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phew! this is so hard to explain. I wish I could Draw it on a piece of paper for you, sometimes Visuals is an easier way for me to explain.
Hey I wanna go with to that Beach too!!
The problem you propose with Emmas birth in the AR, I dont understand. Because sure, if it happens the way you propose “Cora is fond of her daughter Z and never marries her of to Leo, because Z is enough for her” etc. Then yes, Emma wouldnt be born. But thats assuming it happens that way.
What I am doing, to make the time-loop theory Work, is assume that Cora’s actions was still the same concerning her daughter, even if her daughter was Z. And it IS very posible for Cora to act the same way she did when Regina was the daughter.
Grimmsistr wrote: Because OR Emma tricked Z and kept her magic, AR Emma will remember life as her OR self- Thus being able to, by magic Means, travel back in time to the day of the Twister and make the reverse baby switch.Sur- My problem with this is you have 2 different, distinct & separate timelines/realities- ie. ‘Bob1′ from OR & ‘Bob2′ from AR are 2 Different people (who simply happen to look the same), they had different, separate & distinct experiences in their respective timelines. So Bob2 can not ‘experience’ Bob1′s life history- you can not ‘recall’ lives you have not lived yourself.
No Emma is still Emma, and she has the memories of OR Emma imbedded in her, because she has her strong magic she will remeber. Think of it as like a reincarnation or like people saying they remember their past lives- same thing in a way. It would be possible for Emma to remember, because she has already lived the life in the OR only to be taken back by Z’s curse to start life over and live it in a different way.
You can not completely seperate the two timelines. Z’s AR World is a timeline that starts and ends WITHIN the normal Worlds timeline, like a glitch. Think of an old music LP record, sometimes that needle thing playing the music would get stuck and jump back a bit, now imagine the music playing differently this time, singer singing different Words, until the needle was back at the point of the glitch, it jumps alittle and then plays on with the original tune. this would all have happened on the same LP record. Okay I know that analogy doesnt explain a time-loop in Once, but it was just a nice Little image to Draw the timeline-loop, since I dont have paper to Draw and explain.
sur- IF you have different timeline you HAVE to HAVE different Versions of the same people within those timelines- remember you cant create a “new” reality that only starts from the moment something different happens- it has to have a history of events with-in it leading up to that moment,
you keep talking about there being two different realities. And I keep saying there is only one reality. If Z goes back in time to her baby-Hood (in the one and only reality) alteres what happened on that particular day, she changes the history of that reality- ergo Altered Reality or AR. She doesnt create a new distinct reality seperate from the one she lives in, because yes that would not mean anything to her own self and just be useless. She alteres her own reality-
After that, events take place, we have to assume that events take place in an order that makes Emmas birth possible- and that is not impossible. We could also think up all kinds of different orders of events which doesnt make Emmas birth possible, but that would be useless, so why do it if we are trying to make the Time-loop Work?
Z lives her life as Regina Up until the day that Emma, having remembered OR because she has magic and this Emma is like a new reincarnation of OR Emma, not a different version, but old Emma taken back in time by Z’s time-curse. So Emma remembers, and sets in motion the events that will stop the time-loop.
Sur- I think I need to point out here that the working theory for time travel is that there are multiple realities, all co-existing at the same time, each once different & distinct from the others due to the millions of different combinations of sequences of events that alter each individuals lives for the better or worse. Therefore every individual has their “own” set of AR timelines made up of the different choices they & others make during their life time/s,
Thats a Whole different way of seing it and I guess if you set your mind on this being the only possible way for a story on time travel to be told, then, yes Z’s actions would be useless, because she would just be creating a different Little Z and not changing her own past. But Again that is not what happens in my version of it.
[adrotate group="5"]RG- What we need is “Action X”
Action X = the action that Zelena wants to undo. We’re assuming it’s Regina’s birth but things can still play out as they did even if Regina isn’t born (fate, destiny, whatever you wanna call it).
So Action X has to be something that drastically alters EVERYTHING.
