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People don’t need to be physically addicted to abuse a substance – sadly common misunderstanding. There are different stages of addiction: Experimentation, regular use, abuse/risky behavior, dependency. In other words, particular if it comes to alcohol a lot more people have problems with it than most of us notice or acknowledge. I am not sure what they are doing though with Hook here. Is it for jokes, the pirate trope (they drink rum don’t they) or as character issue – I am not sure. It could make sense, that he began getting lost in alcohol at times to numb the pain of losing Milah, and it became a habit to hit the bottle once in a while, as much as taking a sip has become a ritual of reassurance, that he is a pirate and doesn’t care much anyway. To me there are not little signs, Hook is abusing alcohol – but I am not so sure if the writers actually share that view.
I want to partially agree with you here. That, yes as a society people have more problems with alcohol that they want to admit, but I think to say Hook is ‘abusing’ alcohol is too extreme. I don’t see it as abusing, I see it as him using alcohol as any normal person would – and this is the point where it become grey in terms of what a ‘normal’ person perceives as abuse or just acceptable consumption.
Yes, he takes a belt from his flask every now and then, but most of the time he’s in company and in celebration/commiseration/solidarity. Robin and Charming have also admitted to having hidden flasks to take a cheeky quiet nip from too. Somehow to me, Charming’s flask hiding is more concerning, as during Neverland he used to wince every time he took a nip from Hook’s flask, but he didn’t bat an eyelid later on – insinuating he’s become used to the taste and therefore has been drinking a lot!
The main difference I can see is that Hook carries his flask with him. Which somehow makes it worse because he has easy access to it? It’s a crutch? We have seen him use his rum medicinally as well (sterilising Emma’s hand, rousing Charming from unconsciousness) so he’s not too adverse to ‘wasting’ it. In these instances his flask can be classified as a tool of the trade, that he needs it for wounds (and he used to get injured a lot!) or literal painkilling – he probably doesn’t know about paracetamol – so it makes sense to carry it around.
Anyway, I just think it’s ‘he a pirate and pirates like rum’ but no worse than that.
[adrotate group="5"]If one is to engage with the primordial forces of darkness, one must expect a little social awkwardness
While rewatching Heroes and Villains, I realized something in this scene:
At around 1:25 we get a good look at Hook’s heart and it has a few black spots in the center. I thought I’d drop this here for information purposes.
Just found this old essay about OUAT’s Hook
http://www.onceuponafans.com/hook-a-return-to-romance
All magic comes with a price!
Keeper of FelixI’m new to these forums, so forgive me if I’m wrong but is this discussion still “going on”? Or has it been moved elsewhere, or does no one want to actually talk about Hook anymore?
Maybe I’m of the unpopular opinion here but I have and do enjoy this character immensely. I’ve binged through seasons 4 and 5 the last few weeks and now that I am caught up I think I can actually say Hook is my favorite character. I’ve loved him from the very beginning. It seems a lot of people want to put him in either the Hero or Villain category and I just don’t understand why? He’s perfect being the morally grey character who wants to be good but also wants to give in to his pirate nature. To me, the fact that he went to an abandoned boy, to ‘failure’ as a young man, then to Naval officer, then to heinous pirate out for revenge, to lovestruck man struggling to find where he fits in a world that seems to draw a hard line between good and bad fascinating.
Maybe I’m out of line in my assessment and have been watching the show too quickly. I don’t go back and rewatch and over analyze things, but I think Hook is acharacter the show needs in order to not be stale in characterizations. He struggles the way a normal person would struggle. Nothing is strictly good or evil with him and I hope it stays that way. A lot of season 5 bothered/bored me but his struggle kept me viewing. Is there anyone still around on this forum who still shared this opinion, or has everyone jumped off the Jolly Roger?
We're all just stories in the end.
I’m new to these forums, so forgive me if I’m wrong but is this discussion still “going on”? Or has it been moved elsewhere, or does no one want to actually talk about Hook anymore?
First, welcome!
These threads are always open for conversation but defintely go through big lulls (and right now we’re in the middle of a big hiatus in general lol) but always welcome comments and thoughts.
I don’t think you’re necessarily “wrong” in you analysis or that you need to go back and rewatch–but I also think that media analysis is hugely subjective and that everyone is entitled to their own beliefs and views. The problem you seem to have stumbled upon is that Hook is easily–EASILY–the most polarizing character on this show for the fandom. And five seasons in, no one is really going to change their mind on him (hence the big lulls in conversation in threads like this one–once everyone has their say, that’s it. Debate and thoughtful conversation turn to fighting all too easy in this fandom…and again, hiatus time)
Is Hook morally grey? Sure. But so is every single character on this show so I don’t think he’s some sort of singular entity in that regard. Even the heroes are now grey and sketchy (the main heroes stole a baby after all…) and the villains get huge arc-long sob stories to elicit sympathy and make them easily redeemable by complicating their most treacherous acts.
