crazy crack theory incoming! -About an alternate reality/AU and a time-loop

[Grimmsister]

But if she knows that, then she would also know that the contract was broken when they rewrote it.

But she needs Rumple to not be dimless because AR Zelena still needs a teacher.

Well thats true…hmmm problems problems :/

But in other news OMG!! RG! that Screwball Ninja essay you posted on the sneak thread http://screwballninja.tumblr.com/post/62363283978/the-one-ouat-essay-you-have-to-read-ready-for

fits with this theory. Quote essay-“Everyone compulsively re-enacts their greatest trauma, each time trying to change the outcome or turn it into a source of ‘strength.” Thats what Z is doing trying to change her past, but ending up reenacting it over and over in the time-loop :O

No doubt in my mind anymore this has to happen in some form or another, either with Regina as the snowflake or not.

[surayya]

Where did AR version Emma come from? She came from the AR. She was never in the Old Reality(from here on I will call Old Reality OR) When Z sends the baby back in time to take her place in the Twister, Z starts a new timeline.

Oh, I understand what you are thinking now- you are merging paradoxes, using Parallel Universe, then switching to Consistent Casual loop paradox with-in the Parallel Universe paradox.

But now it gets VERY messy (so I simply cant see A&E going this route IF they do time travel)

It is within this timeline AR Emma is born.

My problem with this is Emma would NEVER have been born in the new Parallel Universe (AR), because the sequence of events that lead to her eventual birth would no longer be established, since Zelena would have altered them by switching babies.

Because OR Emma tricked Z and kept her magic, AR Emma will remember life as her OR self- Thus being able to, by magic Means, travel back in time to the day of the Twister and make the reverse baby switch.

My problem with this is you have 2 different, distinct & separate timelines/realities- ie. ‘Bob1’ from OR & ‘Bob2’ from AR are 2 Different people (who simply happen to look the same), they had different, separate & distinct experiences in their respective timelines. So Bob2 can not ‘experience’ Bob1’s life history- you can not ‘recall’ lives you have not lived yourself.

so that we can differentiate between the two timelines.

IF you have different timeline you HAVE to HAVE different Versions of the same people within those timelines- remember you cant create a “new” reality that only starts from the moment something different happens- it has to have a history of events with-in it leading up to that moment, then a future beyond that point. Ie OR MUST have Emma1, Snow1, Charming1, Snowing1, Z1, Killian/Hook1 etc. The AR MUST have Z2, Snow2, Charming2, Killian2- But it May NOT  have Snowing2, Emma2 or Henry2 nor even ‘Hook’2 because the sequence of events that lead to them being in the same place at the same time to exist no longer happens with-in the new sequence of events in the AR.

The only way for there to be 1 of someone is for that someone- we shall say Z1 (or OR Z) in this case- Z1 would have to kill Z2 & take her place with-in the timeline of the AR- HOWEVER, if making changes creates new AR, How then would Z1 {OR Z}, get into the AR, Z2 timeline?

This is why I cant see your theory working for Once as you have presented it here- Once isnt a show that deals in the physics or complex paradoxes of time-travel, so it will or should only ever stick to one paradox, so they can easily explain in a linear fashion, what is happening on screen to the hundreds of thousands of viewers WW who dont ‘do’ time travel, not to mention the casual viewers- they simply can not explain the hows & whys of whats going on on screen while using multiple paradoxes that contradict & twist around each other, on a fantasy drama & make it believable or have it make any sense, as the show isnt about explaining how the intricacies of time travel works, its about explaining fairy tale characters stories, magic & having hope/ HEAs 😉

Changing the babies makes her baby-self stay in EF. In if her plan had worked there would then never have been an OR version of Z.

