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now that he died for him, I hope Bae will at least have more respect for his father
He regained respect for him before he died.
Rumple: Bae.
Neal: Papa.
Rumple: Where’s Henry?
Neal: He’s safe, he’s safe.
Rumple: I told you I wasn’t going to hurt the boy.
Neal: I know, I’m sorry. Why didn’t you tell me Pan was your father?
Rumple: Because I didn’t want you to know that I was as bad a father as he was. Because we’re both the same, me and him. Because we both abandoned our sons.
Neal: No, you’re not the same. You came back for me, Papa.And after Rumple had vanished, Neal said with an anguished mix of pride and sorrow: “My father did what he had to. He saved us.”
Their relationship played out well IMO, and came full circle by the end. There was forgiveness and acceptance by the time they left NL, and then Rumple did the brave thing to save them, unlike over the portal all those years ago when he’d saved himself.
[adrotate group="5"]marty mcfly wrote: now that he died for him, I hope Bae will at least have more respect for his father
He regained respect for him before he died. Rumple: Bae.
Neal: Papa.
Rumple: Where’s Henry?
Neal: He’s safe, he’s safe.
Rumple: I told you I wasn’t going to hurt the boy.
Neal: I know, I’m sorry. Why didn’t you tell me Pan was your father?
Rumple: Because I didn’t want you to know that I was as bad a father as he was. Because we’re both the same, me and him. Because we both abandoned our sons.
Neal: No, you’re not the same. You came back for me, Papa. And after Rumple had vanished, Neal said with an anguished mix of pride and sorrow: “My father did what he had to. He saved us.” Their relationship played out well IMO, and came full circle by the end. There was forgiveness and acceptance by the time they left NL, and then Rumple did the brave thing to save them, unlike over the portal all those years ago when he’d saved himself.it’s true, they did make up in the end on the ship, but if Neal had only known why his father was so afraid of that portal, who he lost the last time he used that bean, and how he tried to dig into the ground a few seconds after he went through. if you look, it’s Bae who pulls his father into the portal and his father is holding his arm trying to “rescue” him from that green whirl. not only that rhight after he is shown the bean he looses his nerve. he says something like “this is a trick to tear us apart..” or something. I think the circumstances of this abandonment were very much against Rumpel
but if Neal had only known why his father was so afraid of that portal, who he lost the last time he used that bean, and how he tried to dig into the ground a few seconds after he went through. if you look, it’s Bae who pulls his father into the portal and his father is holding his arm trying to “rescue” him from that green whirl. not only that rhight after he is shown the bean he looses his nerve. he says something like ”this is a trick to tear us apart..” or something. I think the circumstances of this abandonment were very much against Rumpel
Bae was trying to help his father to start fresh, in a new world, where no one knew who he was, and he wouldn’t have his magic. Bae had no way of knowing how similar the entire situation was to what Rumple had gone through with Malcolm, because Rumple never told him, and Bae wasn’t a mind reader. As far as Bae knew, he was just trying to help save his father, (sacrificing the only life and world that he himself had known, willing to give it all up, for the sake of his father’s soul being saved), and Rumple was a selfish coward who couldn’t give up his power, and as a result of that he ended up lost and alone in a foreign world, then in another one, then in another one, fending for himself for centuries.
I love Rumple a ridiculous amount, he’s been my fave character since the instant we first saw him, but there’s no denying that it was his own decision and his own fault that he let go of Bae’s hand, and took the coward’s way out in that particular instance.
Had Rumple said, when Bae produced the bean, “Son, I know I said I’d do anything, but I have to tell you something about the last time I used a bean to make a portal. I was a boy like yourself, trying to save my father, so we could start a new life in a new world where no one knew us. When we got there, to Neverland, my father made a deal with a shadowy creature who lived there, that if the creature took me away, he could stay and be forever young. And the creature tore me away, and I never saw my father again…until that night at the bonfire, when you were dancing with the other boys who had been lured away from their homes. The Piper was my father, come back to try and steal you from me. So I sort of have issues when it comes to father/son pairs using a magic bean to make a portal to an unknown land to start fresh.” Then Bae would have been more understanding from the getgo, probably would have talked it out some more, assured his father that the same thing wouldn’t happen, and then maybe Rumple would have felt OK enough about it all to jump into the portal with him. (And then we’d have no show.)
