Emma + Baelfire = Swanfire

[heatherc1275]

TGIF!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 😀

 

[nevermore]

This is important

On the topic of shipper culture, I came across this about how different people relate to different ships, and I think it gives some interesting tools for thinking about OUAT. Essentially, I thought the whole idea of the “main” vs “beta” couple is interesting. From that perspective, Rumbellers and SF (with which I’d have probably identified at least at one point) would qualify as shipping the “beta” couple — the one where more is left to the imagination and interpretation, where the pairing is either not obvious, or emotionally complicated, and where you have to pay attention to context, subtext, and history. By contrast, with the “main” couple, the focus is more on the overt/passionate/probably gender-stereotypical relationship, which, back to @RG’s comments, explains why we now have to deal with the “cavemantic” disaster that is CS (*runs and hides before she gets clubbed over the head by angry CSers*)  So, the question becomes, as it might be with OUAT, what happens when a show begins to sink all its “beta” ships?

The other thing I appreciate about the analysis is the distinction the writer is drawing between love story and romance.

“A romance is a story that builds its characterisation around idealising the concept of romantic love. A love story takes that characterisation and tries to say something more fundamental about human nature.”

You might not share the writer’s preference (love story over romance), but I think with OUAT maybe we saw a show that began with love stories or potential love stories (lets call them romantic subplots), and then largely shifted to having romance as its central moral framework, with some (at this point quite unconvincing) lip service that this is about human relationships more broadly.

Just a thought…

[Slurpeez]

Essentially, I thought the whole idea of the “main” vs “beta” couple is interesting. From that perspective, Rumbellers and SF (with which I’d have probably identified at least at one point) would qualify as shipping the “beta” couple — the one where more is left to the imagination and interpretation, where the pairing is either not obvious, or emotionally complicated, and where you have to pay attention to context, subtext, and history. By contrast, with the “main” couple, the focus is more on the overt/passionate/probably gender-stereotypical relationship, which, back to @RG’s comments, explains why we now have to deal with the “cavemantic” disaster that is CS (*runs and hides before she gets clubbed over the head by angry CSers*)

@nevermore – You needn’t worry about offending CSers here. This is a Neal-friendly, pro-SF safe-space. To get into it, I think you provided some interesting insights. I would agree that the so-called “beta” relationships are being scarified on the alter of newer, more in-your-face romantic relationships like CS and OQ. Even the older, establishment “alpha” romantic relationship, Snowing, is being raked through the mud as Snow and Charming are undergoing character assassination with the casting of a dark curse, spousal sacrifice, and now soul-destroying baby snatching.

So, the question becomes, as it might be with OUAT, what happens when a show begins to sink all its “beta” ships?

I would say that the destruction of these “beta” relationships (e.g. Rumbelle, Swanfire, and even ScarletQueen) in favor of these “hotter” more physical romances (i.e. CS and OQ) is symptomatic of a broader, more general crisis. The writers compromised their original vision for the show. Instead of being a show about redemption, second chances, family and hope (e.g. the relationship between Neal and Rumple, or the reunion of Henry, Emma and Neal as a tale about reconciling a family and ending negative generational patterns), we have a story in which ultimately noble characters like Marian and Neal are scarified in favor of unrepentant pirates in leather and would-be adultery. The moral compass of the writing is all off. The main villain to sow what he reaps is Rumple. It seems karma only applies to the dark one these days, oh and Neal, because his one mistake is tantamount to him being the spawn of Satan. *sarcasm*

You might not share the writer’s preference (love story over romance), but I think with OUAT maybe we saw a show that began with love stories or potential love stories (lets call them romantic subplots), and then largely shifted to having romance as its central moral framework, with some (at this point quite unconvincing) lip service that this is about human relationships more broadly.