This is one reason Why Regina being the Snowflake would Work perfectly. If Regina is the baby send to Oz she wont get in the way of Z and Cora being mother daughter. Z doesnt know that Regina is the Snowflake, which is why she want to steal her Heart in present day Storybrook, so she can curse her out of existence in her AR, but that wont Work because Regina is never born in AR 🙂
Action X The action Z want undone. Okay, So we must also consider how much does she know? how much of her knowledge of the past is correct? And if some of it is incorrect, how does that then effect her AR and is that some of the reason her AR ends up not working so well for her???
Can I just say Again how much I love this convo the 3 of us are having here 🙂 very interesting, fun, strange and mindbending.. love love love !! Come join us lurkers!
Thats a Whole different way of seing it and I guess if you set your mind on this being the only possible way for a story on time travel to be told, then, yes Z’s actions would be useless, because she would just be creating a different Little Z and not changing her own past. But Again that is not what happens in my version of it.
I’ll reply to the rest tomorrow- long wonderful day, I have to be up early for more horsing & I have to read before going to bed (Im too ocd not to read lol :p ) & it’s almost 10pm already!
But that theory I pointed out, is the ‘actual’ working scientific understanding of timelines/parallel realities/AR- it isnt actually fan made mumbo jumbo 😉 I was using it to point out just having a reality pop into existence or having someone simply cease to exist wasnt really going to work logically & since time travel is based in SciFi & not fantasy, it needs to based in science to ‘work/function’ plausibly IMO, other wise it’s not really time travel, it’s more a convenient plot device to flop out when needed & borderline jumping the shark for a fantasy drama.
Who’d ever have thought we’d be having a serious time travel discussion about Once!?! LOL, it’s great in a weird, weird way 🙂
Wow I’m so confused by this discussion.
But from what I did understand- My headcanon is that Zelena never succeeds to do the spell, but if she does than it makes sense that whatever changes she does were already changed in her own past. I remember I read a few days ago a discussion here about the fact that the tornado that took baby Zelena to Oz was green, just like her own magic. It makes perfect sense that she creates that tornado to take baby Regina to Oz instead of her but the tornado ends up taking baby Zelena and causing all the events that we see now.
That part about Regina being the Snowing baby… I don’t like it. I think Henry’s family tree is complicated enough…
It is possible for Emma to exist in this AR- Snowing is true love and I believe they will meet and fall in love even if Snow doesn’t escape from Regina (this reminds me of Alice’s speech to Jafar for those who saw OUATIW). And if the creators need her to remember this reality than they will find some excuse for that so that’s not a problem.
You know what I can't continue with the dead people brought back to life list I'm out of space in the signature and now we have an underworld arc this is to much I quit why do you bring so many people back to life OUAT WHHHYYYY
Sur- I’ll reply to the rest tomorrow- long wonderful day, I have to be up early for more horsing & I have to read before going to bed (Im too ocd not to read lol :p ) & it’s almost 10pm already!
Looking forward to it 🙂
But that theory I pointed out, is the ‘actual’ working scientific understanding of timelines/parallel realities/AR- it isnt actually fan made mumbo jumbo
I was using it to point out just having a reality pop into existence or having someone simply cease to exist wasnt really going to work logically & since time travel is based in SciFi & not fantasy, it needs to based in science to ‘work/function’ plausibly IMO, other wise it’s not really time travel, it’s more a convenient plot device to flop out when needed & borderline jumping the shark for a fantasy drama. Using the actual Scientific understanding of multible universes is alright, but I dont think its neccesary in trying to understand timetravel in Once’s universe. Since Once is a faitytale in which people are able to make giant cupcakes appear in their hand out of thin air.. I mean actual real World science dont really aply here 😉
By making timetravel (or timeloopy glitches) logical in a fantasy story, doesnt mean it has to Work under our real World natural Laws. We only need to make it Work within the stories logic Laws. And so Im asking what about the time-loop doesnt Work under the stories natural logic and law?
Time-loop wouldnt be possible under the multible universe theory you point out. But what about the theory I propose is unlogical under the Once universe Laws?