But Rumple couldn’t tell Bae those things back then because as the DO he’d become accustomed to not showing vulnerability, and so he was afraid to be honest. So he let Bae lead him out into the woods, and throw down the bean, and at that last moment is when Rumple really, completely lost his nerve, but by then it was too late to stop it, too late to explain, and the result was a centuries old grudge by the time Neal saw him again.
But I say again, Neal had no way to know the truth in order to properly understand what had happened. All he knew was what he experienced from his own perspective, and from his own perspective it was straight up traumatic and he thought his father was an evil, power hungry maniac coward, who didn’t love him. So IMO his reaction to him when he saw him again was completely justified. His distrust in NL was completely justified. It was up to Rumple to prove himself to Neal, and eventually he did.
None of it was Nealfire’s fault. He’d just been a kid trying to help his dad, and he got screwed over and emotionally scarred.
it’s true, they did make up in the end on the ship, but if Neal had only known why his father was so afraid of that portal, who he lost the last time he used that bean, and how he tried to dig into the ground a few seconds after he went through.
Nealfire has no way of knowing something if Rumple doesn’t tell him.
Rumple kept it all to himself and even when he had the chance to tell Nealfire everything, in 304 “Nasty Habits,” Rumple just says “Peter Pan destroyed my father.” Like Belle said in 204, “you need courage to let me in.” Rumple has to stop being afraid of his past and open up about it. The other characters are not magicians who can read minds. If he doesn’t say anything how are they supposed to know? They aren’t sitting at home with their DVDs of ONCE watching his story like we are.
Finally, by making someone else “shoulder the blame” of Rumple’s death, you are diminishing the heroism of his sacrifice. Rumplestiltskin is my very favorite character and I love him an absurd amount. I will always defend him and rationalize his actions. But I am not about to white wash him or make him into a white hatted hero. Rumple, after he became the Dark One, did horrible things. He killed and manipulated. He did these things both in the name of love and in the name of power. And that’s why I love him so much, his actions are that not only of a Dark sorcerer but of a father grieving over past mistakes and his own emotional turmoil from his terrible childhood. But it doesn’t change the fact that he still did those things. And you cannot sweep them under the rug. For a “villain” to be redeemed, you cannot ignore their actions. By trying to say that the prophecy could have been avoided (it couldn’t) or that Baelfire was somehow responsible for Rumple’s death (he wasn’t) you’re taking away from the courage it took Rumple to face his father and defeat him. That was the single bravest thing I think I’ve ever seen Rumple do. He walked out there, no magic, knowing he was going to die, to sacrifice himself for his son, his one true love, and the town. He “died” a hero. Don’t take that away from him by making it the fault of someone else.
"He was a lot of things to me" "The only conclusion was love"I like the put the blame on the two parties involved, Peter Pan and Rumple, but pretty much the ultimate blame lies on the villain of this arch, Peter Pan aka Malcolm. There is no need to try to shift blames on the various victims of Peter Pan selfishness. The story is clear, Pan wanted youth, he gave up his son, Rumple for it, he was going to lose his youth so he wanted the heart of his great grandson to sustain it, he lost that token so he was going to recurse the town to still sustained his youth. Rumple killed his father to stop him from killing Bae and Belle, and recursing the lives of everyone else. He made ultimate sacrifice for those he love. I don’t think Rumple “died” blaming his son, Belle, Henry, or anyone else for the matter. Blame was not in his heart, love was in his heart. So to get back to your question, no the blame does not lie on the victims, the blame lies on the offenders.
"I will be kind but I will speak my mind."
marty mcfly wrote: it’s true, they did make up in the end on the ship, but if Neal had only known why his father was so afraid of that portal, who he lost the last time he used that bean, and how he tried to dig into the ground a few seconds after he went through.
