Emma + Baelfire = Swanfire

[Slurpeez]

I think it’s easier to bury your past in the sand than it is to deal with it. Emma said she tried to bury her old feelings, but they just came rushing back when she thought she’d lost Neal a second time. Emma is scared to death of losing Neal yet again now that she knows he’s alive. Yet, as long as Emma continues not to deal with her fears, those old feelings, misconceptions, and hurt will continue to resurface anytime a tragedy happens. That would just be avoidance, not growth. What if Emma dated Hook, in an attempt to forget about her pain, but then things didn’t work out with him either and they broke up? Well, because Emma didn’t do her homework of exploring her old relationship, she might be doomed to repeat mistakes of keeping men at arms’ length because she never found healing. But then, that’s not real growth then is it? Growth comes when we face adversity, when we examine our own history under a microscope to understand why we are the way we are, and then learn overcome our own nasty habits. While it may hurt, it may be hard, it may take time, learning to face one’s past can often help one to actually advance forward.

[Ranisha Pitts]

I kind of see that she might “date” Hook to try and get over her love for Neal. But I don’t think it would work. I can see a romance coming with Hook but I don’t see them as each other’s true love. More like moving on to the next phase in life. Hook being able to love again and Emma being able to confront the fact that she still very much loves and wants to be with Neal. Which is quite ironic if Hook is her eye opening of her feelings for Neal.

I keep thinking, here we have Neal who has lost or had to given up almost every love he could have, first his mother, than his father, than the darlings, than hook (?), than Emma. It is very strange and ironic that Hook would be the pulling factor in both the mother and the lover of Neal. Would history repeat itself? Would Neal be like his father and lose the woman they love to same Pirate?

I keep thinking that would just be very cruel and hurtful towards Nealfire. I know they say its been 300 years but it doesn’t matter it will still be hurtful. I think Neal could more that likely deal with any other but Hook has to be a bit much for him.

But I don’t want to forget Emma, she has experience a lot of pain and hurt, that I can not deny. Neal was home for her and first time she felt loved, wanted, and accepted. She absolutely glowed when she was with Neal. And than he was gone, and it hit her like a bag bricks. I’m sure she felt like that orphan girl again who wasn’t good enough to be love. Now she realize that Neal like her parents did love her, they always loved her but they all did what they thought was not only best for her but for the greater good.

Here we have two broken flawed humanistic realistic individuals that have found a deep and profound love for each other! Despite the pain and hurt, there is love, and love can cover a multitude of sins. Swanfire represent hope and second chances!

"I will be kind but I will speak my mind."

[RumplesGirl]

I kind of see that she might “date” Hook to try and get over her love for Neal. But I don’t think it would work. I can see a romance coming with Hook but I don’t see them as each other’s true love. More like moving on to the next phase in life. Hook being able to love again and Emma being able to confront the fact that she still very much loves and wants to be with Neal. Which is quite ironic if Hook is her eye opening of her feelings for Neal.

I think CS will be played out to a logical conclusion and that means Emma, being Emma, will run from Neal for a short time to see what life with someone else is like. But she realize that nothing can compare.

I keep thinking that would just be very cruel and hurtful towards Nealfire. I know they say its been 300 years but it doesn’t matter it will still be hurtful. I think Neal could more that likely deal with any other but Hook has to be a bit much for him.

I don’t think time is an issue either. It obviously haunts Nealfire to this day.

But I don’t want to forget Emma, she has experience a lot of pain and hurt, that I can not deny. Neal was home for her and first time she felt loved, wanted, and accepted. She absolutely glowed when she was with Neal. And than he was gone, and it hit her like a bag bricks. I’m sure she felt like that orphan girl again who wasn’t good enough to be love. Now she realize that Neal like her parents did love her, they always loved her but they all did what they thought was not only best for her but for the greater good. Here we have two broken flawed humanistic realistic individuals that have found a deep and profound love for each other! Despite the pain and hurt, there is love, and love can cover a multitude of sins. Swanfire represent hope and second chances!

YES. YES. and then YES.

"He was a lot of things to me" "The only conclusion was love"

[kfchimera]

I don’t really identify with Neal per se.  I think we can all relate to many aspects of various characters.  I relate to his desire to put his past behind him and make his own way.  I even relate to his dialect change as I’ve had that experience of wanting to fit in and assimilate with where I was.

