast.” The clear implication is that Belle doesn’t like the beast (i.e. the darkness). She really loves the man. Rumple is trying to convince her otherwise, but she doesn’t delight in his cursed state. She has wanted to free him of his curse from the very start! All she wanted from the start was for him to choose her over the power.

Rumple: Falling in love with the man behind the beast… isn’t really what happened to you. You fell in love with me… because there was a man and a beast. Neither exists without the other.
Belle: No. No. I-I can’t condone you being like this. Not again.
Rumple: Yes, you can. You just have to choose to. And if you do… we can have what’s important… Family, happiness. It’s your choice.

That is a clear manipulation of the truth. Belle rejects him being in his current state. She rejects that she fell in love with the beast. That isn’t what happened according to her, even though Rumple clearly is trying to convince her otherwise. That is an attempt to control her or convince her of something that never happened (i.e. gas lighting — a tactic Regina tried on Henry). Red flag number 1. Moreover, he is setting up an ultimatum; he is saying she can have every thing her heart desires (a family with the man she loves) but only if she accepts his giving into his addiction. That is another attempt to control her — red flag number 2.

Even if part of Lacey still lurks inside of Belle, that is her cursed alter-ego (i.e. not her true self). Despite meek and scared Mary Margaret being the cursed persona of Snow, she rejected that alter ego not long ago, declaring she only wanted to be Snow White. I really don’t think the real Belle loves the darkness; in fact, she said she couldn’t condone it. While she might love Rumple the man with all of her heart, she has repeatedly said he must choose between her and power. He chose the dagger. Don’t actions speak louder the words? Hopefully, Rumple will prove her doubts wrong this time, and actually learn to reject the power for himself. However, he’s a true addict. I don’t see how he can truly change for the better without giving up the magic entirely. He may never do so though, since it’s rather telling that even when he was “clean” and mortal, he still freely chose to become the dark one again.

But if I were her, and Rumple said he loved the power and myself equally, but then only used the power for protection and not for evil (plus I’m carrying his child), I would probably accept that and at least see if it could work.

I don’t doubt that there will be some compromise that Rumbelle arrives at where she accepts him bak on the grounds that he’ll only use the magic for good, but I don’t see how she can trust him again after everything he’s done. After all, he just used his dark magic to send Milha into the River of Lost Souls. While Belle doesn’t know that yet, I’m pretty sure that is going to come out at some point. How will she be able to believe him when he says he’s changed for the better after she finds out about re-killing Milha? Moreover, as Rumple’s second wife, doesn’t it concern her even a tiny bit that Rumple is still capable of doing that to his first wife, even after all that time? That is a huge red flag! What woman would really want to commit herself to someone who just proved he doesn’t really only use his power for good?

@Slurpeez, I agree with much of what you’re saying, but I think there’s an issue with the ultimatum logic. I think they are both engaged in manipulating each other, through different means. Ultimatums of any variety, on the part of either party, are not a good basis for a healthy (scratch that, even just a merely functional) relationship. Combine that with the yo-yo effect of on again-off again, and I actually think that what Belle and Rumple are doing is a variant of co-dependency. Either way, they are both participating and perpetuating an unhealthy dynamic, where they are both attempting to control the other, albeit through very different means (Rumple mostly through deceit and trying to cover his butt, and Belle by threatening to end the relationship, which, one might argue, is additionally effective against Rumple since at the core of his personality is an abandonment complex, so she’s partially playing off on that).

I take an ultimatum to be “a final demand or statement of terms, the rejection of which will result in retaliation or a breakdown in relations.” However, I take your point about the co-dependency, since if she takes him back while he’s still the dark one, it could be said she’s only enabling his addiction to magic. The relationship is very dysfunctional and unhealthy, for both parties. Yet, Belle has also set up an ultimatum before. From 4×12: “You’d never give up power for me, Rumple. You never have. You never will.” I take this to be a sort of declaration: choose her over power. When Belle thought he was free of the power (and thus, in her mind, the addiction), she was hesitant, but still willing to take him back and re-consumate the marriage. Then he went and chose to become the dark one again, and she said she couldn’t condone it. However, if she does end up taking him back again while he refuses to give up magic, then an argument could be made that they’re very co-dependent.

