- This topic has 25,813 replies, 124 voices, and was last updated 6 years, 8 months ago by
.
-
Posts
-
i always go back to the example of when he looked through the pirate telescope at the family dinner at Granny’s. I watched that and said, aloud, “That’s stalkerish.” Other Roomie said, “Kinda creepy, kinda romantic…” NO
Reminds me of how Edward Cullen would sneak into Bella Swans room and watch her while she slept (and this is before they even properly knew eachother to make it worse). Some guys and gals saw that as romantic. That is creepy as heck to me. Doesnt matter who you are. if I saw someone watching me and my family eating dinner, or watching me sleep, i darn sure wouldn’t think “Awww he must really like me,”. It’d be a simple 911 call and a Rapunzel pan to the face to fix that right up. Different strokes for different folks I suppose.
Certainly, for me, it would be the latter.
For me as well!!
[adrotate group="5"]"I could have the giant duck as my steed!" --Daniel Radcliffe
Keeper Of Tamara's Taser , Jafar's Staff, Kitsis’s Glasses , Ariel’s Tail, Dopey's Hat , Peter Pan’s Shadow, Outfit, & Pied Cloak,Red Queen's Castle, White Rabbit's Power To World Hop, Zelena's BroomStick, & ALL MAGICRG, slurpeez and DSB: PREACH!!! I really don’t even get how there’s so much of a debate about the topic, it seems pretty clear cut IMO. onceanfuturekiki on tumblr often responds to people with the best, most straight forward and in depth posts on the OUAT rape culture topic.
Right. And the fact that it’s hotly debated or that people blatantly dismiss it goes back to something @Textbookone pointed me towards and something I mentioned in one of our critical thread: emotional truths. People don’t want to face the music that their favorite character or their favorite pairing is promoting something as vile as “rape” because rape is bad–full stop, end of conversation. Like DSB said Rape Culture = / = rape but putting that word anywhere near a “thing” makes it bad automatically. And if your character/ship is promoting said bad thing, then you, by extension, are promoting a bad thing. And that makes you bad (it doesn’t, it just means you’ve fallen into the same media traps that media WANTS you to fall into). And because human tendency is to distance ourselves from “bad” then we automatically reject the evidence that a thing is bad.
And really what is underlying this is our media culture and our consumption of it. This isn’t even a criticism of A and E. This isn’t even a criticism of ONCE; it’s of television. I’ve fallen victim to it, though I try to be more conscience of it now.
But it’s the romanticization of the pursuit: “look how much he loves her! Look at how much he cares! She clearly feels something but just won’t let herself feel, so he should keep up the chase because he is right and she is wrong and she’ll be better once she realizes how right he is!”
It’s NOT just Hook and CS–it’s television 101. It’s Harlequin and bodice ripping and supposed to be “sexy” but the problem is that suddenly critics of media and culture (which includes both TV and literature) are pointing out that when you put this in a “real” situation (which is what TV is supposed to be, escapism or not) it’s APPALLING and quite frankly ALARMING that we are holding these relationships and the pursuits of the man’s desires up as romantic.
And like I said, I’ve fallen victim to it too. I really like Olitz on Scandal but Fitz is a warped individual who uses sexual pleasure on Olivia to get what he wants. I don’t know how many times he has kissed her out of the blue (or done something equally scandalous), talked her into kissing him (god, that sounds familiar, right?) or challenged Olivia’s belief system about their relationship–which, side note, is why I almost stood up and cheered when Olivia told Jake that she isn’t choosing Fitz or him, she’s choosing Olivia. God…beautiful. Remember when Emma did that? And then what–more pursuit followed by her giving in and it being upheld as a good thing.
But like I said, this isn’t just ONCE or A and E. It’s media–in all its complexities. Put the shoes on the other foot. Make it so that the woman is going after the guy like crazy, hounding him at his place of work, watching him through a scope while he eats with friends and family, telling him how they should be together, ect. We’d say she was a “tramp” a “ho” and a stalker. But when the GUY does it…well, that’s romantic. (relevant side note: but did you know that ratings are, yes, first and foremost divided into the 18-49 category but within that rage the most important demographic is the 18-35 yr old WOMEN–I bring it up because TV is designed to attract a female audience and females have been told that this kind of activity is romantic and makes them special. It’s the same reason that instead of teaching men “hey! don’t rape!” we teach women “hey, don’t get raped by doing XYZ!” It’s always victim blaming instead of the fault of the offender…and THAT is rape culture)
By writing Hook and CS the way they have A and E are playing into an overused type of media. That doesn’t make then evil or vile…but doesn’t make it good writing either.