I personally believe that one of the biggest problems with Hook is that the writers want to have their cake and eat it too–they want him to be the rogue pirate who falls into all manners of cliches (the rum drinking, the womanizing, the savvy devil may care bad boy in black leather) and they also want him to be a leading heartthrob. It’s might be possible to be both but it doesn’t help when most of his misdeeds (up to and including murder) are handwaved away through a plot device, whitewashed by exposition of other characters (mostly Emma), or most egregiously, forgotten altogether (Merlin-murder, for instance). It leads to audience members reading him in stark colors (reformed former bad boy OR unrepentant villain) based–oh—a whole host of things like age, experiences, education, ect.
"He was a lot of things to me" "The only conclusion was love"I’m new to these forums, so forgive me if I’m wrong but is this discussion still “going on”? Or has it been moved elsewhere, or does no one want to actually talk about Hook anymore?
It’s great to revive old threads and I’d like to talk about Hook!
Maybe I’m out of line in my assessment and have been watching the show too quickly.
You’re not out of line. Everyone has a different interpretation of Hook. My own evolved as the show went along.
I personally believe that one of the biggest problems with Hook is that the writers want to have their cake and eat it too–they want him to be the rogue pirate who falls into all manners of cliches (the rum drinking, the womanizing, the savvy devil may care bad boy in black leather) and they also want him to be a leading heartthrob. It’s might be possible to be both but it doesn’t help when most of his misdeeds (up to and including murder) are handwaved away through a plot device, whitewashed by exposition of other characters (mostly Emma), or most egregiously, forgotten altogether (Merlin-murder, for instance).
THIS is my problem with Hook. They want to keep the bad boy alive to keep Hook interesting. Otherwise, he comes across as a lovesick puppy. But it’s very difficult to reconcile the pirate with a man worthy of dating Emma; Emma who is the main character, the embodiment of True Love and a symbol of strong, independent womanhood. Sure she’s not perfect herself, but personally, I don’t want her with a man who boasts of “soiling” women. There’s imperfect and then there’s just plain gross.
Now, I think Hook could have been a lot more likeable and his relationship with Emma far more palatable if he’d been written properly since S3. His transformation from villain to supposed good guy seemed to happen mostly offscreen. By the time he returned in 3B, it seemed like the transformation was complete, but we didn’t get to see any of it. The audience finds it far easier to accept something if they get to SEE it unfolding. But then it got worse. Hook’s actions in ‘The Apprentice’ seemed to indicate that his darkness was very much present and just waiting for an excuse to be let out. My interpretation was that he wasn’t really transformed – he’d simply repressed his villainous side. He was fooling everyone, including himself into believing that he’d changed. The only thing keeping him from being nasty was his love for Emma. Then his ‘Dark One’ story arc seemed to confirm this interpretation. He plunged head first into the darkness, really embracing it. Rumple had always been shown to be responsible for his actions, and Emma hardly did anything bad as the Dark One, so I could only assume that Hook was deliberately being horrible. Emma’s betrayal of him unleased his evil side. He did have a change of heart, but that could not erase all that he’d done. Hook himself seemed to realise this, but as always, his bad behaviour was handwaved away. On top of that, the writers seemed to indicate that far from being held accountable, Hook was to get, in fact he DESERVED all the good things in life – True Love with Emma, resurrection. With Hook, it seems like there’s a huge discrepancy between what we’re shown and what we’re being told.
Now that S5 is over, and the writers think they have addressed the darkness in him, I’m not sure how much character development is left for Hook. His happy ending is obviously supposed to be marrying Emma and it seems like he’s almost there.
Here’s an interesting essay on OUAT’s character development. It articulates what many of us have been complaining about for a while. There’s sections on Belle and Hook that are spot on.
http://www.onceuponafans.com/news/the-evolution-of-character-underdevelopment-on-once-upon-a-time
Yay! A Hook person.
Maybe I’m of the unpopular opinion here but I have and do enjoy this character immensely. I’ve binged through seasons 4 and 5 the last few weeks and now that I am caught up I think I can actually say Hook is my favorite character. I’ve loved him from the very beginning. It seems a lot of people want to put him in either the Hero or Villain category and I just don’t understand why? He’s perfect being the morally grey character who wants to be good but also wants to give in to his pirate nature. To me, the fact that he went to an abandoned boy, to ‘failure’ as a young man, then to Naval officer, then to heinous pirate out for revenge, to lovestruck man struggling to find where he fits in a world that seems to draw a hard line between good and bad fascinating.
I think a lot of what you say here is accurate. He is morally grey and so I do find many people get upset with him when he does something bad. But there’s a reason for that. These anti-Hook fans would be fine when Hook slips up if he wasn’t dating Emma. The other problem is Neal. As a fan of the show, apparently you can’t be a fan of both Hook, and Neal. I happen to be one of the few. See, many people enjoyed Hook when Neal was still around. But then when he died, Hook swooped in with Emma, and now he gets compared to Neal. Neal was not the morally grey character Hook is, and he always did the right thing. So his relationship with Emma was very different than Hook’s is. Hook has struggled. Deep down, he may not be a great person, but he wants to be. He wants to change for Emma. But again, when he slips up, he gets crap for it. And when he does something good, it gets downplayed.
