Captain Hook

[TheWatcher]

Here was my little rant about Hooks character development in another thread:

I would like to first say that this has NOTHING to do with anything shipping related. Beyond his feelings for Emma that is. Let’s begin

When Hook first appeared on the show, I enjoyed him. He was this fearsome pirate, sexy, funny, flirtatious, etc. He was just a great anti villain! To me, he straddled the line between good and evil, not really caring about either if they didn’t suit his needs and he was just an enjoyable character.

Now? He’s gone soft. Ever since Hook has fallen for Emma it seems he’s become all… Fluffy. He’s not the pirate he used to be. There was a time when every episode hook appeared in, he had that sexy scowl….those little sexual innuendos…. That fearsomeness. Now pouts and whines quite often and I hate it. Like dude…. BE A PIRATE! I understand he is trying to change to show Emma he can be good and be a hero and all that jazz but I hate the way his character has become. Season 2 Hook beats Season 3 with an iron fist (well iron hook :P) and I’m just getting tired of it.

Rump didn’t become soft when he lost Bae. He became stronger. Same thing with Regina. And now that Regina has RH is she soft? No, she fought even harder. This is my point exactly. Hook hasn’t become more than he was, to me at least he has lessened. He’s not as interesting, he’s not as…..unique a character anymore. He’s become this sad puppy dog. I don’t mean to say he is bland, he still has his moments. This isn’t about him not deserving love, he can love the whole planet and everyone in it for all I care. This is about how much of a woobie he is now. I love strong characters. If I were writing the show the dynamic between Hook and Emma would be loads different. Hook is….trying way to hard for her and losing himself in the process. Love can make you a new person, I get it, but it doesn’t have to make you woobie. I guess it’s just me though >> a lot of people love Hook and I do too, I just want to see him BE Hook and not… This guy. Lately I’ve just been like “Hook….*rolls eyes* Could you possibly get your (bleep) together?” Idk. I just feel Hook doesn’t have much going for himself other than Emma and I just don’t like it.  He needs to be more of a pirate. I don’t mean an evil swashbuckler. I just mean he needs to man up.

Does anyone else agree? Disagree? Comments?

[Jenna_B]

Hook is changing as a character.  Yes, he’s   a little lost right now.  Yes, he’s letting Emma bash on him right now.  And with good reason.  What is Emma’s biggest fear?  Being abandoned.  Who has abandoned her?  Pretty much everyone, except Henry.  Hook knows this, and knows he loves Emma, so if being her punching bag for a while so she can see he’s not going to abandon her as well is what she needs, then that’s what he’ll be.  That’s not going soft.  That’s doing everything in your power to show the person you love that they are going to be there, supporting and sacrificing, because that’s what it means to love.  He may seem like a puppy right now, but he’s only in the middle of his story.  And right now, by doing the exact thing he needs to do to show the person he loves that he is there supporting her makes him look weak, then so be it – but knowing and doing what he needs for that person is not weak – it’s strength.  Is it fun to watch?  Eh, I’d love for Hook to turn around and give Emma as good as he gets.  But in giving in to that desire would give him temporary satisfaction, and be much weaker than what he is doing now.

 

(Edit – I had to switch from the phone to the laptop – I hate typing on that thing!)

 

Take Rumple – now, I love the Dark One.  He is so much fun to watch.  Bobby’s amazing with him…but from a character perspective, did he backslide last ep by ‘killing’ the WW?  Yes, indeed.   Most of the things he’s done in life has the correct motivation – his son.  He even became the Dark One for his son, so he wouldn’t be a coward anymore.  However, becoming the Dark One didn’t make him more powerful – it was the most cowardly action he’s taken yet.  And doing the things he’s done to get back to his son?  Powerful, indeed.  But, would Baelfire condone it?  No.  Because that’s not who Baelfire is.  Bae would have rathered his father be seen as ‘weak’ than become the Dark One, rather Rumple lose his powers to start over in a new world than be stuck in their homeland with magic corrupting his father.  Would Neal be proud that his father killed the WW?  No.  He would be ashamed.  So…the Dark One is fantastically fun to watch and if that’s the argument, I say whatever  motivation he needs to make the Dark One deliciously fun is, I’ll sit back and enjoy the ride.  But from a character perspective, he may be able to do the most powerful of things, but he is still weakest at heart because he relies on the Dark to attempt to achieve goals you can really only achieve when you accept the Light.

