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What are you thoughts about the lie Charming used to make Snow belief in herself? Does the purpose justify it?
If I’m honest I’m a little bit disappointed about him. He is actually using the same method Pan used on Greg and Tamara to lead them to their misbelief. Actually the first thing which came into my mind is a quote from the Neverending Story, which of course has nothing to do wit OUAT but fit’s very well into the topic:
“When it comes to controlling human beings, there is no better instrument than lies. Because you see, humans live by beliefs. And beliefs can be manipulated. The power to manipulate beliefs is the only thing that counts.”
And that’s actually what he does. He manipulated her. Of course on good purpose but I still have doubt into his means. As far as I remember he never was able to give Snow and the dwarfs good arguments for risking people’s life and fighting back. Snow actually said and realized it by herself that the kingdom needs her or to be freed from the Evil Queen.
[adrotate group="5"]“There were thousands and thousands of forms of joy in the world, but that all were essentially one and the same, namely, the joy of being able to love.”
— from the Neverending Story by Michael EndeI’ll admit it wasn’t very White Knight of him. But it wouldn’t be very White Knight of him to move off to a farm with Snow and let Regina rule the land either. One of the reoccurring themes on ONCE is the idea of desperate souls doing desperate things. I think Charming did a morally gray thing but for the right reason. I also think it opens up the possibility of seeing just what Charming is capable of in the future, now that he’s injured.
"He was a lot of things to me" "The only conclusion was love"When is it right to lie and when is it not? Generally, honesty is the best policy. Yet, what if a lie protected people from a greater evil? Would it be right to go against that general rule of never tell a lie? I think the answer has to be yes.
For example, if a person of integrity knew that he could either quietly go about his life in an unobtrusive way while living in 1939 Germany or to lie to the Nazi system by harboring Jews, what would be the more moral thing to do? Would it be better to live under a system of evil, or would it be better to counter that corrupt government by lying (even to family and friends) to protect innocent people?
I see Charming as doing the latter. First, he tried to convince Snow not to let Regina win, and when words weren’t enough to bolster her confidence, he told a white lie to help Snow realize her own sense of duty to protect her people. She didn’t need a magic sword to confront Regina, just her own confidence to draw blood. Charming’s tactic, while a bit shady, did help Snow become a great leader and protector of her people. (Of course, no one, except for Rumple, could’ve predicted that Regina would cast the dark curse).
"That’s how you know you’ve really got a home. When you leave it, there’s this feeling that you can’t shake. You just miss it." Neal Cassidy
I’d say that the end justified the means in this case. He knew that Snow could do it, and knew she’d regret it every day of her life if she didn’t, and she’d never be able to live with herself, so he gave her the nudge she needed.
I liked how in the flashbacks they had Charming giving Snow a kick so she could dig deep and be true to herself, and in present day they had Snow giving Emma a kick so she could dig deep and be true to herself.
Yes, I have mostly agree with RumplesGirl. It was morally gray. The only problem I have is that he used a lie “to manipulate” Snow, which I think is not completely the right way.
I think my biggest problem is that Charming couldn’t explain why Snow has to fight back and put the dwarfs, Snow White and the people they care about in danger.
He never said they should do it because Snow might regret it or because they had to protect the people in the kingdom from the Evil Queen. I really was thinking the reason why he thought it is the rigth thing to fight back because he was feeling it is the right thing to do.
He was right at the end. But he used a lie to manipulate the person he loved most. Which is not comparable with a simple lie to protect someone or himself.
So I would say it is at least a morally gray thing.“There were thousands and thousands of forms of joy in the world, but that all were essentially one and the same, namely, the joy of being able to love.”
— from the Neverending Story by Michael EndeSnow cared about the people of her kingdom just as much as she cared about those close to her. If they settled down peacefully somewhere, they’d still hear about how Regina was terrorising Snow’s people, and that would mean that they weren’t really living in peace after all. If she didn’t stand up to Regina, she was taking the coward’s way out, and it’s a no brainer IMO that she would have instantly and forever regretted it. That’s not the life that Charming wanted for her, or for her people.
Charming understands “work hard and protect the sheep”, but his social skills are underdeveloped.
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I think my biggest problem is that Charming couldn’t explain why Snow has to fight back and put the dwarfs, Snow White and the people they care about in danger.
He never said they should do it because Snow might regret it or because they had to protect the people in the kingdom from the Evil Queen. I really was thinking the reason why he thought it is the rigth thing to fight back because he was feeling it is the right thing to do.
Actually Charming did say Snow needed to fight back to protect her people. As I said, it was a bit shady of Charming, but he did do it for the right reasons. I did a quick re-watch of 3×2. Here is what Charming said:
Snow White: We can’t win. We have to leave the kingdom!
Prince Charming: How can you even consider giving into that witch? When you’re gone, do you think she’s suddenly going to stop menacing this land? And who will protect the people then?
Snow White: Did I protect them today? I couldn’t even help that poor girl. And don’t kid yourself. She isn’t going to stop with the peasants. She’s going to come after the people who are closest to me….
Prince Charming: You can’t let her get into your head.
Snow White: She has a point. I’m no queen. I’m no leader. I’m just a girl who lost her parents, ran away into the woods, a became a bandit.
Prince Charming: You’re Snow White.
Snow White: Yes. And the truth is, I don’t even know who that is. But I know what I don’t want to be, and that’s alone.
Prince Charming: That’s never going to happen.
Snow White: You’re right. If we take her offer, we can we can all live together. In exile–but at least we’ll be alive. We should leave. Tomorrow. [walks away]…Prince Charming:[to the dwarfs] This is her kingdom! We can’t just let her walk away from it.
Grumpy: Why do you suddenly care so much about saving her kingdom?
Prince Charming: What do you mean?
Grumpy: Well if you have true love, what difference does it make whether you live in a castle or on a farm?
Prince Charming: Wait. You think I’m in this for her crown?
Grumpy: You said it, not me.
Prince Charming: Okay, okay. I get it. I’m new. But trust me, I want what’s best for Snow.
Grumpy: Look, handsome. She may love you, but that chiseled chin isn’t fooling us. We got our eyes on you.
Prince Charming: Are you dwarfs with me or against me?
Sneezy: I think Grumpy was pretty clear.
Grumpy: Sorry, brother. Snow’s already made up her mind, so if you’re looking to change it, you gotta do it without our help.
Prince Charming: Then I’ll find another way.By his own admission, Charming has always been more a man of action than of words. Charming could’ve talked until he was blue in the face, but I doubt it would’ve made Snow reconsider. And Grumpy sorta planted the idea in his head that it was futile to keep talking. After Regina offered Snow that deal to live peacefully in exile, Charming tried to convince Snow White with his words to reconsider, not for his own sake or hers, for for her people. Since he was unable to convince Snow with his words, he had to come up with some way to show her she is the the true ruler. Snow wanted to take the easy way out, but Charming had to help her choose the right, albeit more difficult and dangerous path by showing herself her own strength and who she really is.
"That’s how you know you’ve really got a home. When you leave it, there’s this feeling that you can’t shake. You just miss it." Neal Cassidy
@slurpeez108
Oh thanks. I guess I missed that specific line. So I thought he never really explain why he was thinking it was right to fight back.
So at this point I would say his lie is more acceptable, but it still has a bitter taste for me.
On the other hand it’s interesting, that Pan used a big lie(the Home Office) to lead Greg and Tamara to misbelief for his own good while Charming used one to make Snow belief into herself and for the good of the people.“There were thousands and thousands of forms of joy in the world, but that all were essentially one and the same, namely, the joy of being able to love.”
— from the Neverending Story by Michael Ende
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