Anyway. That’s all I got right now.
"He was a lot of things to me" "The only conclusion was love"You probably disagree. Fine. But please remember where you are and that these issues are 1) incredibly triggering for some of us and 2) about 95% of the people in this DO NOT like Hook and trying to dismiss something that we see as a valid criticism of his character in this “safe haven” as being “ridiculous” is not…it’s not fun for us.
My apologies.
I always go back to the example of when he looked through the pirate telescope at the family dinner at Granny’s. I watched that and said, aloud, “That’s stalkerish.” Other Roomie said, “Kinda creepy, kinda romantic…” NO. This culture has warped our views to the point that we (general viewership we) interpret that scene as, “Aw, he loves her so much and she doesn’t return his affections, poor guy,) when in fact it is NOT romantic. If, last week, any of us had looked out of our windows at Thanksgiving to find someone peering in with a telescope, we would have flipped our junk and called the cops. Right? I mean, if you’d looked out your window during your family holiday meal and seen it, would you have thought, “Oh, there’s ol’ Johnny, the grocery bagger who always flirts with me… he’s so sweet, he’s got such a crush on me, maybe I should date him after all,” or “There’s creepy Johnny, now he’s turned into a stalker and I am now freaking out and frightened. I really hope a visit from the local police gets him to quit.” Certainly, for me, it would be the latter.
Good point.
It’s perpetuated in having Emma say lines like, “why don’t you curse the lips of someone I’d actually want to kiss,” and “I don’t trust you,” then having her “give in” in the VERY NEXT episode and start dating him. Just keep on keepin’ on boys, eventually she’ll see your charms and you’ll get the girl. NO. She.said.NO and he DID NOT LISTEN. THAT is rape culture.
This gif seems like it would go with your point quite well (though I have absolutely no idea what show this is from)
Reminds me of how Edward Cullen would sneak into Bella Swans room and watch her while she slept (and this is before they even properly knew eachother to make it worse). Some guys and gals saw that as romantic. That is creepy as heck to me. Doesnt matter who you are. if I saw someone watching me and my family eating dinner, or watching me sleep, i darn sure wouldn’t think “Awww he must really like me,”. It’d be a simple 911 call and a Rapunzel pan to the face to fix that right up. Different strokes for different folks I suppose.
Again, another good point, and I agree 100% about the Edward/Bella “relationship” being creepy and stalkerish.
Right. And the fact that it’s hotly debated or that people blatantly dismiss it goes back to something @Textbookone pointed me towards and something I mentioned in one of our critical thread: emotional truths. People don’t want to face the music that their favorite character or their favorite pairing is promoting something as vile as “rape” because rape is bad–full stop, end of conversation. Like DSB said Rape Culture = / = rape but putting that word anywhere near a “thing” makes it bad automatically. And if your character/ship is promoting said bad thing, then you, by extension, are promoting a bad thing. And that makes you bad (it doesn’t, it just means you’ve fallen into the same media traps that media WANTS you to fall into). And because human tendency is to distance ourselves from “bad” then we automatically reject the evidence that a thing is bad.
And really what is underlying this is our media culture and our consumption of it. This isn’t even a criticism of A and E. This isn’t even a criticism of ONCE; it’s of television. I’ve fallen victim to it, though I try to be more conscience of it now.
But it’s the romanticization of the pursuit: “look how much he loves her! Look at how much he cares! She clearly feels something but just won’t let herself feel, so he should keep up the chase because he is right and she is wrong and she’ll be better once she realizes how right he is!”
It’s NOT just Hook and CS–it’s television 101. It’s Harlequin and bodice ripping and supposed to be “sexy” but the problem is that suddenly critics of media and culture (which includes both TV and literature) are pointing out that when you put this in a “real” situation (which is what TV is supposed to be, escapism or not) it’s APPALLING and quite frankly ALARMING that we are holding these relationships and the pursuits of the man’s desires up as romantic.
And like I said, I’ve fallen victim to it too. I really like Olitz on Scandal but Fitz is a warped individual who uses sexual pleasure on Olivia to get what he wants. I don’t know how many times he has kissed her out of the blue (or done something equally scandalous), talked her into kissing him (god, that sounds familiar, right?) or challenged Olivia’s belief system about their relationship–which, side note, is why I almost stood up and cheered when Olivia told Jake that she isn’t choosing Fitz or him, she’s choosing Olivia. God…beautiful. Remember when Emma did that? And then what–more pursuit followed by her giving in and it being upheld as a good thing.