We all do this, don’t we? I’m sure in real life we don’t run around saying “my feels” and “OTP” and whatever other handy terms we have picked up in fan culture yet it becomes natural for some of us  to use these phrases when discussing here.

The same thing applies but also to pronunciation.  Maybe they’ll explain Neal like a reverse Eliza Doolittle who actively learned to shed his more refined speech for more authentic street sound so he wouldn’t stick out.

In any case I  never had a hard time with the concept that Bae IS Neal.    I think it has been showing more this season of course, but the writers have just been dribbling out his story, because they tied it to a lot of the deeper mysteries of the season.

“If I had a world of my own, everything would be nonsense. Nothing would be what it is, because everything would be what it isn't. And contrary wise, what is, it wouldn't be. And what it wouldn't be, it would. You see?” -- Lewis Carroll, Alice's Adventures in Wonderland & Through the Looking-Glass

[Phee]

and my whole fandom thesis is that we like who we like because it’s a move from sympathy to empathy. Once you’ve aligned yourself with a character as more than just “oh I feel sorry for them” but rather “I understand them because in a way I am them” then their struggles becomes your struggles and if they can’t get a happy ending then there is no hope for you.

This! I was gonna mention the empathy thing, but I see RG beat me to it. Basically, I think Neal is a character who demands sympathy and empathy, because of all the crap he’s had happen to him, the sacrifices he’s made, and the lonliness he’s felt since he was 14, which was actually a couple hundred years ago, and in that time he’s had two blips of a familial love with someone, the Darlings and Emma, and both times fate didn’t allow him to keep his happiness and he had to actually step up and leave the people he loved, for their own sake.

I think if a viewer allows themselves to truly sympathise and empathise, and see things from Neal’s point of view, then they will inevitably want the poor guy to finally get his happy ending, and this season so far, he’s been, “Emma, Emma, Emma, love, love, love, Emma is the love of my life.” Therefore, if you let yourself really get Neal…by rights, you’ll want him to end up with Emma. (At the risk of sounding blunt, it’s probably easier for CSers to feel positive towards Bae as a kid, because that version of the character wasn’t a threat.)

Not everyone who dislikes Neal ships CS, (the person who runs the anti-CS tumblr isn’t a huge Neal fan, though they’ll defend him if CSers blatantly ignore canon facts about what he has and hasn’t done in an attempt to paint him as the devil), so it’s certainly possible for someone to just dislike Neal for non-ship reasons. But I think the case of people who DO ship CS and don’t like Neal, might have something with that whole resisting the sympathy/empathy thing.

And if you’re resisting feeling that for him, then you’re just not going to want to peel back the layers and see the complexities in him, and appreciate that he IS still that same person, he has the same strengths, and the same wounds.

Despite all he’s been through, the fact that he was living in a Manhattan apartment means that he pulled his life together, which is evidence of incredible strength. Imagine living for 200+ years, thinking fate has it in for you because the couple of times you almost had happiness, you had to give it up. What would even be the point of going on living if you’re not fated to ever have happiness stick, no matter how long you live for? So though he has his weaknesses, fears, hopelessness, which are all products of how many times life has crapped on him, he should be admired for also having the strength to have not just given up on life. Him changing his life to end up in Manhattan, even though we haven’t seen how it happened, it shows just as much strength as he had when he tossed that bean on the ground, way back when, if not moreso, considering how much more he’s endured since then. The fact that all that suffering hasn’t turned him into a horrible, aggressive person, is also testament to his strength.

rumplegoldfan, you might wanna check out ScrewballNinja’s Nealfire essay: http://screwballninja.tumblr.com/post/56885787912/whats-a-baelfire-and-why-does-it-whats-the

[CrownedWithLaurels]

For me, when I first watched Tallahassee, I wasn’t impressed much with Neal. I never disliked him or hated him. I understood love is sacrifice and that’s what he was doing the first time. But it just didn’t speak to me.My second watch all the way through, the second time I saw Tallahassee about a month later, I got it. It clicked for me. Their chemistry, and MRJ’s portrayal of Neal. I saw the subtlety of his face portraying different emotions. When I finally got sucked in to the emotion of the entire series, I was able to see the depth of Tallahassee. The depth of Neal. The depth of the emotions. It’s still amazing to me, to this day, how much MRJ can portray just through the variations in his FACE alone. 