What do you mean by saying that because Once is a fantasy show they cant do timetravel, because that belongs in SciFi ? Thats like saying a Romantic movie may never involve any action because that belongs in Action movies!!! people/writers/movie makers merge these Things all the time and why shouldnt they?
Wow I’m so confused by this discussion.
But from what I did understand- My headcanon is that Zelena never succeeds to do the spell, but if she does than it makes sense that whatever changes she does were already changed in her own past. I remember I read a few days ago a discussion here about the fact that the tornado that took baby Zelena to Oz was green, just like her own magic. It makes perfect sense that she creates that tornado to take baby Regina to Oz instead of her but the tornado ends up taking baby Zelena and causing all the events that we see now.
Yes thats exactly it!
That part about Regina being the Snowing baby… I don’t like it. I think Henry’s family tree is complicated enough…
True very complicated indeed. I know lots of people wouldnt like Regina being Snowflake. But IMO it makes perfect sence and I loves it 🙂
It is possible for Emma to exist in this AR- Snowing is true love and I believe they will meet and fall in love even if Snow doesn’t escape from Regina (this reminds me of Alice’s speech to Jafar for those who saw OUATIW). And if the creators need her to remember this reality than they will find some excuse for that so that’s not a problem.
Lol… 🙂 yep writers will make it Work.
Yes, agreed- but thats what I’m saying- -Rumple NEEDED to have Snowings child be there to break the curse, so he could be free to go find Bae. -No Snowing if Regina isnt forced to marry Leo, so No Emma or Henry & therefore no savior to break the curse & free Rumple (give him back his memories) to go find Bea- so no point in Rumple casting the curse in the 1st place, if it will only get him to a land without magic, but still prevent him from finding his son for all eternity, since he wont remember Bae.
Agreed. Emma is vital to Rumple. But maybe that’s the point? She’s vital to HIM, not Zelena. If Zelena can figure out a way to make sure there is no Savior, then she’s won over Rumple, Regina, and Snowing
I agree everything will change, Yes. But my problem becomes, ‘how does that change or do anything for the characters development or plot playing out on our screens now?’
I guess two options
1) Everyone gets “reset” and S4 is trying to find Emma in the AR OR Emma trying to find everyone else. Ever watch “FRINGE?” Think S4 Peter
2) Zelena is defeated and everything goes back to normal
Which is why I’m thinking they have to go with grandfather paradox- Zelena tries to alter the future that is, by a one off (cant be repeated because of plot device #5876) trip back to mess with the series of events that leads to ‘X’ happening, this could destroy our main characters lives, so Emma has to go back as well to stop Zelena from succeeding in her plans to alter the time line, which she does. This way we dont have to worry about meetings etc. because the 1st time around they never did meet, but when Emma returns- Snowing remember ‘meeting’ her in the past now etc.
That makes a lot of sense. The only issue I guess I have is from a “what A and E have said before” stance. They said they’d never do time travel on the show. But I guess they can go with “Emma’s the Savior so she’ll be the one to go because she’s so powerful” (And Hook for reasons?)
"He was a lot of things to me" "The only conclusion was love"Action X The action Z want undone. Okay, So we must also consider how much does she know? how much of her knowledge of the past is correct? And if some of it is incorrect, how does that then effect her AR and is that some of the reason her AR ends up not working so well for her???
The more we talk the more I become convinced that Zelena is working off a false assumption, that being that Cora abandoned Zelena. So long as Zelena thinks Cora left her in the woods, then she feels justified in her actions. But if we, the audience learn otherwise, then that makes for dramatic irony.
Using the actual Scientific understanding of multible universes is alright, but I dont think its neccesary in trying to understand timetravel in Once’s universe. Since Once is a faitytale in which people are able to make giant cupcakes appear in their hand out of thin air.. I mean actual real World science dont really aply here
The writers will pretty much do whatever they want “rule” wise and say, “no one understand the actual universe anyway, so we can go with our own rules.”
"He was a lot of things to me" "The only conclusion was love"I don’t have much time to type, but stopped by to say hi and crack theories used to be my favorite thing to do so had to try to read through here.