 

And…now it’s time for the child to nap.  I’d have to think harder to argue any Regina points, anyway.  🙂  But there’s my 2 Hook/Rumple cents for what it’s worth!!

 

Happy OUAT DAY everyone!!!

[Cinders]

Watcher, I couldn’t agree more. In 3b, every scene with 3 or more people, Hook is standing there in the background. At first it was intriguing because we thought he was listening, devising a plan, or up to something sneaky. But, he wasn’t. He’s just there in the background, like a backup singer who never gets to sing. No longer intriguing, funny, or snarky. Yeah, I get the whole Emma thing, but is that all he’s got left to his charm and personality? Just Emma? Does he ever get to take the lead, or will he always be stuck in the background. He looks great in those leather pants, but it’s clear who’ll wear the pants in that family.
I’m glad he’ll
be more high profile tonight, but I’m truely hoping for some shenanigans from him, or that he’s got a bag of tricks somewhere. I know he will follow and protect Emma, but come on, he’s been a pirate most if his life. Surely he’s got some tricks up his sleeve somewhere. I miss the Hook we came to know and love when he was first introduced. You can be a good guy, but you don’t have to loose your mojo in the process.

[TheWatcher]

did he backslide last ep by ‘killing’ the WW? Yes, indeed

I see his backslide as being the fact that he lied to Belle after he gave her his little phony boloney speech about trust while proposing. As for killing Zelena, I see nothing wrong with it and think its debateable whether or not Bae would have seen anything wrong with it. If the witch killed Henry, both Bae and Emma and Regina would be ready to rip her throat out and feed it to her and no one would bat an eye. But thats a topic for a different thread 😛 anyway,Cinders sums it up in better words than me. Just because he us in love doesn’t mean he has to become uninteresting. He’s just been a background sailor making his :/ face every episode when he used to be a presence of a pirate. And besides, if Emma decides she wants a relationship, she doesn’t need a punching bag. Hook needs to step his game up. No puppies needed, he needs to be a pitbull. He can be in love and not be a puppy.

"I could have the giant duck as my steed!" --Daniel Radcliffe
Keeper Of Tamara's Taser , Jafar's Staff, Kitsis’s Glasses , Ariel’s Tail, Dopey's Hat , Peter Pan’s Shadow, Outfit, & Pied Cloak,Red Queen's Castle, White Rabbit's Power To World Hop, Zelena's BroomStick, & ALL MAGIC

[Hook’s Girl]

Oh Watcher, why did you have to being up this can of worms? It’s only going to cause more emotional damage and never ending arguments on this forum and on a day in which we all should be excited & enjoy our beloved show’s season finale. Now I’m forced to speak up and defend him once again. I’ve just spent the last few hours writing this so I hope it makes sense.

Without looking at him & Emma’s possible romantic relationship, here is my take (sorry about the essay):

Hook has been up against foes he knows he can’t defeat without magical backup. His character development this season has shown how vulnerable he really is but shows how he’s been able to survive for hundreds of years. He called himself “cannon fodder” in the last episode which if you think about it so is David & Robin (love the Regina’s Angels idea). All 3 are just distractions to their foes who have powerful magic so their friends with magic can defeat their foes.

Love & revenge drives Killian. It always had. He’s an antihero. His quick decisions are based on his strong emotions at the time. He lost his parents at an early age the way it appears, possible death & abandonment, and only had his brother to depend and rely on. When Liam’s stupid and stubborn decision along with Pan’s & the King’s trickery cost Liam’s his life, Killian lashed out. He was so hurt and emotionally destroyed he decided to seek revenge by becoming a pirate, a leader, and go up against the King. A loose cannon. I’m sure that just becoming a pirate wasn’t easy. He probably had a lot of lessons to learn and to figure out how he could juggle being honorable, a man with a code, yet be a thief & a liar so he could live with himself. He learned to rely only on himself and became a fearless, ruthless leader to his crew, gaining a strong reputation. Reputation was everything to a man back in the 1600’s to 1800’s. He had nothing to loose and everything to gain. Would love to see a scene between the time he became a pirate till the time he met Milah.