I’d agree with this thought. Despite Snow and Charming’s relationship being a romantic one, it was in essence, a love story S1. It was about them fighting for and sacrificing for one another, their family, and their kingdom. It was about more than just romantic platitudes and feelings, but about what the essence of love really is: sacrifice. But the entire narrative was not merely focused on Snow and Charming’s romance; it was centered around an entire family. It was about step-mothers and step-daughters, mothers and daughters, fathers and sons, fathers and daughters, and mothers and sons. That is why it was so beautiful when Emma’s true love turned out to be her son. S1 as a whole elevated the concept of maternal love over even the romantic love of Emma’s parents. These were the things that drew me in and touched my heart: Rumple’s love for Baelfire, Snow and Charming’s love for Emma, Emma’s love for Henry, and later on, Baelfire’s love for Henry and Regina’s love for Henry. Now, sadly, Henry is an afterthought of his remaining parents, his father is dead, his birth mom is at odds with her parents, and Rumple has been so altered by the death of his son that he’s nothing left to him except power. Everything is falling to pieces. And why? All because “happy endings aren’t what we think they are” (i.e. Emma’s, Henry’s and Rumple’s happy ending is dead). Baelfire, while not a primary character, was a very important one and the catalyst of the entire show since S1. Without him, the heart of the show is gone for viewers like me. These so-called “romances” ring hollow when the most important love story (i.e. the love between family) is compromised.

"That’s how you know you’ve really got a home. When you leave it, there’s this feeling that you can’t shake. You just miss it." Neal Cassidy

[Slurpeez]

P.S. I identify a lot with the writer of that article who wrote:

What about my tastes? I have mentioned this already, but I am very conservative and family-bound. It should come as no surprise that I hate couples who prioritise their passionate love affair over their family and friends. This is going to sound slightly stupid, but the best way to win my approval would be if the main character is a siscon. Anyone who would rather rescue his little sister in a pinch than his girlfriend is a Bro in my book.

Beyond that, I don’t really care as long as the two characters aren’t annoying and spend ages pointlessly denying their attraction to each other.

Basically, that comes down to me thinking that friendship and companionship is the best foundation to build a long-term relationship on. You’ll have your own values which you might emphasise more, but I’ll hold steadfastly to mine.

Family and friendship, even more than romantic feelings, are so fundamental in my book, too. Pairings like Rumle/Cora, Hook/Milha, Hook/Emma, and sadly even Regina/Robin just naturally don’t endear themselves to me. While romantic feelings can lead to family building and lasting love, I also desire the core of a relationship to be that of friendship and companionship, which can be found in a healthy family unit. I don’t want to watch a pairing tare a family apart or cause an otherwise honorable man to go against his better moral judgement. I was in favor of Robin and Regina up until 4b, because their relationship didn’t come at the cost of others and was about more than just them, but also a family. But then the writers made in near impossible for me to root for them when Robin compromised his honor when he thought he was still married to another. In the end, it was Zelena parading as Marian, but at what a cost did it come for Robin/Regina to be preserved — namely Marian’s murder by Zelena. Marian of the past met the same fate at Neal at the hands of the same woman.

In OUAT, I thought I was watching a story about how a dysfunctional family unit reconciled and mended generational hurts. While we got a taste of that, Baelfire’s death was really the continuation of past wrongs being repeated in my book. Even though Bae’s death was a sacrifice in a way, it was also a gratuitous death. Bae should’ve known better, and did, the price of dark magic; so him saying “to hell with the consequences” was so uncharacteristic, and a messy character assassination to make him look like a dimwitted “villain” (Hook’s words) while Hook got to revel in the downfall of his romantic rival for Emma’s affections. It was all the more messed up, too, because Hook could’ve been like a second father to Bae; Hook could’ve done the truly heroic thing and sacrificed for Bae, as an act of redemption for wronging Bae as child when he turned him over to Bae’s demonic grandfather. That is why Baelfire was a Bro in my book, but Hook is no hero. Whereas Hook only makes a “sacrifice” for the woman of his affection (which was no real, or lasting sacrifice seeing how Hook got his ship back), Baelfire constantly put the needs of his friends and family even before his own personal desires. He tried to save his father from darkness, even if it meant embracing the unknown. He counted the Darlings as his family, and scarified his freedom to save Wendy’s brothers. He scarified his own wishes of having a relationship with Emma so that she could find her family. He again went through the portal so that Henry wouldn’t have to grow up alone like he and Emma did. I was strongly rooting for Baefire’s sacrifice and real heroism finally being rewarded after spending a lifetime alone. Baelfire getting the family he’d always desired with his father, and more recently his son, Henry, would’ve been enough, and if he reconciled romantically with Emma, than all the better. Their love went deeper than romance anyway; they were family at the end of the day. Their little yellow bug represented home, love, and familial security that they never otherwise experienced as orphans.