Don’t have time to read every post, but here’s the thing with this show–it isn’t consistent enough in its internal logic to rule something out by saying “Why wouldn’t X powerful person just do y”–you have to invent some character based reason they didn’t do it. There’s no way to say logically they couldn’t have, so it turns into well, they didn’t WANT to do it for some reason. Rumple could have sought out a bean via Jeff’s hat like Regina did the apple, he could have found out about Tiny’s plant or the dried bean–for a guy that had foresight, he had an awfully fatalistic, rather than innovative apporach that we’ve seen ON SCREEN to him trying to get to his son. I invented reasons for that but it is ALL OFF SCREEN. The writers never explained it!
So with Z’s spell the same is true. We won’t know why Rumple didn’t do it, unless they tell us and if they don’t, we’ll have to assume it was too costly in his opinion or there were bad consequences of some sort that he feared. Or he was just so sad he didn’t think of it–doesn’t matter, as it doesn’t matter for a million other things in this story, like how Bae got off NL, or why a shadow could go to the world without magic or be trapped by a candle in a coconut, or how August even knew who Bae was or found him.
If the writers close these loopholes? Brilliant, but I am after the adoption story where of all the babies in the world “fate” led Henry to Regina, not expecting much in the way of a plausible character based reason for something to have happened or not happened. Explain why all-knowing Pan had his agents show up a day late and a dollar short? It makes no sense if he knew about Henry for so long that they would somehow lose them to a memory-fogged Mr. Gold, unless there was some foresight and planning on Gold’s part–but they didn’t SHOW US that! The way they DID show us the story, it was supposed to be a “legitimate” adoption, stupid because Regina doesn’t even legitimately exist in the countries of the land without magic but hand-waive away all such logical quibbles.
So Z’s plan, the writers could go a few different ways:
1) Actual Time Loop. In Back to the FUture and Loopers, agents who travel back in time ARE affected immediately by changes they make to the timeline.
2) Alternate Reality. Some sci fi stories have characters who end up in a different reality from their own, therefore remain unaffected regardless of what they do to their past selves.
3) Mix of the two –it starts off as a an actual loop and ends up a different reality (see Loopers, a movie that more or less implies that).
4) “It always Happened” –the wheel of time, idea that they used in LOST, that the past was caused by the future. I could see them doing this, as it is mystical and what they did in LOST, and fits the “magic” feel of the show.
If they do this, I think it is likely they won’t alter the events they showed in the narrative already, but rather, it will be FURTHER back in time they go. Then again, they’ve used many plot devices like memory curses or THE CURSE to alter personality and erode character development so maybe they would do what Grimm is saying and have Snowflake be Regina.
Anyway, if they do this crack idea–then maybe Snowflake is the origin of the Dark One curse. Maybe someone’s thrown that out already, as I said, didn’t have time to read through the whole crack thing, but if they do that, it would have a certain logic to it. True Love reversed–into the Dark One. So Snowflake would be Zoso or his predecessor. After whatever happens to take “our heroes” back in time, they eventually find a way back to the future, but Snowflake has to stay behind and grows up as the first Dark One, and Rumple ends up in the future curse free.
That sounds like a last season sort of plot line though. So if they do it, wouldn’t expect it to be obvious how far back in time they’ve gone or any of it right away.
Honestly though, I think they may just have Z cast a curse that makes it “as if” Regina had never been born, in terms of changing memories rather than actually changing reality at all. Why bother with the real thing when what you don’t know won’t bother you?
That could explain why Will Scarlet is on the cast next season, if WL is not included in her little curse world bubble, and he and Ana want to visit her family and realize everyone is cursed….
Anyway out of time to further shake out those thoughts, hope you’re all enjoying the show !
“If I had a world of my own, everything would be nonsense. Nothing would be what it is, because everything would be what it isn't. And contrary wise, what is, it wouldn't be. And what it wouldn't be, it would. You see?” -- Lewis Carroll, Alice's Adventures in Wonderland & Through the Looking-Glass
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