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Ahh, let me first start by saying I was making general comments. I was not specifically saying how people on here felt about Hook when he first was introduced. I am talking about other forums, and friends that I have who watch the show. And I have found, that those who really liked Neal, and really liked Swanfire, do not like Hook. Whether that is simply coincidence, I do not know. But for me, it has been a pattern that I cannot overlook. Fans of Swanfire may say they hate specific things about Hook, and that’s why they hate him, but it is quite interesting to me that a majority of the haters of Hook, were Swanfire fans.
Not even the tiniest bit true. I (and actually a great portion of the people who continue to dislike Hook) have disliked Hook from the moment I met him and we saw his first few episodes. I found him neither compelling nor overly interesting. I had problems with him from a feminist standpoint, from a media standpoint, and from a rape culture standpoint–the caveat being that those criticisms are only getting worse as the show goes on and the show adds more story to him.
If you truly did not find Hook’s introduction to the show compelling, or the very least, a little interesting, then that is truly odd to me. Everyone has tastes, but he was such a different character that the show didn’t have. It felt new and like a breathe of fresh air. Now, that being said, I understand why you would personally have issues with his behavior from a feminist standpoint, and I agree, his actions go unpunished and get swept under the rug too often. But out of the gate, I feel like a lot of people, even Swanfire fans, thought Hook was interesting. It was when he started going after Emma and interfering with Neal’s intentions that more Swanfire fans really started to really hate him. Is that a coincidence? Maybe. But yes, I am generalizing here. It is just my own experiences with friends and family and other forums that I have had. And it makes sense. Why would I support a character who is trying to ruin a ship that I support?
There is a through-line in your reasoning that because I ship something else or enjoyed another character more the criticisms I and others have against Hook/CS are, ispo facto, null and void and that they can’t possibly hold any relevance/weight because of something I just happen ship. It’s a unique frustration that any well thought out argument I, a well educated critical analyst, may have is instantly dismissed as the anger of an upset shipper.
I don’t believe I ever said your opinions were null and void. I simply said broadly that I’ve found a lot of Swanfire fans criticize Hook more than others on the show because he’s with Emma. I’m not saying you specifically. You know I never dismiss your opinions on here.
Emma can date whomever the heck she wants–Hook, Regina, Random Peasant #45621. I don’t really care who she dates anymore; I care about the message this TV show is sending out when the morally grey character does straight up bad things (like murder) and never gets taken to task for it all while the relationship in question is being lauded as the greatest love story of the ages. It’s disturbing. They want to redeem Hook and put him with Emma? Fine. That’s their choice; but it means the writers have to openly acknowledge the bad things he’s done and not have it whitewahsed through exposition of one character (Emma, see for instance episode 3×15) or have it forgotten altogether. You cannot deny that those two things have been done.
This I agree with. Perhaps fans are so critical of Hook when he slips up because the writers make it so easy to forget. It’s like fans are overcompensating for the writers who seem to let Hook off easy at times.
Malarkey. Come on. You know as well as I that some of the most active threads of this past year have been about Rumple and whether or not he’s redeemable, good or bad, light or dark, whether his relationship with Belle is worth saving and whether or not his actions have any sort of organic reasoning that fits with 5 years worth of story. Don’t make it out that there hasn’t been tons of Rumple criticism in this fandom, just in the past two years alone (this is to say nothing of the way many fans hated him right off the bat because of his manipulation of the Charmings)
Criticism and discussion, yes. Whether he is redeemable, yes. Whether his love for Belle will ever outweigh his thirst for power, yes. But with Hook it’s more like attacking on here. When Rumple does something bad, people on here tend to try and make excuses for him, or try and say well he’s always been this way, he’s torn and he wants to have both power and love. And it’s an actual debate because the fandom legitimately is divided on whether he is a morally grey character anymore, or of he truly is an evil villain. With Hook, it’s never about the good things he does on here. Ever. It gets downplayed massively. And we don’t talk about how grey he is and have debates about his character like we do with Rumple. Everyone thinks he is trash. When he gives into the darkness and makes a bad mistake, he gets slammed. No excuses made, no debate, no trying to defend his actions or what he’s feeling. I have tried, and failed on here. We don’t talk about the good things he’s done, and then the bad things and compare and try and see the type of person he truly is. To Swanfire fans (or at least many I have interacted with) he is garbage and is not treated like a grey character at all when in fact he is the best example of it on the show right now.