"That’s how you know you’ve really got a home. When you leave it, there’s this feeling that you can’t shake. You just miss it." Neal Cassidy

[heatherc1275]

P.S. I identify a lot with the writer of that article who wrote:

What about my tastes? I have mentioned this already, but I am very conservative and family-bound. It should come as no surprise that I hate couples who prioritise their passionate love affair over their family and friends. This is going to sound slightly stupid, but the best way to win my approval would be if the main character is a siscon. Anyone who would rather rescue his little sister in a pinch than his girlfriend is a Bro in my book. Beyond that, I don’t really care as long as the two characters aren’t annoying and spend ages pointlessly denying their attraction to each other. Basically, that comes down to me thinking that friendship and companionship is the best foundation to build a long-term relationship on. You’ll have your own values which you might emphasise more, but I’ll hold steadfastly to mine.

Family and friendship, even more than romantic feelings, are so fundamental in my book, too. Pairings like Rumle/Cora, Hook/Milha, Hook/Emma, and sadly even Regina/Robin just naturally don’t endear themselves to me. While romantic feelings can lead to family building and lasting love, I also desire the core of a relationship to be that of friendship and companionship, which can be found in a healthy family unit. I don’t want to watch a pairing tare a family apart or cause an otherwise honorable man to go against his better moral judgement. I was in favor of Robin and Regina up until 4b, because their relationship didn’t come at the cost of others and was about more than just them, but also a family. But then the writers made in near impossible for me to root for them when Robin compromised his honor when he thought he was still married to another. In the end, it was Zelena parading as Marian, but at what a cost did it come for Robin/Regina to be preserved — namely Marian’s murder by Zelena. Marian of the past met the same fate at Neal. In OUAT, I thought I was watching a story about how a dysfunctional family unit reconciled and mended generational hurts. While we got a taste of that, Baelfire’s death was really the continuation of past wrongs being repeated in my book. Even though Bae’s death was a sacrifice in a way, it was also a gratuitous death. Bae should’ve known better, and did, the price of dark magic; so him saying “to hell with the consequences” was so uncharacteristic, and a messy character assassination to make him look like a dimwitted “villain” (Hook’s words) while Hook got to revel in the downfall of his romantic rival for Emma’s affections. It was all the more messed up, too, because Hook could’ve been like a second father to Bae; Hook could’ve done the truly heroic thing and sacrificed for Bae, as an act of redemption for wronging Bae as child when he turned him over to Bae’s demonic grandfather. That is why Baelfire was a Bro in my book, but Hook is no hero. Whereas Hook only makes a “sacrifice” for the woman of his affection (which was no real, or lasting sacrifice seeing how Hook got his ship back), Baelfire constantly put the needs of his friends and family even before his own personal desires. He tried to save his father from darkness, even if it meant embracing the unknown. He counted the Darlings as his family, and scarified his freedom to save Wendy’s brothers. He scarified his own wishes of having a relationship with Emma so that she could find her family. He again went through the portal so that Henry wouldn’t have to grow up alone like he and Emma did. I was strongly rooting for Baefire’s sacrifice and real heroism finally being rewarded after spending a lifetime alone. Baelfire getting the family he’d always desired with his father, and more recently his son, Henry, would’ve been enough, and if he reconciled romantically with Emma, than all the better. Their love went deeper than romance anyway; they were family at the end of the day. Their little yellow bug represented home, love, and familial security that they never otherwise experienced as orphans.