And during that second watch, I realized there had to be more to his character than setting us up just to dislike him for leaving Emma. It was so so so clear to me in that moment. So, while I understand the initial flatness some people talk about seeing, I know how quick it changed for me once I really watched it through different eyes.

Also, Baelfire was probably my biggest tearjerker the first time I watched the series back in Nov/Dec of last year. I realized this whole series has been basically “about” him and Rumple’s search for him has effected everyone. When the hunches came that Neal was Bae, I couldn’t have been happier. I think his character has been right along the lines of Bae. In fact, Nealfire went through 309849048900494804930895089 times worse things for 300 years than anyone on this show yet that’s not an excuse. He’s still pure. He’s still full of love. We hear “evil isn’t born, it’s made”, well most of that “made” is a choice because Bae has still chosen light and not darkness. Evil has tried to make him since day one, and it hasn’t won. He’s still as sacrificial as ever and we’ve seen that play out with the series finale and in S3. Sacrifice is an unwavering proof of true, pure love. You’re not going to sacrifice your entire life, everything you know, even unto death if there is no love in your heart. Why do it at all?
While lack of sacrifice doesn’t equal lack of love, sacrifice most definitely proves pure love.

And that is where and how I connected. It did have a lot to do with Baelfire from the beginning. I feel like it’s depth in a non-flashy way. Humility and internal resolve. He’s had to have it over the years otherwise, he never would have made it. *sigh*

* weeeeps in the corner for hours*

 

P.S. a link to a new Swanfire chatroom has been going around tumblr. I haven’t spent much time in there yet, so we’ll see how it goes but I’ll give it a shot.

http://us14.chatzy.com/46821923205977

Keeper Nealfire's/Bae's scarf, Henry and Neal's bribery ice cream sundae, Baelfire's sword, the coconut map, and more.

[Phee]

Tumblr post that makes an excellent point about understanding Neal…

Emma: Did you know who I was when we met?
Neal: If I had I never would have gone near you.
Emma: Come on…
Neal: Come on? Come on what? I was in hiding. I came here to get.. away .. away …from all that…crap.

2X14, Manhattan

Looking back at this scene I think it paints a very different picture than what audiences first were lead to believe. At the time that this episode aired many people thought that Neal was hiding from his father. But, knowing what we know now, it looks like he was in hiding for a completely different reason. Not his father. Pan, the lost boys, home office, whatever you want to call them. The guy spent over a hundred years living in a cave/prisoner of Pan’s. He finally escaped and even though we don’t know the specifics of how he did (whether or not he did it on his own or Pan let him), we do know that he believed he escaped.

I think it’s safe to assume that Neal thought they might come after him again. Which is why he was hiding. Which is why he ran when he heard “package for 407” over the intercom of his apartment.

Knowing what we know now I refuse to accept that Neal left Emma because he was afraid of his father as a valid argument. There was something/someone out there that terrified him far more than his father and his daddy issues. And it is a real threat. One he endured for a very long time. Does it make him leaving Emma with no notice OK? No. But, I think remembering this information can allow people to understand his character much better now.

The bread crumbs have been littered all over the place on Neal’s character for those who wish to pay attention. I am hoping for an actual episode sometime that explores more of this.

https://www.tumblr.com/schmacky/66995580749/emma-did-you-know-who-i-was-when-we-met-neal-if

[kfchimera]

I think it does make more sense than him running from his Papa, in Manhattan but at the same time, I still don’t buy Neal ran from Emma in Tallahassee because he was afraid for himself.   I guess we’ll have to see more, but August says he has to stay away and that he is in the way of her breaking the curse and the writers have talked about it in that way as a sacrifice on his part.  At the same time he did cause Emma pain (as did Snow and Grumpy, to their respective loves), so it was not a clear cut “sacrifice” on his part alone.  He just lost more than he gained with that decision, but it seems  Emma lost even more.  I say seems since she went to jail, but he then was buried in all the guilt with no money, no car as he gave her everything, trying to be there with her in spirit because he was told he couldn’t actually be there, with her pain and his on his mind.  The writers stated he didn’t leave because he fell out of love with her.  Now its up to them if they want to show that on screen somehow in a more direct way.