Again jumping realities- a reality doesn’t just simply cease to exist because 1 small factor/persons life has been changed within it- what about the millions of other lives still being played out in the OR & AR?- those people also could have their own paradoxes being played out at the same time (again, why Once shouldnt be going down the whole weird & wonderful Time Travel rd lol). I think I need to point out here that the working theory for time travel is that there are multiple realities, all co-existing at the same time, each once different & distinct from the others due to the millions of different combinations of sequences of events that alter each individuals lives for the better or worse. Therefore every individual has their “own” set of AR timelines made up of the different choices they & others make during their life time/s, none of these time lines started with the individuals birth nor finish with their death, as the sequence of events within the ARs is being played out in the lives of those they touched, or that touched them- so all the realities stretch back to the beginning of everything & at the same time continue forward to the end of everything.

Changing the babies makes her baby-self stay in EF. In if her plan had worked there would then never have been an OR version of Z.

Haha- yep exactly, However would Rumple still be able to use the ‘curse’ to come to SB, since that curse REQUIRED Emma to break it inorder for him to then be free to find Bea?  😉

 

 

 

 

 

[surayya]

That is assuming what you propose here would happen as a result of Z staying with Cora. Cora doesnt neccesarrily have to change her agenda because she has a nother daughter. So in order for it to work, we must assume Cora still wanted her daughter married to King Leo. Then Z would end up as Snows stepmother, like Regina did. Z would drive away Snow and Snow would meet Charming and have Emma.

Problem with this is, you cant follow the same sequence of event if you alter them so they no longer ‘fit’ within the frame work of the new reality/timeline.

….I think my brain just deflated & started leaking out my ears while I tried to find an explanation for what I’ve just said lol, so I’m going to just go ahead & hope that either what I’ve stated makes sense or that RG has already given a better explanation for it further down the thread 😉

The time-loop theory only Works if Cora treats baby Z the same way she did Regina. And Z grows up the same way as Regina and makes the same choices for a good part of the way.

…See thats the problem, Regina only became Regina because Cora gave up Zelena, if Cora kept Zelena, Cora could not become a royal herself & therefore Zelena wont have a ‘royal’ upbringing anyway.

So if Cora was left by Z’s father and that’s what caused Cora to give up baby Z, then the real moment that needs to be changed is not giving Z up, but having Cora left by Z’s

Agreed, however Regina will never exist etc. So again everything is different from there on in & since Emma never is born whats the point from a story telling stand point? Its all a AR, so at the end of the day doesnt effect those we know & love from OR- it would stand if the show was a WW show & revolved around Z finding away not to be the WW or something.

Because She was Coras first born and Coras first born was what Cora owed too Rumple and that way Z would be a problem for Cora becoming a royal- That is what Z believes I mean.

I understand thins & actually like it as an explanation, However again IF that is the case & Z changes it, everything afterwards is changed/altered to the point there is no longer a curse that happens etc. So what is the point from a story telling stand point? it doesnt drive our main characters stories forward in our actual story, nor does it change anything plot wise, so it seems like a giant waste of time to tell it if it doesnt directly effect the people we have right now & the out comes of the choices they are making right now, if that makes sense.

 

[RumplesGirl]

Not sure I will get through it all before I leave (Surf, sand & horse beckon)- before the weather packs it in, but will come back to whats left later on 🙂

TAKE ME WITH YOU??!????!??!

"He was a lot of things to me" "The only conclusion was love"

[RumplesGirl]

What we need is “Action X”

Action X = the action that Zelena wants to undo. We’re assuming it’s Regina’s birth but things can still play out as they did even if Regina isn’t born (fate, destiny, whatever you wanna call it).

So Action X has to be something that drastically alters EVERYTHING.

"He was a lot of things to me" "The only conclusion was love"

[RumplesGirl]

I don’t know if you guys have ever seen LOST, but what Grimm is suggesting reminds me a lot of S5 of LOST.

In brief: (spoilers) the island was moving through time after it was dislodged in time and space (don’t ask). When it finally got back on track, those still on the island were stuck in the 1970s. The ones who had managed to leave the island the season before (in the finale called “There is no place like home” if you wanna get meta) finally managed to find the island again but had to correct the timeline, meaning everyone had to go back to their original timeline. To do this, they had to find a spot on the island where there was a lot of “stuff” was (electromagnetic, geothermal energy..go with it). By setting off an H-bomb, they were able to..literally..blow themselves back to the present day.