Either way, threatening to leave unless your partner changes — or, the reverse move, which is “take me as I am, or scoot” are both variants of the same thing, a kind of “my way or the highway” refusal to meet half way. Belle’s “Hero or Bust” is, in some senses, the mirror image of Rumple’s “Beast or Bust”.

Yeah. It’s the sharp dichotomy of either A or B that makes it sound like they’re setting ultimatums for each other.  They’re certainly trying to control each other by setting up a set of conditions that must be met, otherwise affection and commitment will be withheld.

Can I just point out how profoundly bizarre the idea that you either love a person OR you love a particular state of being (which is what addiction is, in some sense) is? I think this is a logical fallacy. Addiction can certainly be inimical to a relationship and unhealthy for both the addict and his loved ones, but conflating these two very different affective states — love for a person, and the psychological and physical dependency on the thing one is addicted to — gets us into an ethical and intellectual dead-end.

I think it’s certainly possible to love someone who is addicted, especially if one sees the addiction as a brain disease, which it is. It’s an imbalance of neurotransmitters. I think when Rumple says he loves the dagger, what he really means is that he loves the feeling (or the “high” if you will) that comes with being powerful — especially after he spent a lifetime feeling weak.  If we’re going with the metaphor that dark magic is like an actual addiction to alcohol, then Rumple has a disease. In that light, I think it’s possible for a spouse to stand by a partner with an addiction, provided the afflicted person undergoes treatment to get well. However, if left untreated, addiction can pose a real harm to the spouse and the children. In such a case, then I don’t think the spouse is morally obligated to stay; in fact, if the addict just denies there is even an issue or refuses to get help, then I think Belle’s first priority ought to be to herself and her baby, rather than to Rumple. In fact, by staying with him, she might just be enabling his addiction to continue unchecked; that is a recipe for disaster.

"That’s how you know you’ve really got a home. When you leave it, there’s this feeling that you can’t shake. You just miss it." Neal Cassidy

[thedarkonedearie]

fter all, he just used his dark magic to send Milha into the River of Lost Souls.

But didn’t Hades sort of force his hand here?  He wouldn’t have done it if Hades wasn’t blackmailing him.  If I was Belle, and Rumple told me that he had to do it in order to comply with Hades so he wouldn’t take my child, I wouldn’t hold it against him.  If I believed him of course.

But like, even you acknowledge that Belle said she loves parts of the darkness in him.  And if that is the case, the power part to me isn’t the issue.  She is ok with the power, it’s what he does with that power.  It’s why Robin is ok with Regina having magic.  If she was still using it for evil, it wouldn’t work.  Belle said those things at the town line mainly because of what Rumple was doing with his power (evil hat sucking).  You cut out the evil stuff he does with the power, and I think you have a happy couple going forward.  And other than Milah (which like I said, I feel like his hand was forced there by Hades), Rumple hasn’t really done anything evil since season 4.

[PriceofMagic]

Interesting points on both sides.

I think both Belle and Rumple are right in what they both say, however I think the conflict between them is in how they view what the darkness/being the dark one actually is.

Rumple sees it as part of his identity. He’s been the dark one for so long that it’s literally become a part of him. That is who he is. I don’t think he’s necessarily telling Belle that she has to accept he’s going to go out murdering the peasants, but he’s essentially saying “I am the dark one and you need to accept that if this relationship is going to work”. The only thing I can liken it to as such is being part of a religion. Eg Rumple has been part of a religion for many years before he met Belle who is an atheist. Rumple loves Belle and Belle loves him but she wants him to give up his religion for her. Rumple has tried but it never felt right because he felt he was trying to deny a part of himself. He knew Belle would be upset that he hadn’t given up his religion for her so he lied to her because he wanted her to be happy whilst he indulged in his religion on the sly. Belle found out about the lies then got upset.