Quote

THIS. THIS!!! ALL OF THIS TO INFINITY. This is why I am no longer watching this show. Everything that I loved so much about it has been sacrificed and thrown away for things that are cheap, not honorable, not lasting, and completely against the original concept of the show. I couldn’t have put that better myself Slurp. *sad fist bump* 🙁

 

#MoreBOOMLessGloom

[Josephine]

Don’t ever feel the need to apologize here about your dislike of CS. You can be assured that you are in similar company here. None of us can be counted toward supporting that ship.

I think we’re actually seeing now what happens when you destroy, alter, and/or ignore the beta and even alpha ships of the series that were initially created. Ratings fall and the story suffers. Now, I don’t watch Once for shipping (well, I watch it to mock now and for Bobby because he’s a freaking brilliant actor). I started because of my love of fairy tales. The idea of them being twisted and altered gave me hope that they’d return to their European roots as morality and cautionary tales, not just propaganda for Disney. And at the beginning it wasn’t all about Disney. It turned into a series about love stories with deeper meaning and families who are intertwined and trying to fight to stay together. The ships and stories that I fell in love were an organic outcome of the story. Snowing fighting for their people and family, Rumple literally moving worlds to find the son he abandoned, Emma reuniting with her son and discovering her own roots, Rumbelle falling in love, and the catalyst of everything returning to the fold and learning to become a parent and also a son and friend to the people of his past. It was a beautiful, poetic story.

So, we know what happened. They killed off the sun in our universe of characters and there is now no gravity to keep everyone orbiting to maintain a cohesive story. What happens when the sun dies? Everything implodes and is sucked into a black hole of nothingness. That is this show. Neal is gone. The catalyst is taken out of the equation so now everyone’s actions make no sense. With everything spinning out of control, they try to add depth to Snowing, which only makes them look stupid and as self-centered as the villains. They pair Emma with a crotch-rot pirate who comes off as more sleazy and like a selfish stalker than a true life partner and helpmate. And they destroy a beautiful love story of a monster who had found love despite not deserving it and his chance of having happiness with his true love and his son once again and totally ignore his new-found connection to a grandson.

And what is the real payoff of all these changes? You have a shiny sexy couple of CS that appeals to a certain demographic and probably focus groups well, but lacks depth or real heart, Snowing is changed to the point of being unrecognizable and cringe-worthy, Rumbelle is dead and Rumple has turned evil because they feel he’s just more fun evil, ignoring any character growth he received in the first two and half years.

I think the show runners have to realize that online fandom does not equal the GA (general audience). The ratings are down for a reason. You can’t make up an excuses for everything: the weather was nice, it’s daylight savings time, it was a holiday, there was an awards show or football was on. If every little blip on the radar is going to affect ratings that much then something is wrong with your show.

Wow, I didn’t mean to rant on like this and realize it probably won’t be read over but I just had to get it all out. It’s so upsetting that a once wonderful show has been reduced to this point.

Keeper of Rumplestiltskin's and Neal's spears and war paint and crystal ball.

[PriceofMagic]

I think Beta couples are more popular with audiences than Alpha couples because they’re NOT being shoved down the audience’s throats all the time. The audience wants to see more of them. For example, in Season 1, Snowing was the alpha couple and RumBelle was the beta couple.

Currently CS and OQ are the alpha couples on the show and they are being rammed down the audience’s throat. Whereas at least CS had something resembling a form of build up, OQ is just being flung at the audience by the writers at every opportunity and being told they have to like this ship “because pixie dust said so”. There is no build up, there is no emotional connection.

Hook has no storyline outside of CS, Regina’s storyline is predominantly OQ whenever Robin is on the scene. It is a real shame in Regina’s case that this one strong independent woman is now reduced to pining over a man when she’s not with him, that her happy ending has to involve a man, her whole life is now revolving around being with this man.

All magic comes with a price!

Keeper of Felix

[Slurpeez]

Along the lines about what we’ve already discussed, I’m going to post a huge qualm I have about the destruction of the Charming family dynamic based on recent events and the latest sneak peek for 4×18.