So if the reason he couldn’t actually be with her was Pan would find her and kill her or something, then that would make the logic easier to understand of why he couldn’t have stayed, why his leaving demonstrated his love for her even if it didn’t seem that way to her or part of the audience.  It might even explain why he left so fast but this is up to the writers.  We’re way out on reading between the lines here, when we start to imagine the details.

As fans it is tempting to put 2 and 2 together, but what we need to remember is there’s always a box.  That mystery box could have anything in it.   It could be -8 for all we know, and suddenly 2 + 2 isn’t 4 at all even if it looks like it now, it’s this -4 and it makes no sense, until we get more story to explain.

Neal’s experience with Pan could explain more as well  some of why he didn’t come back when he got the postcard.  Pan had a good understanding I’d imagine of how to push certain buttons with Neal through Tamara, get to him in a way that while not magical or taking away his free will there, definitely exploiting the knowledge of the pain he carried.  Sort of how they got to Greg from this sweet little boy just looking for his dad to this zealot monster willing to do anything to even good people to stop the danger of magic.  Now we know Neal wasn’t in on the hate-magic club, not to that extent, but it reminds me of August’s sort of odd question to Tamara about “Are you here to steal the magic” thinking she WAS working with Neal.  We know he wasn’t working with her, but was her victim now.  Of course, we realize she and Greg were Pan’s victims too, misled all along (but they all did make their choices too).

I know the writers can change and peel back things so if they want they can shift meaning at any point.  So we go from S1 Regina has a hole and cannot love Henry to oh just kidding, with the curse broken she can!  So much for a void she could never fill.  So maybe Pan manipulated Neal through August, and it wasn’t true that he had to leave.  Perhaps it was just a cruel ploy that Neal fell for, because he’s the sort who does things like makes a deal with a shadow to take him instead, not realizing the shadow will come back anyway for the rest of the kids.

I hope the writers don’t trash what they had planned for Neal to make him suddenly into this sniveling, cowardly jerk of a villain, especially if that’s how they build up Hook as a hero, but so far I am not worried.  Neal is being written as the street smart man with a good heart that suffered but is not corrupted by all that loss.  He still has that sense of doing the right thing, the right way, and why it is important.  He might bend a few rules and take a few shortcuts, but he’s not  a stone cold killer type.  He cares about  who gets hurt.   The thing is, he’s apt to get some “plot stupidity” that is, as opposed to plot armor, things don’t go his way.  He trusts people when he shouldn’t or doesn’t trust when he could and as a result things get worse for him  no matter what.  He’s always behind the 8 ball even with mostly good intentions.  I say mostly because he’s not written as a saint, he does have his foibles.

 

 

 

 

 

“If I had a world of my own, everything would be nonsense. Nothing would be what it is, because everything would be what it isn't. And contrary wise, what is, it wouldn't be. And what it wouldn't be, it would. You see?” -- Lewis Carroll, Alice's Adventures in Wonderland & Through the Looking-Glass

[killianhookfan]

RumplesGirl wrote: and my whole fandom thesis is that we like who we like because it’s a move from sympathy to empathy. Once you’ve aligned yourself with a character as more than just “oh I feel sorry for them” but rather “I understand them because in a way I am them” then their struggles becomes your struggles and if they can’t get a happy ending then there is no hope for you.