[adrotate group="5"]I openly admit that I am not Hook’s biggest fan (though he is no longer my least favourite of the regulars: that honour goes to Henry with Emma in second place) however, I do think Hook had the potential to be one of the most memorable characters on the show (much like Spike from Buffy) but has suffered from inconsistency and rushed (and hypocritical) writing.
Hook’s introduction did not put him in a favourable light. He was shown to be a bully who picked on those weaker than him eg pre-dark one Rumple, but he also continued this streak for a good decade eg dark one Rumple who he thought was a lowly beggar.
Tallahassee was more favourable to Hook, it showed his fun side and his sense of humour whilst he was climbing the beanstalk with Emma. It is also probably the only episode where I can honestly say I liked Hook. He definitely had chemistry with Emma, not necessarily romantic chemistry, but there was definitely chemistry.
Issues began to arise with Hook when he went after Belle. First in the flashback where he hits her so hard and knocks her unconscious just because she can’t help him then is about to kill her until Regina stepped in. Then the entirety of the Outsider where he shoots Belle over the town line so she’ll lose her memories just because he can’t hurt Rumple physically. At no point did Hook treat Belle as an actual person.
At the end of season 2, Hook stole the magic bean that was meant to be an escape from a crumbling Storybrooke. I actually don’t fault him on this and will list this as one of the positive things he’s done because it meant the Charmings had to help save the town instead of just bailing and leaving the likes of RumBelle, Hansel and Gretel, Jefferson and Grace, etc to die. The “heroes” would’ve left children to die if it wasn’t for Hook.
Going from season 2 into season 3, things were going well for Hook. He’d put his vendetta against Rumple to one side in order to help Henry. He was doing this for Baelfire etc etc. Then CS reared its ugly head and Hook’s character development went out the window.
To cut a long story short, ever since season 3 Hook has been vering between to plotlines: CS and Revenge on Rumple. The problem is though, the two plotlines can’t work together. Either Hook has finaly let go of Milah thus enabling him to move on with Emma in which case he has no need to go after Rumple anymore, or Hook is still so cut up over Milah which is why he continues to antagonise Rumple that he can’t genuinely move on until he learns to let go of his revenge. He can’t have both because it’s contradictory but that’s what the writers seem to be doing and it just doesn’t work.
Hook deliberately antagonises Rumple in 4A by blackmailing him, yet cries foul when Rumple gets the upper hand. He referred to Milah, the great love of his life who he’d spent centries trying to avenge, as “soiled”. As dark one Hook, he was just vile. Yet he suffers no consequences or even acknowledgement of his actions. As DO Hook, either has has to be held accountable for his actions like Rumple is, or if Hook is given a free pass because of the “darkness” then RUmple needs to be given a free pass as well otherwise it’s double standards.
Hook has had positive moments. His scene in the library in 4B with Belle where he tells her that despite what Rumple did, RUmple did genuinely love her was one of my favourite moments of that episode. Hook didn’t have to say that but he did because it was the right thing to do even if it didn’t gain him anything. Hook’s best scenes are with Charming and Charming alone because Charming doesn’t take any of his crap and Hook respects that.
As has been pointed out, it seems a lot of Hook’s character development happens off screen but because we don’t see it, it looks like he’s just done a complete 180 for no reason other than to get in Emma’s pants.
CS is not good for either Emma or Hook, at least not how it is currently being written. The writers need to give Hook more scenes with other character who aren’t Emma otherwise it makes him look obsessive.
All magic comes with a price!
Keeper of FelixI want to start off by saying that at one point Rumple was my favorite character. I liked every character and pretty much still do, but Rumple I haven’t liked in a long long long time, which is probably a reason why I disagree with a lot of the anti Hook rhetoric. I actually think it’s this feud that divides the fans more so than CS vs SF.
Hook’s introduction did not put him in a favourable light. He was shown to be a bully who picked on those weaker than him eg pre-dark one Rumple, but he also continued this streak for a good decade eg dark one Rumple who he thought was a lowly beggar.