The third sneak peek is just plain annoying. While Snow and Charming were in no way justified in what they did, and while Emma has every right to be incensed over what they did to Lily, Emma’s double standard is starting to grate on my last nerve. Emma may hold her parents to a much higher standard than everyone else, seeing how they’re her parents and they call themselves heroes, but her blind refusal to look at them as human and fallible while giving a pass to Hook and Regina, who’ve either left her for dead or actively tried to kill her, is just plain outrageous.

And Snow’s not helping matters either, because she is self-satisfied in saying she was actually justified in her horrible decision to cast Emma’s potential for darkness into an innocent child. Snow’s continuing to rationalize her terrible decision just shows her outright hypocrisy. Snow had to learn the lesson from her own mother to keep goodness in her heart, but she didn’t have enough faith in Emma’s ability to freely choose whether to pursue goodness or darkness. Snow doesn’t believe in Emma’s autonomy or ability to make moral decisions for herself. I fully understand why Emma is upset with her parents, and her mother in particular. Yet, if Emma’s going to hold her parents to such a high standard, why does she not also do the same to Hook and Regina, who’ve committed way more dark and dismal crimes than her parents?

Emma is now treating her parents the same way she treated Neal. This version of Emma is unforgiving to those who love her most, possibly because they hurt her emotionally the most by letting her go to fulfill her destiny. But then again, Emma is placing her trust in known killers (Hook and Regina) who’ve actively, knowingly, and intentionally harmed Emma and endangering her very life! Emma continues to resent her parents and Neal for trying to let her fulfill her destiny, yet welcomes Hook and Regina with open arms. The villains deserve forgiveness and absolute trust, but not Neal or her parents it seems. They’re undeserving of compassion in Emma’s eyes.

I really hate what has become of Emma and Snow’s relationship since S1. I miss their friendship and their closeness. Yet, ever since Emma discovered Snow was her mother, she’s held her at arms length while not treating her father that way. I suppose it’s understandable on one level, especially since Snow still seems to think she was right to allow an exorcism on her unborn daughter. I just weep for what has become of Emma’s relationship with her parents, especially when she was just getting used to them, opening up to them, and calling them mom and dad most of the time. I’m especially saddened that now Emma’s especially close personal and professional relationship with her dad is effectively ruined, too.

Now Emma will run into the arms of her questionable villain-turned-anti-hero boyfriend and come under the influence of her new bestie, the former Evil Queen. Because Emma hanging out with and being under the influence of people who openly struggle with darkness themselves is the best thing for someone with as great a potential for darkness as Emma. Maybe Emma feels she can identify more with them, but it just sounds like a slippery slope. Hook already brings out the worst in Emma (e.g. her treatment of Will).

"That’s how you know you’ve really got a home. When you leave it, there’s this feeling that you can’t shake. You just miss it." Neal Cassidy

[RumplesGirl]

I would say that the destruction of these “beta” relationships (e.g. Rumbelle, Swanfire, and even ScarletQueen) in favor of these “hotter” more physical romances (i.e. CS and OQ) is symptomatic of a broader, more general crisis

Yes.

This isn’t even strictly an OUAT problem; it’s media’s problem, especially in an age where TV shows are expected to have toes (if not whole limbs) in social media where they can get ideas and hastags and ships trending while the show is airing live. The writers aren’t just writers anymore; they have to understand how fandom works. (and this is why A and E fail on multiple levels)

Don’t ever feel the need to apologize here about your dislike of CS. You can be assured that you are in similar company here. None of us can be counted toward supporting that ship.

Yeah, to back this up: don’t worry @Nevermore.

I have to keep a level head as keeper of the keys and grounds at Hogwarts, but everyone here knows that I *loathe* CS with the fire of a thousand suns.

really hate what has become of Emma and Snow’s relationship since S1

Me too. Me too.

And when I remember that the writers originally wanted Emma and Snow’s “lost girl” talk in NL to be between Emma and Hook, I die on the inside.

"He was a lot of things to me" "The only conclusion was love"

[Twice Upon A Time]

I love being back I was in London studying I like being back  I especially missed this crazy random place where anyone at any given moment would make me break out laughing – also OUAT took SF from me and now they took ScarletQueen -I’m bitter

[Author]

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