This! I was gonna mention the empathy thing, but I see RG beat me to it. Basically, I think Neal is a character who demands sympathy and empathy, because of all the crap he’s had happen to him, the sacrifices he’s made, and the lonliness he’s felt since he was 14, which was actually a couple hundred years ago, and in that time he’s had two blips of a familial love with someone, the Darlings and Emma, and both times fate didn’t allow him to keep his happiness and he had to actually step up and leave the people he loved, for their own sake. I think if a viewer allows themselves to truly sympathise and empathise, and see things from Neal’s point of view, then they will inevitably want the poor guy to finally get his happy ending, and this season so far, he’s been, “Emma, Emma, Emma, love, love, love, Emma is the love of my life.” Therefore, if you let yourself really get Neal…by rights, you’ll want him to end up with Emma. (At the risk of sounding blunt, it’s probably easier for CSers to feel positive towards Bae as a kid, because that version of the character wasn’t a threat.) Not everyone who dislikes Neal ships CS, (the person who runs the anti-CS tumblr isn’t a huge Neal fan, though they’ll defend him if CSers blatantly ignore canon facts about what he has and hasn’t done in an attempt to paint him as the devil), so it’s certainly possible for someone to just dislike Neal for non-ship reasons. But I think the case of people who DO ship CS and don’t like Neal, might have something with that whole resisting the sympathy/empathy thing. And if you’re resisting feeling that for him, then you’re just not going to want to peel back the layers and see the complexities in him, and appreciate that he IS still that same person, he has the same strengths, and the same wounds. Despite all he’s been through, the fact that he was living in a Manhattan apartment means that he pulled his life together, which is evidence of incredible strength. Imagine living for 200+ years, thinking fate has it in for you because the couple of times you almost had happiness, you had to give it up. What would even be the point of going on living if you’re not fated to ever have happiness stick, no matter how long you live for? So though he has his weaknesses, fears, hopelessness, which are all products of how many times life has crapped on him, he should be admired for also having the strength to have not just given up on life. Him changing his life to end up in Manhattan, even though we haven’t seen how it happened, it shows just as much strength as he had when he tossed that bean on the ground, way back when, if not moreso, considering how much more he’s endured since then. The fact that all that suffering hasn’t turned him into a horrible, aggressive person, is also testament to his strength. rumplegoldfan, you might wanna check out ScrewballNinja’s Nealfire essay: http://screwballninja.tumblr.com/post/56885787912/whats-a-baelfire-and-why-does-it-whats-the

Hi again!!  Just to clarify, I don’t dislike Neal.  The problem is that I love Bae and want (and expected to be) just as enthusiastic about the grown up, present day version if Bae – just like I love Rumple and I love Gold.  I might not be thrilled with some things he has done in his past but all of the characters on the show have done some questionable things – and the basic premise of the show is to show that there is reason WHY everyone does the things they do, even villians like the EQ.  So I can still love Regina in spite of what she had done in her past understanding what drove her to it.  Not that I am saying Neal’s past is anything like Regina’s but I think you get my point.

There are a lot of CS shippers who don’t dislike Neal and really WANT to love him because of how much we love Bae and we struggle with why we don’t.  It isn’t at all that we don’t WANT to like Neal – it’s the exact opposite, we WANT to love him and we don’t get why we don’t feel the love for him.

I’m talking about talking it all completely out of context of any ship because, for me, it’s great to talk about ships but I love the show first and foremost so at the end of the day I care most about the character and plot development.  So my issue with wanting to bond with Neal as a character would be the same whether Hook was even on the show or not.  My reasons for preferring Hook with Emma have more to do with my own personal preference for the guy I think she should be with based upon my own history and experience that really doesn’t have to do with my bonding problem with Neal.  Unfortunately for me, the way the set up Emma and Neal’s past makes it difficult for me to see Neal as a good option, even if that means her other option is to stay single.  So I am not Hook vs. Neal at all.  I just happen to like Hook as a character.  Just like I like Rumple.

[Josephine]

The problem with some people is that they expected sweet teenage Bae to grow up into sweet adult Bae. Just think all of your own life experiences. Are you the same type of person? I know I’m not. I’m not completely different, but my 14 year old self was quite different in wants and desires, and even personality, from my thirty-something self. And that was just the result of normal life experiences.

Transfer that to the fictional world and Bae being bombarded with otherworldly experiences on top of being the very human situation of being abandoned by his parents. I’m shocked he’s as well adjusted as he is. He’s lost, at a young age, literally everyone he’s ever cared about and who has cared about him. By the time he gets out of Neverland, it’s no longer unthinkable that sweet little Bae has forever been changed and damaged. And we don’t even know what he’s gone through since leaving Neverland. I suspect my heart will break even more. Fast-forward to his time with Emma and it makes their situation even more heartbreaking for both parties. I see Neal as just as much a victim in all this as Emma is.

As for who you prefer, I don’t care for Hook. Like Neal-haters who claim it’s not because of SF, my dislike has nothing to do with CS. Its all personal preferences. Hook reminds me too much of Jack Sparrow, who I also disliked, and I just can’t emotionally connect to the character at all, even from the beginning. We all have our preferences.

Keeper of Rumplestiltskin's and Neal's spears and war paint and crystal ball.

[Author]

Posts