But the point was that it had to happen in a specific place at a specific time. BUT even though they went back to the present day, whatever happened..HAPPENED. So it’s not like they were never in the past, they were there. There were even photos of them in the past, after they had come back to the present day. This is a very big concept in LOST and in ONCE..”whatever happened, happened.” So you might be able to go back to the past, but it’s what already happened. You cannot actually change the past because it happened. But it’s your present, which is why you don’t remember it. You, your present self, has no memory of this past time because it’s not the past for you, but your present.

SO. What does that mean for Zelena and co? If we accept that ONCE is deeply indebted and entrenched in LOST, then how does this change the crack?

 

"He was a lot of things to me" "The only conclusion was love"

[surayya]

surayya wrote:

Not sure I will get through it all before I leave (Surf, sand & horse beckon)- before the weather packs it in, but will come back to whats left later on

TAKE ME WITH YOU??!????!??!

Haha, I’m hoping the water isnt to chilly- just heard there is dolpins on the way up the coast, so I will be leaving in 20mins If I want to meet them- hopefully I will get surf, sand, horse & swimming with dolphins all at once lol (will be the last time until next summer I think!) 😉

What we need is “Action X” Action X = the action that Zelena wants to undo. We’re assuming it’s Regina’s birth but things can still play out as they did even if Regina isn’t born (fate, destiny, whatever you wanna call it). So Action X has to be something that drastically alters EVERYTHING.

But how- Regina didnt love Rumple most- she loved her father, we dont know who or what Zelena’s father is, whats to say he’s a ‘good/lovable’ man? whats to say Cora keeps her heart? Zelena may not be as generous as Regina was in forgiving/loving her mother despite the abuse she endured? etc.

So well yes, I agree we need action X to know for sure what end game she is playing, many small changes can lead to entirely different event out comes- ie what if it’s Z who is forced to marry Leo, would Snow actually survive into adult hood to meet Charming- would Zelena ‘want’ to destroy Snow’s life, since it wasnt her TL that Cora kills? & then how do we explain the flash backs where we clearly see it all happening to Regina, not Zelena- which brings me back to what is the purpose of going down this particular rd story wise? As it does nothing to further character or plot development as it stands right now- since everything happened, but had nothing to do with the people we are involved with right now (in OR)?

[RumplesGirl]

So well yes, I agree we need action X to know for sure what end game she is playing, many small changes can lead to entirely different event out comes- ie what if it’s Z who is forced to marry Leo, would Snow actually survive into adult hood to meet Charming- would Zelena ‘want’ to destroy Snow’s life, since it wasnt her TL that Cora kills? & then how do we explain the flash backs where we clearly see it all happening to Regina, not Zelena- which brings me back to what is the purpose of going down this particular rd story wise? As it does nothing to further character or plot development as it stands right now- since everything happened, but had nothing to do with the people we are involved with right now (in OR)?

Doesn’t this depend on how Zelena grows up? Regina had Daniel. If Zelena didn’t have that because she had magic and had Cora’s love and support and Rumple as a tutor, then there would be no need to marry Leo, meaning no interaction with Snow. So she would still have cast the Curse but only there is no Savior because no vendetta against Snow = no Snowing = No Emma.

So Action X must be before anything to do with Regina. Like if Z’s father hadn’t left Cora.

