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Hook can get run over by a truck, brush himself and walkaway….Rumple however gets run over by a truck, and he’s deader than a duck. Examples of this show in the blackmail….Everyone knows Rumple tried to blackmail Hook, but no one knows Hook tried to blackmail Rumple first, and more than likely never will!
Exactly. When Hook blackmailed Rumple the first time to get Rumple to help, it wasn’t so bad. It wasn’t good but it worked. However, when Hook went back the second time and tried to blackmail Rumple again, this time for self-gain, I lost a lot of sympathy for Hook and didn’t feel sorry for him at all when Rumple started using him as an errand boy. If Hook wants to play with fire, he’s going to get his fingers burnt. Not to mention the fact that Hook was threatening to break Belle’s heart if Rumple didn’t give him what he wanted.
I still maintain that, until the moment when Rumple was actually puppetting Hook through the heart (and even then Hook was able to overcome it briefly to grab Emma’s hand), Hook still had a degree of free will. Essentially there was no reason why Hook couldn’t make Rumple’s life difficult up to that point. Rumple couldn’t crush Hook’s heart until the stars aligned and he made no secret that he was going to crush Hook’s heart regardless of what Hook did, so Hook had no incentive to stay in line. We’ve seen with Graham when he saved Charming that there is still free will even when the heart is in someone else’s possession so Hook could’ve done more to save himself. However the writers wanted the audience to think “poor Hook” when the truth is closer to “Hook kind of brought it on himself”.
It’s different situation but the emotion behind is the same: if you’re dying or are going to destroy the world, then I’m going with you. With Emma and Hook it’s horrible and cliche and only serves to make Hook look good and Emma look weak. With Xander and Dark!Willow it was one of the most beautiful things I’ve ever seen.
Totally, but that sort of emotion would only work because of the characters’ incredibly rich history together. Without that depth (and I think CS doesn’t have that depth at all), you get something that just comes across as petulant and overblown.
I agree 100%. I think what made that Xander/DarkWillow scene so great was that it wasn’t romantic love that saved the day but platonic love. That deep friendship between the two had been there since the start of Buffy and this scene was at the end of season 6 so there were six seasons worth of development between the two characters.
Hook was only introduced in season 2 and CS didn’t really become official until season 4/ very end minutes of 3B. CS have had only one season of “development” though Hook acting like Emma’s lapdog is hardly what I’d call a strong basis for a love story. The only two couples on the show that have a strong enough connection to mirror the yellow crayon scene would be either Snowing or RumBelle but they won’t do that. SwanFire would’ve been the other couple with a deep enough connection but again not going to happen.
Speaking of that, it could be that breaking the Dark One curse will be a big CS moment but I would not rule out it being a big Saviour Queen (SQ galore Subtext ) moment either. Regina is the reason Emma took action the way she did, when she did, and the writers love to write Regina saving the day.
You make a good point here and that would fit with the yellow crayon platonic love.
[adrotate group="5"]All magic comes with a price!
Keeper of FelixSpeaking of that, it could be that breaking the Dark One curse will be a big CS moment but I would not rule out it being a big Saviour Queen (SQ galore Subtext ) moment either. Regina is the reason Emma took action the way she did, when she did, and the writers love to write Regina saving the day. They can always follow it up with a long CS kiss and wedding to soothe the shippers, and then say look, friendship and family saved the day!
A couple of us talked about this elsewhere but there is a huge difference between the show they are telling and what they are showing.
Telling? CS. they keep telling us that Hook and Emma are in love and it’s so great and blah blah blah.
Showing? Swan Queen. It’s absolutely baiting the queers and those who support SQ.
Anyways…happy Saturday
"He was a lot of things to me" "The only conclusion was love"Some real impressive deep discussion here.
Nevermore: If the writers can pull Emma purifying herself because the love she has for friends and love ones and herself. But this is just connect the dot set up for CS true love kiss. however I can see SQ platonic love working together, season 2 finale we had Emma and Regina combining their magic to stop SB from being destroyed. I would love for Henry to break his mother’s curse going back to Henry (laughs because that is never going to happen). I think love would break the Dark Curse, it most likely CS true love kiss.
Although if Emma is Dark Vader now, Dark Vader resisted the darkness because the life of his son was at risk and he choose to save his son. Of course he died in the end….
Like I said I don’t forsee myself eating crow.
@Kfc you are very welcome. Yeah they loss real deep emotional internal conflict its so superficial now.
"I will be kind but I will speak my mind."