But like I said, this isn’t just ONCE or A and E. It’s media–in all its complexities. Put the shoes on the other foot. Make it so that the woman is going after the guy like crazy, hounding him at his place of work, watching him through a scope while he eats with friends and family, telling him how they should be together, ect. We’d say she was a “tramp” a “ho” and a stalker. But when the GUY does it…well, that’s romantic. (relevant side note: but did you know that ratings are, yes, first and foremost divided into the 18-49 category but within that rage the most important demographic is the 18-35 yr old WOMEN–I bring it up because TV is designed to attract a female audience and females have been told that this kind of activity is romantic and makes them special. It’s the same reason that instead of teaching men “hey! don’t rape!” we teach women “hey, don’t get raped by doing XYZ!” It’s always victim blaming instead of the fault of the offender…and THAT is rape culture)
By writing Hook and CS the way they have A and E are playing into an overused type of media. That doesn’t make then evil or vile…but doesn’t make it good writing either.
Anyway. That’s all I got right now.
You make an interesting point.
All magic comes with a price!
Keeper of FelixJust got done listening to the last ep of the Other Side Of The Mirror podcast. They lost me for a couple of minutes towards the end where they mentioned other shows they’re not into and mentioned that they dropped HTGAWM, but 99.5% of the time I just wanted to say PREACH over and over, so I figure you guys will appreciate it too and wanted to give a heads up. They basically recap the last 4 eps and point out everything they see wrong with the show as a whole.
Just got done listening to the last ep of the Other Side Of The Mirror podcast. They lost me for a couple of minutes towards the end where they mentioned other shows they’re not into and mentioned that they dropped HTGAWM, but 99.5% of the time I just wanted to say PREACH over and over, so I figure you guys will appreciate it too and wanted to give a heads up. They basically recap the last 4 eps and point out everything they see wrong with the show as a whole.
Aren’t they the ones who dropped OUAT after this last week? And I haven’t heard anything from Barbara Barnett recently. Guess she is really gone too.
"He was a lot of things to me" "The only conclusion was love"But like I said, this isn’t just ONCE or A and E. It’s media–in all its complexities
I think this is such an excellent point. Rape culture (rc in this post) is pervasive in all types of media, it is a CULTURE, it’s a cultural norm, and it’s something that needs to be acknowledged before it can be changed. To some degree, merely being aware of it is a win.
Example: Over Thanksgiving, I was at my parents’ and my mom found Gone with the Wind on TV. She flipped it on, figuring I’d be happy to watch it with her. As a teen and young adult, I LOVED that story. I read the book and sequel as a young teen and saw the movie shortly thereafter – it still sits on my bookshelf at my parents’ – and had the framed movie poster hanging on my wall. But what she flipped on was Rhett and Scarlett’s departure at the burning of Atlanta, where Rhett pulls her off of the carriage and demands a kiss. Holy.rape.culture. I was so uncomfortable watching that scene, watching Scarlett struggle against him, watching how BROKEN she was after he left. As a young adult, that was romantic – look, look, she just needs to give in to it! – but as an adult, it was nauseating (to the degree that I ended up excusing myself from the room, acutally.)
Gone with the Wind is considered a classic romance. That movie is from 1939. This is not a new trend… the trend is in recognizing it and calling a spade a spade.
Yes, the rc argument is part of the reason I am anti-CS. But my acknowledging that it’s rc is not because I ship SF and it’s not even because I’m anti-CS. These are three separate issues… 1) CS exemplifies rc, 2) I don’t ship CS, 3) I ship SF. The three are not inter-dependent.
Somewhere in the recesses of my brain, I have notes about a “maturity in shipping” post, about SF vs. CS and how what we learn as we grow in life influences what we ship. One of the things I want to talk about is a favorite ship of mine when I was 17-18-19… one that I can now look back on and see how MUCH it played into rc. Do I still ship it? Yeah, I do, I’ve shipped it for literally my whole adult life (despite the fact that it ended a decade and a half ago) and emotions don’t change that easily. But I can still acknowledge how terrifying certain aspects of the relationship were – and watching it now, there are scenes I watch simultaneously squirming in shippy happiness and cringing as I see the rc stereotypes played out.