Cora and Z’s father have True Love (let’s say). They have Zelena who is the produce of True Love and incredibly magical. Cora meets Rumple who wants her daughter. She agrees to let Zelena be raised as a pupil of Rumple because Cora is still ambitious. Because Cora never loved Rumple (because she had her True Love in Z’s father), she never removes her heart. Zelena is all she needs, she is enough. No more kids  = no Regina. Zelena grows up away from Leo and Snow’s family. Eva never dies. Snow marries someone else because David is still just a farm boy. Snow and this other guy do not have True Love and therefore do not produce Emma. Rumple has no Savior to break his Curse but Zelena is still going to cast the Curse. Everything is changed if Zelena can get her father to stay with Cora

"He was a lot of things to me" "The only conclusion was love"

[surayya]

Doesn’t this depend on how Zelena grows up? Regina had Daniel. If Zelena didn’t have that because she had magic and had Cora’s love and support and Rumple as a tutor, then there would be no need to marry Leo, meaning no interaction with Snow. So she would still have cast the Curse but only there is no Savior because no vendetta against Snow = no Snowing = No Emma.

Yes, agreed- but thats what I’m saying-
-Rumple NEEDED to have Snowings child be there to break the curse, so he could be free to go find Bae.
-No Snowing if Regina isnt forced to marry Leo, so No Emma or Henry & therefore no savior to break the curse & free Rumple (give him back his memories) to go find Bea- so no point in Rumple casting the curse in the 1st place, if it will only get him to a land without magic, but still prevent him from finding his son for all eternity, since he wont remember Bae.

So Action X must be before anything to do with Regina. Like if Z’s father hadn’t left Cora.

Possibly… Hmm, i wonder- …. What if action X is nothing to do with Cora/Regina per say, but more timing, with Zelena wanting to circumnavigate the course of events that leads to Regina becoming a Queen/getting it all (in Zelena’s mind)- by ensuring that she, Zelena has Everything & more than Regina got, by being the one to save child snow?
What if she (Zelena) replaces Regina, with herself from that point on in the timeline? So Zelena gets the actual loving family & outs Regina (in her mind) from getting it all, along with ‘punishing’ Cora & Rumple for their future/past poor treatment of her. Or something along those lines.

Then we still have all (aside from Henry) our characters within the story (no one is written out of history aside from Henry- hence Emma finding out what WW is going to try do, she freaks out & insists on heading Zelena off/ going to stop her somehow) however their roles in history have simply been altered/changed.
There is no AR – but the current timeline is changed so that:
1)Snow was never the step daughter of EQ,
2)Snowing may still have meet, so Emma is still born
3)But the curse doesn’t get cast etc. (unless Regina is made to cast it against Zelena, which I like, as this then means there is a chance Henry is still born, which mean they all exist, but under less than ‘ideal’ conditions, since it is Zelena now hell bent of destroying Regina & therefore harming Henry)
– as all this happens in/still is the same timeline we have going on now & therefore effects the characters we have now- both from past interactions which effect them now & from current day characters traveling back & experiencing things, which develops their stories, while they go through the process of righting the timeline again.

Cora and Z’s father have True Love (let’s say). They have Zelena who is the produce of True Love and incredibly magical. Cora meets Rumple who wants her daughter. She agrees to let Zelena be raised as a pupil of Rumple because Cora is still ambitious. Because Cora never loved Rumple (because she had her True Love in Z’s father), she never removes her heart. Zelena is all she needs, she is enough. No more kids  = no Regina. Zelena grows up away from Leo and Snow’s family. Eva never dies. Snow marries someone else because David is still just a farm boy. Snow and this other guy do not have True Love and therefore do not produce Emma. Rumple has no Savior to break his Curse but Zelena is still going to cast the Curse. Everything is changed if Zelena can get her father to stay with Cora