When Hook met Milah, Milah saw him as a way out of her loveless marriage. She was stuck. Instead if just telling Rumple she was leaving him, she took the coward’s way out and made it look like Kilian and his crew kidnaped her. Killian probably saw Milah as a flicker of hope & a chance at a happy ending. I bet his years with Milah were the happiest he ever had up to that point. I wonder what he was like, pirate wise during those years. Was he still seeking revenge against the King, destroying ships and taking no quarters, or was he just out to have fun and get rich, treasure hunting. When did his seek for revenge against the King end? I liked how his crew respected and listened to Milah. Having a woman aboard a pirate ship was rare, unless the woman was just a wench.

Now when Hook lost Milah suddenly he made a rash decision to seek revenge once again. Loosing his hand didn’t help either, the feeling of being less of a man, is a powerful emotion. It ended up consuming him, and going back to NL was a huge risk. He wanted longevity for his life, he knew that Pan was there, but didn’t realize that Pan was a demon vs just a tricky little boy. Hook was no match against Pan and he learned that the hard way over 300 years. Hook lost his freedom, something he had given to his crew when he originally became a pirate. If he wanted to survive and find a way out of NL to finish his revenge, he had to learn to play by Pan’s rules. He ended up working for Pan (wish we knew what he did for Pan) and managed to strike a deal (wish we knew what that was too) with him to get out NL. Pan was the boss and had very powerful magic. He knew how to play on one’s vulnerabilities. He probably mentally tortured Hook for hundreds of years using, Hook’s past mistakes and loss to against him. In NL, there is no future, no movement of time to allow one to heal. Hook probably had to live with the thoughts of Liam’s & Milah’s deaths, over and over and over again. Never being allowed to move on. He had no love in his life, just the respect of his crew and possibly Tink. Hook’s desire of revenge for Milah is what kept him alive and not just give up and kill himself, to end the torture. The ending of Hook’s life in NL could have been a Les Mis story, but thanks to Adam & Eddy it became so much more.

Hook was half crazy & suicidal when he found his way out of NL and continued to seek his revenge. But there is a snag, He came into the FTL world now around 300 years later. Time had moved forward without him. Everything has changed, kingdoms & realms changed or gone. If he had friends and allies before NL, they were all dead. But Hook was free to do what he wanted again, to play by his own rules, to use his charms to get what he wanted, which was of course revenge or die trying. The healing process of his past could begin and he could move forward with his life. Love & friendship wasn’t in the picture though. He’s not the best version of himself with out love & friendship, like Tink was trying to tell Regina. He was not happy and was just plain miserable.

When he met Regina & Cora, once again he was working with those who had powerful magic and could kill him with a flick of their wrist. So he now had to play by their rules. In a way he became frenemies with Cora. He had to prove to them that he was worth having around. He did that again in SB with Cora & Regina and they both betrayed him for it. When he met Emma & her crew in EF, that gave him a flicker of hope to having good allies or friendship once again. To become truely useful, not just someone’s toy. He let Emma win the sword fight so she & Snow could get back home, founding out that Emma had magic in the process, a bonus in a possible new ally.

Once in SB, Cora, Regina, Greg & Tamara used Hook to get what they wanted with the promise of helping him seek his revenge on Rumple, which wasn’t fulfilled. Hook had to play by their rules again, so he continued his fearless, ruthless pirate act. Hook ended up figuring out how to go after Rumple and “kill” him on his own, but it wasn’t rewarding. He felt empty and abandoned. He had no one to look after him, to share his joy with. He was missing love & freindship. In 2×22, he got his first chance to be really be useful to prove he was worth having around by helping David seek out the magic beans. Emma decided to give him a chance at being apart of something to remain alone. But he almost blew it by taking the bean and sailing away from the danger. When he looked back on his life again and remembered what he lost, how he could make amends, and what he could now gain, he turned around.

He’s been offering his help & services over and over ever since, gaining friendship and trust in the process. He likes feeling useful and having the freedom to do so, a trait he was born with. He’s not some one’s toy now although at times it seems like he’s been used by the good guys.

When they went back to NL, Hook knew he couldn’t defeat Pan, but this time he had allies with magic who possibly could in order to get Henry. He knew the island, the vegetation, the lost boys, the caves, Tink, and Pan’s games. He proved to be really useful in a fight, cannon fodder, and ended up a turning into one of the heroes.