Nealfire has no way of knowing something if Rumple doesn’t tell him. Rumple kept it all to himself and even when he had the chance to tell Nealfire everything, in 304 “Nasty Habits,” Rumple just says “Peter Pan destroyed my father.” Like Belle said in 204, “you need courage to let me in.” Rumple has to stop being afraid of his past and open up about it. The other characters are not magicians who can read minds. If he doesn’t say anything how are they supposed to know? They aren’t sitting at home with their DVDs of ONCE watching his story like we are. Finally, by making someone else “shoulder the blame” of Rumple’s death, you are diminishing the heroism of his sacrifice. Rumplestiltskin is my very favorite character and I love him an absurd amount. I will always defend him and rationalize his actions. But I am not about to white wash him or make him into a white hatted hero. Rumple, after he became the Dark One, did horrible things. He killed and manipulated. He did these things both in the name of love and in the name of power. And that’s why I love him so much, his actions are that not only of a Dark sorcerer but of a father grieving over past mistakes and his own emotional turmoil from his terrible childhood. But it doesn’t change the fact that he still did those things. And you cannot sweep them under the rug. For a “villain” to be redeemed, you cannot ignore their actions. By trying to say that the prophecy could have been avoided (it couldn’t) or that Baelfire was somehow responsible for Rumple’s death (he wasn’t) you’re taking away from the courage it took Rumple to face his father and defeat him. That was the single bravest thing I think I’ve ever seen Rumple do. He walked out there, no magic, knowing he was going to die, to sacrifice himself for his son, his one true love, and the town. He “died” a hero. Don’t take that away from him by making it the fault of someone else.
Beautifully put, RG – the whole thing. That was truly the single bravest thing I’ve seen anyone do on this show, on any show………..I’m so proud of him, I can’t even express myself and my love for my baby, already ridiculous, only grew. Even though the scene is tragic (because we are supposed to believe he died), I still watch it a lot because everything, from Gold writhing on the ground in desperation to save Belle and Bae, to the obvious choice he has to make (it goes beyond just having magic or not; had he used magic, the battle with his father would have continued and Belle/Bae still likely would have died; the ONLY way to end this permanently was to kill Pan and kill himself).
Gold himself always took responsibility for his actions (something a couple of other people have yet to do, ahem), which is one reason why I adore him. He never blamed the curse and actually he called himself a monster; he felt great remorse for what he’d done and in fact, his guilt was like an albatross around his neck – it crushed him.
The prophecy was not what Gold thought it was going to be….He thought it meant his death, but what it really meant as the undoing of his Dark Curse. I suspected it was going to be a good thing…..and ultimately that it meant the breaking of the curse. It was always going to happen one way or another, but it happened because of everything that led up to that point. Belle’s presence completely changed things for him; HE changed…because of her love, faith and support in him. Bobby has constantly pointed out how she brings out the best in him, etc… By the time of the finale, Gold was able to sacrifice himself because of the journey he had made. His story is by far the best thing about the show, IMO.
A person who has fallen as far as Rumpel or Regina can still choose to make right decisions in the present, regardless of past actions, but anyone who knows someone that dangerous should get as far away as possible, never look back, and never give them another chance.
I haven’t experienced abuse. Just trying to identify what bothers me about the difference between fantasy drama logic and real life.
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I think it’s very telling that the writers chose the summoning of the shadow and the DarkOne dagger to be the way to kill Pan and Rumpel. this is what Bae asked Rumpel to give him so that he would trust him, and he didn’t believe him about the shadow.
BTW if he was able to summon the shadow so easily in storybrooke, why couldn’t he do it in Neverland when Bae asked him for the dagger? just summon the shadow and give him the dagger, no? or was he scared still that Pan will somehow take it from Bae?
BTW if he was able to summon the shadow so easily in storybrooke, why couldn’t he do it in Neverland when Bae asked him for the dagger? just summon the shadow and give him the dagger, no? or was he scared still that Pan will somehow take it from Bae?
For that matter, how did he do any summoning at all? With his magic dampened, how was he able to call out to his shadow? Err… actually, come to think of it, don’t people usually die if they’re separated from their shadow? What is it about the separation that kills them? Is it the shock? Pain? Or does some harm have to come to the shadow itself before it affects the body?
"Nothing is easier than to denounce the evildoer; nothing is more difficult than to understand him."
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