Personally I loved that he was introduced as someone who knew Rumple before he became the dark one and was seen as a rival to him. Don’t forget that later on, he admitted that we was in the wrong in this situation. He even stated that in this instance Rumple was the hero and Hook was the villain. Hook was introduced at a time I was beginning to lose interest in the show and his arrival is pretty much all that kept me watching until season 4, at which point I got tired of the Frozen storyline and just caught up on within the last couple of weeks.
I don’t like Rumpelstiltskin so I am very bias there. I don’t like his story, I don’t like how he is written, I don’t like his relationship with Belle. I don’t like a single thing about him. Which is a shame because he was once my favorite character. <del>I have an entire rant about him and how the writers pretty much destroyed my favorite Disney movie by making him the Beast. It kind of disgusts me actually.</del> My feelings are a little too intense to offer actual discussion so I will try not to speak too much about him.
Issues began to arise with Hook when he went after Belle. First in the flashback where he hits her so hard and knocks her unconscious just because she can’t help him then is about to kill her until Regina stepped in. Then the entirety of the Outsider where he shoots Belle over the town line so she’ll lose her memories just because he can’t hurt Rumple physically. At no point did Hook treat Belle as an actual person.
Forgive me, because it has been a very long time since I have seen those episodes so my memory is not the best on that. I do want to mention that Belle is one of my favorite characters, actually I adore pretty much every character they have introduced on this show besides the character-not-to-be-named. I was also very upset at the time for his treatment of Belle. I was angry, and I didn’t want to like Hook at the time, but at the same time, in a twisted way I understood why he was doing it and felt it was fitting with who Hook was and, honestly, who he still is in a way. He spent centuries trying to find the Dark Ones weekness to get his revenge. It consumed him and there was his opportunity to hurt the Dark One the way the Dark One had hurt him. This had because Hook’s entire life purpose so I understand why he did it.
Was it wrong? Yes. Is this one of his biggest flaws? Yes. But it’s part of the reason I like to watch Hook’s scenes. I also kinda want Belle and Hook to team up and destroy character-who-shall-not-be-named but I digress…
Going from season 2 into season 3, things were going well for Hook. He’d put his vendetta against Rumple to one side in order to help Henry. He was doing this for Baelfire etc etc. Then CS reared its ugly head and Hook’s character development went out the window. To cut a long story short, ever since season 3 Hook has been vering between to plotlines: CS and Revenge on Rumple. The problem is though, the two plotlines can’t work together. Either Hook has finaly let go of Milah thus enabling him to move on with Emma in which case he has no need to go after Rumple anymore, or Hook is still so cut up over Milah which is why he continues to antagonise Rumple that he can’t genuinely move on until he learns to let go of his revenge. He can’t have both because it’s contradictory but that’s what the writers seem to be doing and it just doesn’t work.
I certainly think that Hook can hold his grudge against said character and be in love with Emma. Hook and Milah didn’t move on from each other. Milah was taken from Hook by the Dark One-who murdered his son’s mother in front of the man who actually loved her by the way. Did I mention I’m not fond of that character? Hehe!
Obviously from my screen name I ship CS. Not going to lie, I really liked Neal and would have loved to see some father bonding with Henry, but before Hook I was bitter about what happened with August. I don’t dislike SF but I just didn’t care whether or not they ended up together. Once again, the only thing that kept me watching in season 3 was Hook pretty much. The biggest flaw of this show, in my opinion, is that it has amazing characters but the plots start out soooo good and then turn into a snooze fest. Neverland could have been a lot better than it was. Alas, the only thing that got me through it was Hook and, yes, CS.
Hook deliberately antagonises Rumple in 4A by blackmailing him, yet cries foul when Rumple gets the upper hand. He referred to Milah, the great love of his life who he’d spent centries trying to avenge, as “soiled”. As dark one Hook, he was just vile. Yet he suffers no consequences or even acknowledgement of his actions. As DO Hook, either has has to be held accountable for his actions like Rumple is, or if Hook is given a free pass because of the “darkness” then RUmple needs to be given a free pass as well otherwise it’s double standards.
I actually completely disagree with this. Even when I liked said character, he has always wanted power. His words. He wanted to be the dark one. Even when he was free from that ‘curse’ and could have actually started over, he went out of his way to be manipulative and conniving to get that power back.