I agree everything will change, Yes. But my problem becomes, ‘how does that change or do anything for the characters development or plot playing out on our screens now?’
By adding a new reality, these changes mean nothing to our current characters as it doesn’t affect them (unless we never go back to how things have been played out to date, in which case, Emma, Henry & pretty much everyone is written out of the story). If we stick with the reality we have now as a result, then all the convoluted time travel/alterations mean, is our current characters remember nothing & nothing changes, but Z is now gone- that doesnt drive the plot forward, nor do we end up with any character development aside from a now missing Z (who’s living it up in another alternative reality, now devoid of Snowing/Emma/Henry etc).
So their (our main 8 cast characters) reality, has to be changed to make a time travel tale worth telling (which means we can only have the one timeline to work with), It cant be an alteration where Snowing never meet, as Emma will- what, fade from existence? Which seems a kind of a crappy story to tell on a show where she is the major focus lol 😉
What I’m saying is Emma cant go back in time & correct it if she never exists in the 1st place- cause always comes before effect ie. You cant eat an apple pie (the effect), Before making an apple pie 1st (someone causing it to be created)- so Emma cant go back to fix a timeline IF she never came to exist with-in it, in the 1st place 😉

Oh, maybe we are thinking too far back- maybe something happens in SnowFalls time, that Zelena wants to take advantage of/change.
As I said before, I can not see Zelena doing anything unless it gives her, the person she is now, what she wants- It’s like saying that Regina would have been fine with Rumple simply killing Snow for her- that wasnt enough for Regina, she wanted to satisfy “herself”/’base needs’ & Zelena is no different- she wants Her own needs satisfied, not be without then, but knowing some other version of herself has what she herself wants IMO.

[surayya]

I don’t know if you guys have ever seen LOST, but what Grimm is suggesting reminds me a lot of S5 of LOST. In brief: (spoilers) the island was moving through time after it was dislodged in time and space (don’t ask). When it finally got back on track, those still on the island were stuck in the 1970s. The ones who had managed to leave the island the season before (in the finale called “There is no place like home” if you wanna get meta) finally managed to find the island again but had to correct the timeline, meaning everyone had to go back to their original timeline. To do this, they had to find a spot on the island where there was a lot of “stuff” was (electromagnetic, geothermal energy..go with it). By setting off an H-bomb, they were able to..literally..blow themselves back to the present day. But the point was that it had to happen in a specific place at a specific time. BUT even though they went back to the present day, whatever happened..HAPPENED. So it’s not like they were never in the past, they were there. There were even photos of them in the past, after they had come back to the present day. This is a very big concept in LOST and in ONCE..”whatever happened, happened.” So you might be able to go back to the past, but it’s what already happened. You cannot actually change the past because it happened. But it’s your present, which is why you don’t remember it. You, your present self, has no memory of this past time because it’s not the past for you, but your present. SO. What does that mean for Zelena and co? If we accept that ONCE is deeply indebted and entrenched in LOST, then how does this change the crack?

Oh, I missed this!

Yeah IMO, Lost sucked at their attempt at explaining time travel- just ‘go with it’ was kind of their motto LOL 😉

What Lost attempted was Consistent Casual Loop paradox- you always went back, so the timeline never ends up deviating anyway. The problem I have with this working on Once, is we clearly have interaction between Snowing & CS in the ‘past’ BTS spoilers, yet no proofs of it happening in the flashbacks at any stage that we’ve seen already- in fact everything actually dismisses it as a possibility. ie. why did Snowing never ‘recognize Hook & Emma from their SnowFalls adventure? Why would David have a problem with Killian/Hook & Emma being together when he was in NL, if he knew them to be all but together from meeting them in the past (I’m thinking SnowFalls events/adventure). Why did Snow not recognize Hook as someone who is ‘on their side’ when she & Emma where in FTL, if they’d already meet in the past. We have established back story that would be shattered & fragmented by Consistent Casual Loop  & make a couple of peoples actions look very stupid :/

Which is why I’m thinking they have to go with grandfather paradox- Zelena tries to alter the future that is, by a one off  (cant be repeated because of plot device #5876) trip back to mess with the series of events that leads to ‘X’ happening, this could destroy our main characters lives, so Emma has to go back as well to stop Zelena from succeeding in her plans to alter the time line, which she does. This way we dont have to worry about meetings etc. because the 1st time around they never did meet, but when Emma returns- Snowing remember ‘meeting’ her in the past now etc.

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