My big hope really is the writers remember this show works best when it is not Once Upon a Woobie Villain, or Once upon a Ship.
I think they’ve come to the conclusion that what they really need is Once Upon a Woobie Villain Ship. Hence, CS.
Exactly. When Hook blackmailed Rumple the first time to get Rumple to help, it wasn’t so bad. It wasn’t good but it worked. However, when Hook went back the second time and tried to blackmail Rumple again, this time for self-gain, I lost a lot of sympathy for Hook and didn’t feel sorry for him at all when Rumple started using him as an errand boy. If Hook wants to play with fire, he’s going to get his fingers burnt. Not to mention the fact that Hook was threatening to break Belle’s heart if Rumple didn’t give him what he wanted.
This is what leaves me scratching my head. Why do the writers continue to show him being so shady if he’s so reformed? Emma sees Hook as a hero, as someone who has turned his life around, but even he isn’t so sure of that. He called himself a villain in 4b and was worried about what the author might to do to him. Why include the fake “cursed hand” incident that revealed Hook himself was doing those dark things in the same episode as the CS date if the audience, who knows better than Emma, is meant to root for this relationship? Why have Rumple say the following if they want the audience to view Hook as a hero now?
“This hand is nothing but a lump of flesh. The only thing it did was give you permission. Permission to be the man you really are: not some puppy dog chasing after the object of his affection, but a ruthless pirate who will stop at nothing to get what he wants.” -Rumple
I get that Hook is a rogue, a bad boy, but Emma thinks he is now a good boy who does whatever she tells him to do. He hid from her the truth about being the one to antagonize Rumple in the first place or trying to blackmail him to get his hand back. Hook still constantly conceals the truth from Emma (e.g. punching Will, what his past is with Ursula). All Emma sees are the “good” parts that Hook wants her to see or believe.
What Emma thinks: Hook traded his ship for her and came back for her.
Canon: Hook spent the missing year pirating. Hook “killed” BB for his ship (before Ariel saved BB). Hook spent the year committing highway robbery, until Neal sent him the message to go get Emma.Emma: Sees Ariel and Eric reunited in the magic mirror and assumes Hook is responsible for their reunion.
Canon: Hook takes the credit for reuniting a couple who loves each other, despite the fact he did nothing of the sort. He actually refused to help Ariel.Emma: She thinks Hook was a stand-up romantic guy on their date, and that Rumple was the one who blackmailed Hook about the hand. Hook was then abused by Rumple.
Canon: Hook tried to blackmail Rumple for his hand, which he then used to punch Will Scarlet, which he threatened to kill Will over if ever he reveal the truth to Emma. He then hid from Emma the fact that Rumple had his heart.Emma: Doesn’t care about Hook’s past with Ursula, just that he lied about knowing her. All Emma sees is that Hook reunites Ursula with her dad and gives her back her voice.
Canon: Emma doesn’t know that Hook tries to blackmail Ursula and then holds a gun to her head.And these are just the recent things about Hook’s darker nature that he tries to keep hidden from Emma, probably because he’s ashamed of them. That little speech Hook gave Emma about the importance of forgiveness just smacks of irony. Here he is continuing to harbor resentment towards Rumple (understandably, since Rumple did try and kill him); yet Hook is the one telling Emma she shouldn’t be holding a grudge. That’s pretty hypocritical. What Hook said about Snow and David actually applies to himself: he tries to keep hidden certain unsavory aspect about himself from Emma, because he wants her to like him. He is ashamed of his own darker nature, so he conceals it from her.
Normally, a guy who hides the truth from the woman he supposedly loves gets kicked to the curb (e.g. Belle banished Rumple for doing that very thing), unless he comes clean, asks for forgiveness, and then actually changes for the better. Emma doesn’t see, or willfully refused to see, that Hook doesn’t own up to what he does, even in the present day. Instead, Emma just said, “I’d like them more if I’d known they turned themselves around. I like it when people find their good hearts along the way.” I.e. Emma wants to believe Hook is being totally upfront with her (they way her parents weren’t), but Hook is really describing himself, that he isn’t owning up to what he has done because he wants Emma to like him. There is a split: Emma thinks Hook has turned his life around is upfront and honest with her. Yet, Hook is all but saying he’s not.