If CSers want to ship CS, I am cool with that. But refusing to acknowledge the problems that exist in the relationship *or in the storytelling* is just futile. CS *does* play into rape culture. Likewise? I certainly hope all SFers realize that their relationship was likely illegal at the start. We can split hairs all we want about the morality or even actual chronology of the situation (and it should be unsurprising that I’m not terribly bothered from a moralistic standpoint,) but *legally* there was a six-year age gap and in Oregon where they met that was a legal issue.
(The irony, for me, is that I also have no question that the legal issue wasn’t intentional and was rather the byproduct of the writers’ inability to do math. Unfortunately, that doesn’t change that it exists. Further irony is that I’m not sure they could define rape culture if you asked them to, let alone understand how they’re playing into it.)
BOTH ships have problematic elements. The key difference for me is that based on what I’ve seen – which, it goes without saying, does not include every shipper, everywhere – fans of one ship want to sweep all of the problematic elements under the rug, while fans of the other would like to see the characters acknowledge, delve into and resolve those elements. I think that goes back to the maturity element; at 18, it’s very easy to assume “as long as everyone is loves each other and is happy in this moment, life will be perfect,” whereas by the time you’re 30 you realize it’s the struggle that makes it worth it – realizing that everyone screws up, and it’s how you fix those mistakes that defines who you are.
Based on what I’ve seen, I get the impression that CSers seem to think, “If only we can prove that SF was statutory, they’ll stop saying Hook is a rapist.” There appears to be a lack of understanding that a) the two aren’t mutually exclusive, and b) “convicting” the dead guy of a legal standard 1) doesn’t change the morality of the situation and 2) doesn’t absolve THEIR guy of HIS wrongdoings. It just means both ships are deeply flawed. (Nevermind that, for the most part, no one is saying Hook is a rapist, just that CS embodies rape CULTURE.) And until BOTH sides are willing to accept that they have deeply flawed ships, there will never be any ability to have a productive discourse on the subject.
And (please pretend I say this from a place of no optimism) – I think we’re more likely to see Neal Cassidy breathing again before that happens.
Cause this story needs some mending & a better happy ending...
I just finished listening to OSotM podcast that Phee linked to…
I don’t know that I’ve yelled PREACH so much in my life. And the best part is, they aren’t shippers so far as I know. They weren’t heavily invested in CSF…but they totally fed up with the story and how utterly stupid it’s getting. They talked about how Regina has been destroyed and how ONCE has “eviscerated” Rumple–all the inconsistencies, all the retcons, all the SHINY TOY SYNDROMEness that is the show instead of it having heart and depth.
BOTH ships have problematic elements. The key difference for me is that based on what I’ve seen – which, it goes without saying, does not include every shipper, everywhere – fans of one ship want to sweep all of the problematic elements under the rug, while fans of the other would like to see the characters acknowledge, delve into and resolve those elements.
And this–THIS–is why I started that love and romance thread over the summer. I was desperately trying to get people to see that love and romance, as presented on ONCE, is becoming increasingly problematic from a moral and storytelling standpoint, but it’s not just ONE ship–it’s all of them. It’s Belle begging for Rumple’s forgiveness and saying she doesn’t deserve him and then a few episodes later asking his permission to stay and work with the fairies and then just doing as she is told when Rumple wants to lock her in the shop (I almost shut off my TV then and there); it’s Robin saying that being with Regina means he isn’t a good man any more but that’s okay because instant sexual gratification and upholding this entire situation as “true love” or “soul mates” or even just romantic. OSotM brought up Scandal which I brought up, upthread, but the major difference is that Olivia/Fitz and Jake aren’t being held up as heroes who always win because good = winning. They are all pretty terrible people, even if Olivia is spectacular at handling things…the woman rigged a presidential election and is willingly committing adultery! But you never get the lesson of “just hold on to hope and everything will work out.” It’s not like on Scandal.
Anyway…back to what I was saying…each major ship on ONCE–Snowing, Rumbelle, SF, CS, OQ, and even SQ–are really troubling morally but a lot of times people who ship it refuse to acknowledge how…wrong these relationships are because (guess what I’m going to say): emotional truths . It’s a math equation.