Hook? Hook didn’t want it at all! Hook would have rather died than become the dark one because he knew he wouldn’t be able to remain his version of good. He was happy, he was in love, <del>and he was finally being a man he thought maybe his brother could be proud of</del>. I do think they rushed it in 5B. I wish we could have seen more of a struggle as Hook fought the darkness. Emma did, but Emma is the savior, which is why I think that she had an easier time fending off the darkness. She never really did become full on DarkSwan. But I think that was the amount of light magic in her.
But no, I do not think that Hook and Rumple can be compared here. One wanted to be the dark one, the other was forced into something he didn’t want and knew he couldn’t control, something he had hated for centuries.
Hook has had positive moments. His scene in the library in 4B with Belle where he tells her that despite what Rumple did, RUmple did genuinely love her was one of my favourite moments of that episode. Hook didn’t have to say that but he did because it was the right thing to do even if it didn’t gain him anything. Hook’s best scenes are with Charming and Charming alone because Charming doesn’t take any of his crap and Hook respects that. As has been pointed out, it seems a lot of Hook’s character development happens off screen but because we don’t see it, it looks like he’s just done a complete 180 for no reason other than to get in Emma’s pants. CS is not good for either Emma or Hook, at least not how it is currently being written. The writers need to give Hook more scenes with other character who aren’t Emma otherwise it makes him look obsessive.
I agree with most of this actually. I don’t want anymore relationship drama between Hook and Emma. I don’t want anymore talk of her walls and what-not. I want them to just be together so they can grow without that drama constantly being pushed to the forefront. Hook and Regina have great scenes together. I love that they antagonize each other so much. I want to see more Hook with Regina, Charming, Henry, and even Belle. I think that would be the best thing moving forward for his character and the show.
We're all just stories in the end.
Ahh, let me first start by saying I was making general comments. I was not specifically saying how people on here felt about Hook when he first was introduced. I am talking about other forums, and friends that I have who watch the show.
Forgive me for implying otherwise. Wasn’t my intention.
If you truly did not find Hook’s introduction to the show compelling, or the very least, a little interesting, then that is truly odd to me. Everyone has tastes, but he was such a different character that the show didn’t have.
Well, let me extrapolate on this, then.
I didn’t see Hook as a breath of fresh air because the broad strokes of his story are similar to other stories, namely Regina, Rumple, and the Hollywood pirate in the vein of Jack Sparrow.
–His main introduction is that he lost Milah and he is seeking revenge for the death of his loved one. That’s straight up Regina. His snark and snappy lines is also in the Regina vein which is why they still play off each other so well, to this day.
–His other story that was lost quite quickly was that a big part of his redemption had to deal with his father/son dynamic with Nealfire. That was part in parcel with Rumple. And for what it’s worth, I was a huge supporter of Captain Fire and that development. I really wanted Neal to have fatherly feelings for Hook and for that to be sincerely developed because THAT–the lost boy who found a “father” in his father’s greatest enemy–REALLY WAS something new.
And I will say this, while I did not really enjoy Hook from the first, I did enjoy some part of his snark–especially with Cora. “Sparkly dirt” still makes me crack up. And, for what’s it worth, when Hook isn’t with Emma–like his side adventure with Arthur–I find I’m not as excessively annoyed and that he has some moments.
–Finally Hook is VERY in the mold of the 21st century Hollywood pirate–extra eyeliner, rum, swagger, and less scurvy-infested rotten teeth. Think Johnny Depp but less Keith Richards-inspiration.
So, his story felt like something I’d already seen and thus he was rather extraneous to me.
As for the other factors, this we’ve discussed before so you roughly know where I stand. Hook’s a villain, he’s going to say and do villainous things, but I can’t applaud those things/sayings or even accept them simply because he’s wearing the tag “villain”, like implying gang rape of Milah. Those things turn my stomach (and I really don’t think it’s part of the ABC Family Hour the show tries to sell itself as…) to the point where I found him more than villainous…something all too real in our world.
But with Hook it’s more like attacking on here. When Rumple does something bad, people on here tend to try and make excuses for him, or try and say well he’s always been this way, he’s torn and he wants to have both power and love. And it’s an actual debate because the fandom legitimately is divided on whether he is a morally grey character anymore, or of he truly is an evil villain. With Hook, it’s never about the good things he does on here. Ever. It gets downplayed massively.