Of course, probably making Emma into the Dark Swan is going to make her identify with Hook more. The only way to resolve Emma dating a bad boy is to make her bad, too. That is why we have Emma’s “potential” for darkness emerging suddenly in 4b. That is why Emma is suddenly holding a gun at Lily’s head the way Hook held a gun at Ursula’s head. The writers realized they have to drag Emma’s characterization through the mud if she’s going to end up with a rogue like Hook. They have to tarnish the savior a bit, precisely because she was too good for him up until S4, which incidentally, is precisely when she started dating a pirate. The writers have to darken her because they can’t exactly make their bad-boy heart throb into a good Prince Charming figure, because that would make Hook into a “boring” old hero type (which, he’s not, according to the canon events I just listed). Emma will suddenly forgive Hook for not being up front with her, if and when she ever even finds out about all he’s been hiding from her. She’ll no longer have any room to complain because she will have done some bad things as the dark one. In fact, Emma will be the one asking Hook for forgiveness for all the misdeeds she’ll likely commit as the Black Swan.
"That’s how you know you’ve really got a home. When you leave it, there’s this feeling that you can’t shake. You just miss it." Neal Cassidy
There is a split: Emma thinks Hook has turned his life around is upfront and honest with her. Yet, Hook is all but saying he’s not.
And here’s the thing for me: if the writers were conscious of that, it would make for a meaty story line. Emma, thinking her beau is one thing but turns out that he’s leading a bit of a double life. The internal struggle then for Emma is “is love enough” and she has to weigh her responsibilities as a human, as a mother, as the Savior. It would deep and meaningful to see how both she, Hook, and their surrounding friends and family (what does Regina really think about Hook spending so much time with Henry? Is Charming okay with Emma dating someone so deceptive?) deal with those issues.
The problem is that the writers don’t recognize that their character is causing so much cognitive dissonance as @Nevermore put it. They seem to be completely unaware of how unstable Hook’s character is. In interviews it’s about how Hook is a redeemed hero and how much he cares for Emma and how he knocked down her walls, ect ect ect. But they never address the fact that when he’s not around Emma, he’s not this Woobie Pirate with puppy dogs eyes.
"He was a lot of things to me" "The only conclusion was love"@Slurpeez, that post was everything and on point!!!!
God Bless Cruella De Vil & Ursula…I swear they represented All of us!
Oh Ursula…
But at least you tried!
"If you go as far as you can see...you will then see enough to go even further." - Finn Balor
Oh, and RG: Something weird is happening with this thread that’s causing it to always jump to page 3 whenever I post.
Nothing weird I promise. When threads hit a certain amount of pages it no longer takes them back to page one. When we hit 1000, it took us to page 2 instead of page 1. Now that we’re 2000+ pages strong, it takes us to page 3
What I mean is, it’s not going to the page the post is on. The same thing is happening with the anchored links on the corners of each post. For example, the post I am replying to has an anchor which links to https://oncepodcast.com/forums/topic/emma-baelfire-swanfire/page/3/#post-304883.
Wow, @Slurpeez that’s an amazing analysis, and pretty much puts into words everything that’s been bugging me about Hook. Surely, the writers must be aware of all these contradictions? I mean, there’s no way they can possibly be this oblivious. Can they?
About Dark!Emma, TLK and CS… I know they won’t do this, of course, but the whole Darkness plotline makes me think of Ursula LeGuin’s A Wizard of Earthsea, if anyone here has read it. (It’s sort of the ancestor of fantasy YA long before Harry Potter was a twinkle in JK Rowling’s eye). I read it years ago, but the premise, not to be too spoilery, is that Ged, the protagonist is a young wizard who accidentally unleashes a “Shadow” during a ritual gone wrong, and this entity pursues him through much of the book (which is a coming of age story). The way the plot is resolved, however, isn’t what one would expect — [spolier] as the Shadow eventually catches up to Ged, and he is forced into a final confrontation, he realizes it was a part of him all along [/spoiler] — and has these philosophical or maybe cosmological overtones that would work so well with Emma’s Savior/True Love Incarnate etc subplot.
Of course, we probably will get CS TLK, and it’ll be as unsatisfying as we’re all expecting it to be. (But I’m still holding out for the other shoe to drop and Hook revealing his true colors.)
What I mean is, it’s not going to the page the post is on. The same thing is happening with the anchored links on the corners of each post.
Like I said…that is supposed to happen because of the number of pages we have reached. When you post in SF, it will ALWAYS take you to page 3 until we hit 3,000 pages (most likely) and then it will take you to page 4 after you post.
Surely, the writers must be aware of all these contradictions? I mean, there’s no way they can possibly be this oblivious. Can they?
Yes they can
"He was a lot of things to me" "The only conclusion was love"
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