X relationship is morally wrong. But I enjoy X. Therefore if X= bad morals and I = liking X then I = bad morals. But what people are missing is that media–the entity–wants you to like these things without questioning why you should be aware of their issues. So when A and E get asked about Graham and Regina it’s “well you never saw what was going on” because people love Regina and you can’t have them suddenly realize that she was raping him for 28 years because then your fans and viewers about liking a rapist and that makes them want to turn off their TV set and then…money goes bye bye.
And in case anyone hasn’t figured this out: TV stations…they really like money.
You want to like CS, SF, OQ, RB..fine! Like them. But dismissing how problematic all those relationships are simply because you ship it and you can’t acknowledge how messed up they are….that’s troubling. Especially in this day and age where Rape Culture is played out on a daily basis, every hour, for thousands of women everywhere who look at a character like Hook and a ship lie CS and see their own lives staring back at them. But instead of A and E/ONCE (and media in general) saying “this is wrong” it’s “this is romantic” and if a woman doesn’t feel that way (cause hey…why would I think some guy hounding me and ignoring my conflicted feelings at best and total disinterest at worse is romantic) then that makes the woman “cold, callous, wrong, frigid, unfun, an old maid, dried up, and a prude”
"He was a lot of things to me" "The only conclusion was love"Rape CULTURE =/= rape. It’s a thing I didn’t even know existed until relatively recently, or I should say, I didn’t know it had a name. The very culture whereby Hook declared he would “win” Emma’s heart *despite the fact that she wasn’t into it* and it was portrayed as romantic is where the issue lies.
That is a good point. Emma was portrayed as resisting Hook’s advances right up until 3×22. This awesome meta pretty much explores they why and how CS supports this idea of a “no means yes” and rape culture.
But like I said, this isn’t just ONCE or A and E. It’s media–in all its complexities. Put the shoes on the other foot. Make it so that the woman is going after the guy like crazy, hounding him at his place of work, watching him through a scope while he eats with friends and family, telling him how they should be together, etc…We’d say she was a “tramp” a “ho” and a stalker. But when the GUY does it…well, that’s romantic.
Have you seen All About Steve starring Sandra Bullock? It’s an interesting movie insofar as it portrays a woman chasing after a guy she likes as being “desperate” or “deluded” because the lady “can’t take no for an answer” despite the fact they’d had sex. In his mind, it was a one-time thing (which is what Emma said to Hook about that coerced kiss), but if the woman is the one pushing for something more then she is desperate. But if Hook is the one pushing for more with Emma, despite her saying it was a one-time thing, well then Hook is merely being “persistent” in his pursuit, because he believes “all women want it.” Umm how about, just no?
BOTH ships have problematic elements. The key difference for me is that based on what I’ve seen – which, it goes without saying, does not include every shipper, everywhere – fans of one ship want to sweep all of the problematic elements under the rug, while fans of the other would like to see the characters acknowledge, delve into and resolve those elements. I think that goes back to the maturity element; at 18, it’s very easy to assume “as long as everyone is loves each other and is happy in this moment, life will be perfect,” whereas by the time you’re 30 you realize it’s the struggle that makes it worth it – realizing that everyone screws up, and it’s how you fix those mistakes that defines who you are.
I think any SF shipper probably would acknowledge that Emma and Neal’s relationship had its faults. I mean he let August send her to jail. That’s pretty bad when first you hear about it. And yeah, he knocked up Emma, who was only on the cusp of young adulthood. And that’s all Emma had to go on for 10 years, thinking all that time that he didn’t love her, only to find out that he did, but that it was too late. Then, like Emma, you start to get the details behind it. When you hear about it from Neal’s perspective, you begin to realize he was a product of abandonment himself, but that he truly believed he was doing the selfless thing by letting Emma get home to save her family. Wouldn’t people claim Neal was a selfish son of a gun if he’d prevented Emma from saving her family? Neal was truly in a no-win situation. Emma came to understand that as well, albeit too late, when the emotional damage was done. And I think you’re right on about the maturity level of the shippers. At age 18, most teenagers still haven’t experienced their first true heartbreak, and they think that no one they love could ever hurt them (which interestingly enough, is the age Emma was when she wound up pregnant and alone). At age 30, you realize that real love is full of complexity, and that even people who love each other can hurt each other deeply (which interestingly enough is about the age Emma was when Neal came back into her life). Then it becomes a matter of deciding whether that love is enough to help salvage a relationship.
"That’s how you know you’ve really got a home. When you leave it, there’s this feeling that you can’t shake. You just miss it." Neal Cassidy
The topic ‘Emma + Baelfire = Swanfire’ is closed to new replies.