Hmmm. I dunno. I do see what you’re saying here and certainly this forum in particular has a bent toward not liking Hook in any regard. But I *do* think that his good deeds–while good and heroic (and I’ve said as much other places)–are still minor in comparison to his ill deeds. Putting pages in a book to help the CharMillStiltskin clan in SB doesn’t quite override the murder of manys, to be explicit.
"He was a lot of things to me" "The only conclusion was love"As dark one Hook, he was just vile. Yet he suffers no consequences or even acknowledgement of his actions. As DO Hook, either has has to be held accountable for his actions like Rumple is, or if Hook is given a free pass because of the “darkness” then RUmple needs to be given a free pass as well otherwise it’s double standards.
I agree with @PriceOfMagic about this.
I actually completely disagree with this. Even when I liked said character, he has always wanted power. His words. He wanted to be the dark one. Even when he was free from that ‘curse’ and could have actually started over, he went out of his way to be manipulative and conniving to get that power back. Hook? Hook didn’t want it at all! Hook would have rather died than become the dark one because he knew he wouldn’t be able to remain his version of good. He was happy, he was in love, <del>and he was finally being a man he thought maybe his brother could be proud of</del>. I do think they rushed it in 5B. I wish we could have seen more of a struggle as Hook fought the darkness. Emma did, but Emma is the savior, which is why I think that she had an easier time fending off the darkness. She never really did become full on DarkSwan. But I think that was the amount of light magic in her. But no, I do not think that Hook and Rumple can be compared here. One wanted to be the dark one, the other was forced into something he didn’t want and knew he couldn’t control, something he had hated for centuries.
This would be a valid argument except for one thing – Hook’s change of heart at the end of ‘Swan Song’. Stopping Nimue and sacrificing himself shows that he did have control, that he could make good choices. And if he had contorl then he should be held accountable for his earlier vile actions.
The problem here is the double standard. Hook is given a free pass for his diabolical actions under the pretext that he “didn’t have control”. Yet he is lauded for his sacrifice at the end. Both happened when he was the DO. If he wasn’t in control of his actions then he shouldn’t get credit for stopping Nimue. And if he was in control, then he shouldn’t get a free pass for his bad behaviour. You can’t have it both ways, yet that’s what the show is doing with Hook.
I guess we have to agree to disagree because the way I see it, Hook is getting vilified because he was able to resist the darkness in the end? I’m sorry but I just do not understand that reasoning.
Once again, Hook didn’t choose to be the DO. Rumple did.
When in the end, when it matter the most, Hook made the sacrifice needed.
When Neal needed his father? When Belle needed her husband? Rumple would not do what it what he needed to. He couldn’t give it up.
Hook is not a good guy. He isn’t a hero. Yes, the writers do sometimes gloss over the things he has done, but they gloss over a lot of things characters have done. The difference is Hook doesn’t constantly brood over it, but neither does his simply embrace it.
We're all just stories in the end.
When in the end, when it matter the most, Hook made the sacrifice needed.
When it mattered most to HOOK. From Merlin’s perspective, the moment that mattered most was when Hook killed him. But evidently, the prospect of murdering a man was not enough to twig Hook’s conscience into being able to resist the darkness.
Yes, let’s agree to disagree. As for Rumple – well, to my mind, it’s not about Rumple vs Hook. They can be as bad as each other. It’s just that nobody’s calling Rumple another other than a villain at this point.
Your point about OUAT glossing over everyone’s misdeeds is bang on. We’ve been talking about ‘morally grey’ characters and there seems to be a general concensus that these are good for the show. The problem is that OUAT’s villains (Regina, Rumple, Hook, Zelena) used to be so vile – serial killers, rapists, torturers – that for me at least, it puts them firmly into the ‘black’ category. Not ‘morally grey’. So when the time comes for redemption, if their atonement isn’t proportional to the scale of their crimes (which is very, very high), it feels like glossing over. As Screwball Ninja puts it: “…OUAT pushes redemption over justice. The villains take precedence over their victims.”
http://screwballninja.tumblr.com/post/144149136276/ouat-and-redemption-im-seeing-a-lot-of-shade
Hmm, well out of curiosity what exactly does it take for a villain to really be considered redeemed then? I see the issue with OUAT’s interpretation of redemption, but realistically, is there any other way? Are Hook, Rump, and Regina supposed to spend life in prison once they decide to leave behind villainy?