Belle see it as an addiction that has taken hold of Rumple. She wants him to get better so she is constantly encouraging him to fight his addiction. When she finds out Rumple is still “using”, she gets upset that Rumple has lied to her. She gives him ultimatums “tough love” to try and force him to give up because his addiction isn’t good for him. Belle loves him but she can’t condone him being an addict.

All magic comes with a price!

Keeper of Felix

[RumplesGirl]

Rumple sees it as part of his identity. He’s been the dark one for so long that it’s literally become a part of him. That is who he is. I don’t think he’s necessarily telling Belle that she has to accept he’s going to go out murdering the peasants, but he’s essentially saying “I am the dark one and you need to accept that if this relationship is going to work”

But can you (well, Rumple) separate those two: the Dark One and the Murdering? He hasn’t been able to in…well, a long time.

 

"He was a lot of things to me" "The only conclusion was love"

[nevermore]

As a side note, Murdering the Peasants (TM) is actually more of a Regina trait.  Rumple if I recall tends to mirder the middle management.

[Slurpeez]

I think this conversation boils down to one simple question. Does Belle love Rumple in spite of his being the dark one or because of his being the dark one (as Rumple claims)? I happen to think Belle loves the real human Rumple in spite of his curse (rather than as a result of it). While it’s true that she fell in love with him while he was still the dark one, I think she fell in love with the real Rumple — the one that Neal said was once a good man.

Now Rumple (or rather, the writers) are retroactively trying to convince Belle (and the audience) otherwise. However, members of the audience like me (and I hope Belle) are able to tell the difference. While I certainly see a case to be made that spinner Rumple really jumped at the chance to get the power of the dagger, he didn’t want power for power’s sake. That was the entire point of “Desperate Souls”; he wanted the power precisely because he wanted to use the power to save Baelfire. The trouble is, once Rumple got a taste of that power, it started to consume him. This is an illustration of the old adage “absolute power corrupts absolutely.”

So, again I ask, what makes Rumple think that this time will be any different? How will he actually stop his heart from turning coal black this time? How does having the combined power of all previous dark ones make him any less likely to succumb to darkness? Wouldn’t it amplify the darkness and thus increase the likelihood of him giving into again, this time even faster than before? We’ve seen him send Milha into oblivion (even if it was at Hades’ behest, it was still before Rumple knew that Hades knew about his second child). I don’t see how we, the audience, are expected to just forget all the prior canon of seasons 1-3. Silly me for thinking this show would actually be logical or consistent, or that it would expect its viewers not to have amnesia. *heads desk again*

"That’s how you know you’ve really got a home. When you leave it, there’s this feeling that you can’t shake. You just miss it." Neal Cassidy

[PriceofMagic]

I thought Rumple threw Milah in the river of souls AFTER Hades told him that Belle was pregnant and that he had the contract for the second born?

All magic comes with a price!

Keeper of Felix

[thedarkonedearie]

As did I.

[nevermore]

I thought Rumple threw Milah in the river of souls AFTER Hades told him that Belle was pregnant and that he had the contract for the second born?

Actually, that’s not the case. Hades got Rumple to dispose of Milah and the boat in exchange of sending him home. However, in Rumple’s defense, at this point Rumple had discovered that Belle was pregnant via the crystal ball spell, so the stakes were presumably a bit higher — obviously having Hades find out that his wife is with child was probably not something Rumple wanted, contract or not contract, precisely because children in the OUAT verse are a primary source of leverage. So he was presumably eager to hoof it out of there, and willing to toe the line set by Hades. At least that’s how I understood that scene (well, also they needed to get Milah out of CS’s way, but details).

The scene with the contract came at the very end. Here’s the transcript if you guys want to take a look.

 

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