Newsflash to everyone: Emma is allowed to date a morally grey character. If she wants to date someone who makes bad choices sometimes, that’s her decision and clearly she has been spending too much time with Belle. But Rumple could be considered morally grey too but he doesn’t get the criticism that Hook does because people have just accepted that he’s a bad person now. So because Hook is trying to be good for the Savior, he gets criticized more. I do think it is unfair. But as you said, his struggle to do the right thing remains interesting, at least for me. Because even though most characters have done some bad things on the show, Hook really is the only legit grey character anymore. Rumple is full on evil, Snow and Charming did one bad thing in the past but that’s it, and it was manipulated by the author anyway. They are as good as it gets. Regina has struggled, but has not wavered to the dark side. She is good. Emma fought darkness and won. And now even Zelena is good after killing Hades. So while some characters have become bland and stale and one note, that’s definitely not something you can say about Hook. He has flaws. He maybe doesn’t give enough support and credit towards others who have helped him. He thirst for revenge clearly still lurks down deep as illustrated by the darkness bringing it out of him. And when put on the spot, we still aren’t completely sure if he would save his own skin, or do the noble thing and help others. I think it is clear he would do anything for Emma, and was willing to move on to let her live her life, but it remains unclear if he would treat others the same as he treats Emma. For me, this character needs to be tested. Have him make a decision that could really hurt him, but help Charming or Snow or Regina or even better, Rumple. That would be a huge step for his character. There is still a part of me that thinks he would still save his skin and lie to Emma about it. But that uncertainty is precisely why he’s still an interesting part of the show.
And I do think if we got as much screen time as Regina gets with her inner struggle, as we did with Hook, the transition for him would feel more organic. But since season 3, we haven’t delved into his psyche much. The darkness took over, and then he died. But I would like to see his inner struggles like Regina. Perhaps it would make him more sympathetic when he does make the wrong decision.
Okay, a lot of what you say is such a broad generalization based on only the most recent discussions in a fandom that has never been more divided that, I’m sorry, I need to correct/make a case for some things here.
But there’s a reason for that. These anti-Hook fans would be fine when Hook slips up if he wasn’t dating Emma.
Not even the tiniest bit true. I (and actually a great portion of the people who continue to dislike Hook) have disliked Hook from the moment I met him and we saw his first few episodes. I found him neither compelling nor overly interesting. I had problems with him from a feminist standpoint, from a media standpoint, and from a rape culture standpoint–the caveat being that those criticisms are only getting worse as the show goes on and the show adds more story to him. All of this was from long before Emma and Neal re-met in Manhattan and certainly long before Hook and Emma formed a romantic relationship. I have, in the past, given ample reasoning for why I read Hook the way I do and maybe only the smallest part of it stems from being Pro-SF/Pro-Neal.
There is a through-line in your reasoning that because I ship something else or enjoyed another character more the criticisms I and others have against Hook/CS are, ispo facto, null and void and that they can’t possibly hold any relevance/weight because of something I just happen ship. It’s a unique frustration that any well thought out argument I, a well educated critical analyst, may have is instantly dismissed as the anger of an upset shipper.
See, many people enjoyed Hook when Neal was still around
Again, no. If you want evidence go back through this forum in season 2-3A/3B. The divide was here long before Neal died; it wasn’t just the death of Neal that spurred anger towards Captain Hook.
Newsflash to everyone: Emma is allowed to date a morally grey character.
Emma can date whomever the heck she wants–Hook, Regina, Random Peasant #45621. I don’t really care who she dates anymore; I care about the message this TV show is sending out when the morally grey character does straight up bad things (like murder) and never gets taken to task for it all while the relationship in question is being lauded as the greatest love story of the ages. It’s disturbing. They want to redeem Hook and put him with Emma? Fine. That’s their choice; but it means the writers have to openly acknowledge the bad things he’s done and not have it whitewahsed through exposition of one character (Emma, see for instance episode 3×15) or have it forgotten altogether. You cannot deny that those two things have been done.
Conversely to this, if the writers ARE going to whitewash/exposition away Hook’s ill deeds in order to service their romantic story then the same holds that they must be willing to do the same for other equally morally grey characters–but they don’t do that. There’s an inequality here.
But Rumple could be considered morally grey too but he doesn’t get the criticism that Hook does because people have just accepted that he’s a bad person now.
Malarkey. Come on. You know as well as I that some of the most active threads of this past year have been about Rumple and whether or not he’s redeemable, good or bad, light or dark, whether his relationship with Belle is worth saving and whether or not his actions have any sort of organic reasoning that fits with 5 years worth of story. Don’t make it out that there hasn’t been tons of Rumple criticism in this fandom, just in the past two years alone (this is to say nothing of the way many fans hated him right off the bat because of his manipulation of the Charmings)
"He was a lot of things to me" "The only conclusion was love"
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