Not that I am defending Hook, who I don’t see as someone who is making a genuine change. But I think OUAT’s version is the best the show can really do. But even then, I don’t think Hook fits that criteria for redemption. As science said, Hook does what matters when it matters to him. He just seems like a selfish person who isn’t trying to be the hero because its the right thing to do, but because it will get him the girl. I didn’t like it when I felt Rumple was just trying to change for Belle for the same reason. But Rumple had moments where he was doing the best for the right reasons, no matter what it meant for himself (like killing Pan) and Regina when she was going to sacrifice herself to save SB in season 2. I don’t think Hook has had a lot of those moments.
Side note: Its nice that we are all having a discussion on Hook again. Politely. Hurray, everyone clap ur hair! 😀
"I could have the giant duck as my steed!" --Daniel Radcliffe
Keeper Of Tamara's Taser , Jafar's Staff, Kitsis’s Glasses , Ariel’s Tail, Dopey's Hat , Peter Pan’s Shadow, Outfit, & Pied Cloak,Red Queen's Castle, White Rabbit's Power To World Hop, Zelena's BroomStick, & ALL MAGICOne point commonly raised by Hook fans is that Hook is ‘attacked’ more than other villains on the show. I do think this is true; Hook is VERY polarising. Now, that may be because his actions are glossed over the most and the audience tries to overcompensate. But I have another theory.
Most of the other villains on the show have been magical. Their crimes, while great, often have a fantastical quality to them. Ripping out hearts, casting dark curses – these are not things we see in reality. And this distance between reality and what we’re seeing influences our perception of their seriousness.
Hook’s crimes by contrast – bullying, lewdness, sexual aggression, asssault – these are things we DO see on a day to day basis. Many have been victims of such acts. Because of this, I think people’s reaction to Hook tends to be more personal and more visceral.
Let’s compare Regina’s treatment of Graham to Hook’s assault on Belle. Regina was coercing Graham into an unwanted sexual relationship by magically controlling his heart. Many have rightly called this out as rape. However, because it’s so far removed from what we commonly construe as ‘rape’ (even though it IS rape), the outcry is far less than might be expected. Contrast that with Hook striking a chained up Belle across the face. This is something that is sadly all too relatable and many people reacted with strong disgust.
Hook’s actions resonate far more strongly with our perceptions and experiences of violence in day to day life. Therefore, we find them more disturbing and hence react more personally and more harshly towards the character.
Once again, Hook didn’t choose to be the DO. Rumple did. When in the end, when it matter the most, Hook made the sacrifice needed.
I’ll agree to “agree to disagree” but just to point out the other side of the argument, just to show where people are coming from, it’s not that Hook made this huge all sweeping heroic sacrifice. He simply undid everything he had put into play in the first place. He set up the entire situation, he was the reason why everyone needed saving in the first place. In my eyes, you don’t get applauded for deciding, at the last second, to not kill an entire town full of people that you originally were going to send to the Underworld. And while everyone can talk about being infested by the DO and being under Niume’s control, go back and watch the episode “Nimue.” It’s very clear in the interactions between Nimue and Emma that Emma is in control; Nimue can try to persuade but it’s Emma who decides her actions all along (the great “I’ve never been nothing” speech.
But I agree with @sciencevsmagic that both Rumple and Hook can be as evil/bad as the other. I don’t think it’s a contest. I used to love Rumple dearly but now I’ve easily become one of his harsher critics around these parts. You’re right that everyone’s deeds get forgotten to some extent on this show. But I think it happens more often with Hook. Look at Regina, for instance. While you don’t hear of specific examples in the season 5 finale, it’s all about the vile nature of the Evil Queen.
Hook’s crimes by contrast – bullying, lewdness, sexual aggression, asssault – these are things we DO see on a day to day basis. Many have been victims of such acts. Because of this, I think people’s reaction to Hook tends to be more personal and more visceral.
This is a HUGE part of it for me personally. I want relatable and human character but that means that when they do something all too real and real-world, they have to pay for it in some way, just like I would expect them to do in the real world.
"He was a lot of things to me" "The only conclusion was love"
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