We saw how Hook was able to be fearless and ruthless once again when it came to Blackbeard, who has no magic. They were on the same playing field and Hook used his wit, smarts about his ship & brawn to defeat Blackbeard. He didn’t have to worry about the possiblitly of just being knocked out by a flick of someone’s wrist. Hook’s confidence & bravery shined in that scene with BB. He didn’t have anything to loose. Win back his beloved ship, his home, and solidify his reputation once again or die trying (to put himself out his misery – suicidal). He tried so hard to go back to the man he was before meeting the Charming’s, but he couldn’t. He changed too much to ever go back. He had allowed love & friendship to enter his heart and didn’t want to give that up. He had gained trust & a new reputation which are powerful resources to have.

Now when it comes to Zelena. Hook has no past knowledge of this wicked witch, not even a story reference. Once again he’s up against someone with powerful magic and he has no idea how to defeat her. Zelena said so herself that Hook was out of his depth. Hook, David & Robin all were at a disadvantage against her. All they could do was help Emma, Regina and by extension, Belle, to protect Snow, cannon fodder once again. When he & Emma were about to open the cellar he suggested calling for magical backup, Regina. You could tell he didn’t think they could win with just their swords and guns and nothing else to protect them for whatever could have come out of that cellar.

He became Henry’s protector which required a lot of trust from Emma & crew to become so. But once again a villain got to Hook and tried to use him for their dirty work, but this time he was unwillingly. He gained so much in his life at that point and didn’t want to lose it. Hook did everything he could to prevent Zelena’s bidding to play out, despite his curse. I would be a bit freaked out too if someone set a curse on me. He risked his life, love, and friendship to prevent Zelana from hurting Henry and Henry’s family. In the diner scene, Hook was seen reading a book. I wonder if it was a book on curses or a book on modern technologies. Zelena was going to make sure Hook’s curse would play out no matter what he did to stop it – magic vs no magic. Even if he didn’t go with Emma in the last episode to find Zelena would have just transported him to the tank of water to drown him in front of Emma, like she transported Henry to her cluches. In the barn scene, Hook, Emma & Robin were there to back up Regina and to help David get his boy back, cannon fodder. The plan worked.

Now I hope in tonight’s finale we’ll see another side of Hook. How he can combine what he has learned from taking on the past foes and use it to what is to come, a new challenge. Maybe taking on someone or someone’s who aren’t magical more on his level. He’s becoming the best version of himself. A combination of the naval officer and the pirate. Using his wit, charm, fearlessness, strength, smarts, love, trust & friendship to his advantage. 🙂

Nothing is impossible on OUAT. Everything has a way of repeating itself. Keeper of the Keeper tread: https://oncepodcast.com/forums/topic/official-keeper-thread-3/#post-217924

[TheWatcher]

Oh Watcher, why did you have to being up this can of worms? It’s only going to cause more emotional damage and never ending arguments on this forum and on a day in which we all should be excited & enjoy our beloved show’s season finale.

No need for arguments, I only asked to get other opinions about whether or not they liked where his character was going as the show has progressed. I didn’t mean to step on toes, just stating my view on the matter. What else is a character discussion for? :)I know some times things can get a bit heated here over certain subjects and certain ships and certain characters but I don’t think that means that discussing the character should be off limits. This is all in good fun, guys. We are all Oncers here 🙂
That being said, HooksGirl, you present an interesting point…well points. I too hope that in to nights finale, we get to see Hook be that clever witty guy he is…. And not just a background singer. In that aspect I look forward to the episode even if I’m not excited for the episode in general (the whole time travel thing just isn’t as captivating as I thought it would be for some reason. I’ve never been a fan of time travel related things). So yes, tonight I hope Hook is a LOT more than what he has been in the last fee EPs of S3. At the end of the day, my point is I want Hook to be a hero. I want him to fight for Emma and for the side of goodness and clearly he is doing that. I just don’t want him to fade into the background. I can see that others disagree with me, about him being a woobie, a puppy, or a background person now, and I respect that, we all see things differently, we all have our opinions. Thats just mine *holds up hands and backs away*

"I could have the giant duck as my steed!" --Daniel Radcliffe
Keeper Of Tamara's Taser , Jafar's Staff, Kitsis’s Glasses , Ariel’s Tail, Dopey's Hat , Peter Pan’s Shadow, Outfit, & Pied Cloak,Red Queen's Castle, White Rabbit's Power To World Hop, Zelena's BroomStick, & ALL MAGIC

[Hook’s Girl]

I Agree, Watcher. I want Hook to fight and not become someone just hanging out in the background. I’m just really protective of Hook. I see so much hate towards him on this site then any other character, and I wish it would just stop. Just hoped that my essay shed some light on his state of mind and his growth. 🙂

Nothing is impossible on OUAT. Everything has a way of repeating itself. Keeper of the Keeper tread: https://oncepodcast.com/forums/topic/official-keeper-thread-3/#post-217924

[Leny Sol]

I love Hook !!!

 

A man who is deovted to Emma, and such a fighter all his life!

Snowing + Captain Swan

[RumplesGirl]

It seems like our Nealfire conversation is wrapping up and we have one more main character to tackle before maybe doing some minor ones: Killian Jones/Captain Hook.

Like Neal, Hook is a controversial figure so I want to start off with the same caveat that I did in the Neal thread. Please don’t turn this into a full on shipping debate. This isn’t a justification of CaptainSwan or of SwanFire. We have threads for those and they are both lovely. You can, of course, talk about Emma, Neal, Rumple, Milah, ect in relation to Hook, but let’s try to not make this a shipping war.

To get us started, maybe some soft ball questions.

1) Has Hook let go of the Captain Hook persona? Can he ever? And if he hasn’t, what does that mean for the future of his character?

2) What is Hook’s fatal flaw?

3) Hook often talks about living with “good form.” How does Hook define good form and do you agree with it? And has Hook lived by good form, do you think?

"He was a lot of things to me" "The only conclusion was love"

[Jenna_B]

My pirate!  (And speaking of when we get to secondary characters, might I suggest Milah?  I’d love to hear people’s thoughts about her…they’re surprisingly varied when we discussed it in the CS thread…anyway back to topic)

1) Has Hook let go of the Captain Hook persona? Can he ever? And if he hasn’t, what does that mean for the future of his character?
In a way, yes, he has let go of Hook.  But I don’t see a problem with that, because a persona was exactly what Captain Hook was.  Killian Jones adopted it after his first huge loss, the death of his brother.  It was his first act of rebellion.  The character of Hook was fine tuned over the years, and then he met Milah.  I suspect Milah wouldn’t have thought much of Killian Jones and probably hero worshipped Hook a bit, which only served to encourage the character, and her death – and Hook’s new obsession with revenge, made the character completely take the place of Killian Jones.
I think the real ‘person’ is a combination of the villainous Captain Hook and the naive Lieutenant Killian Jones, and we’re seeing him work on trying to figure out who, exactly, he is.  I think we’ll see him focusing on establishing lasting relationships with a number of characters, in addition to Emma, and trying to be the man of honor he once percieved himself to be.   If he does backslide – and I think he’s completely capable of it, like all of our characters, especially the ‘redeemed villains’, it’ll because a threat presents itself.  I imagine if something/someone were to threaten the people he loves and the life he’s trying to establish with them, it will be easy for him to channel Hook and become quite fierce in attempting to protect them.
2) What is Hook’s fatal flaw?
I think his fatal flaw is not really understanding who he is and who he wants to be.  And because of it, he can make and then devote himself to incredibly rash decisions.  He also tends to live on the ends of the spectrum, and spend very little time in the middle and can be very black or white.  He loses his brother – so he does a total 180 and becomes a pirate.  He loses Milah and spends 300 years in search of revenge.  Living, and making decisions like is what made him so utterly selfish and unable to make real connections with others when we first met him.
3) Hook often talks about living with “good form.” How does Hook define good form and do you agree with it? And has Hook lived by good form, do you think?
Haha, I don’t know how to describe it!  I think ‘good form’ is at it’s most basic, a set of rules taught to him while training as an officer.  I think of books about etiquette and morals that existed circa late-1700s in some ways…it’s ok to challenge another to a duel, but it has to be a fair fight – at least weapons-wise.  Goals must be met by honest, not deceitful methods…and so on.  Has he always lived with ‘good form’?  Yeah, no.  It was a bunch of talk.  Is he trying to truly understand that concept and live with ‘good form’ now?  Yes.

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