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ut they do get a pass. Regina killed an entire village, nothing happened. Hook got women drunk as a “tactic’ to lure them back to his ship for hanky-panky (as well as all the other stuff already listed by me, Bar and POM), nothing happened. Hook shot Belle, nothing happened. Rumple killed people in his early days as DO, nothing happened (well, actually you can argue that he lost his son because of his actions, so there’s a recompense there.). The villains on this show get a complete pass except for the seasonal arc ones and they usually die because their arc is over. I think we’re using offended in the wrong sense here. Yes, villains do bad things, but I’m allowed to find those actions reprehensible and horrifying. You’re basically saying that it’s okay that they do these things and get that free pass (which they do get on this show) because “villains.”
right, let me clarify here. Whether they ever have to atone for their actions is entirely separate from what I’m saying. I’m simply saying in the moment, when these bad guys do or say these bad things, I’m not offended. If you are offended by the writers for not addressing these actions later on (Like Regina killing a village, and Hook shooting Belle, etc) then that is totally valid. I just meant in the moment when they are doing these things, it doesn’t bother me. Not addressing the repercussions of that, especially if they try and redeem the character, absolutely is annoying and sure, maybe offensive. But yes, when you are writing a villain type of character, it is ok for them to do bad things, otherwise they would not be a villain. Like how would you write a villain in a story if they can’t do bad things?
[adrotate group="5"]Of course villainous people do villainous things in narrative. Voldemort killed Harry’s parents to drive the narrative but that doesn’t negate that it’s murder.
So this offended you?
Simply by saying “oh he was a villain then” doesn’t cut it. That doesn’t lessen his actions nor mean that he doesn’t have to pay for them in some regard.
This I agree with. If they are trying to redeem a bad character, which in this case they are with Hook, not having him face up to it and atone for it and simply saying he was villain before really doesn’t cut it. Again, I really was just talking about in the moment when these villains say or do these bad things.
I’m simply saying in the moment, when these bad guys do or say these bad things, I’m not offended.
I think you’re definition of offensive is a little too narrow. It doesn’t just mean that you feel personally attacked by an action. It literally just means something that’s very unpleasant. Synonyms include: abhorrent, abominable, appalling, awful, disgusting, distasteful, dreadful, evil, foul, fulsome, gross, hideous, horrendous, horrible, ect ect ect.
Rape and murder are all of those things. So when we say it’s offensive, it doesn’t mean to the personal you–your very self as if the action has been perpetrated on your. It means something *insert synonym of your choice*
I don’t think you’re trying to say that rape and murder–and any actions taken by the villains–aren’t any of those *synonyms* but that’s what offensive means, not just something that you personally take as hurtful.
ETA
And just so everyone is on the same page, when I said offensive three pages ago to describe the Hook/Emma moment that is my “moral event horizon” I used it as an adj: “it was one of the most offensive thing I’d heard on this show.”
Insert a different synonym if you want, but my usage there grammatically used to describe the noun (thing) which is clearly incapable of feeling hurt or angry, and I was not the subject there until the second clause.
"He was a lot of things to me" "The only conclusion was love"I don’t think you’re trying to say that rape and murder–and any actions taken by the villains–aren’t any of those *synonyms* but that’s what offensive means, not just something that you personally take as hurtful.
Yes haha very true. I certainly don’t feel like rape and murder are not any of those synonyms you listed. They are. What I am simply saying is we should expect villains to exhibit this behavior. So while murder is terrible, it is television, not real life. Someone just got killed on my screen because that person was a bad person vs. someone just got killed down my street because that person is a bad person. You have to separate tv from real life at some point right? We are supposed to be appalled (or if you would like to use the word, offended) by these actions. It is written as such. But don’t go blame the writers for a line a bad person said. Hook was bad. He made a sexual joke that was very “offensive.” Great, he’s a villain. Once they start using those lines as romantic is where I draw the line and agree with you. No doubt. But in that particular moment, I don’t think we were supposed to think of it as romantic, Emma certainly didn’t.
All fair points. He obviously does things that are not great. And although I think you are quick to jump to things like emotional manipulation when Hook says things like he’s afraid he’ll revert back to his old self if it wasn’t for her (because I don’t see that as emotional manipulation if he truly is afraid that’s what will happen and if Emma truly has that kind of affect on him), he certainly cannot be defended all the time and I’m not going to try now.
Of course they do. But you can find stuff villains do offensive. I’m offended when people murder, rape, maim, or otherwise injure another person. The fact that “horrible people do horrible” things isn’t justification. They don’t get a pass because “oh, villains.” Especially when it doesn’t get treated as a horrible thing by the writers…it gets treated as romantic.
However this I just don’t understand. If the bad guy is supposed to do bad things, how can you find that offensive. It is logic. They don’t get a pass. We are supposed to hate them, not get offended. Being offended to me, sounds like you are taking it personal. But I don’t get what kind of behavior you are expecting from a villain.
I think the point people are making here is not about the defensibility of this particular line, but about the defensibility of romanticizing a character who says such lines. In other words Hooks S2 portrayal simply burned too many bridges for a chunk of the audience to easily accept claims about his supposed later redemption.
Simply put, I find Hook as Emma’s love interest and the character whose story now drives much of the show to be utterly unconvincing, and morally distasteful. 😀
But to lighten the mood, does anyone remember Dr Seuss’s Green Eggs and Ham? I’ve been reading it to the little one and it just struck me that this is CS in a box
i do not like green eggs and ham
i do not like them Sam I Am
would you like them here or there?
i would not like them here or there
i would not like them anywhere!
would you like them in a box?
would you like them with a fox?
And on and on it goes like this until the poor protagonist finally relents under the onslaught of nonsensical pestering (and arguably kidnapping)
So while murder is terrible, it is television, not real life
And there it is. Your overall argument in a nutshell: it’s just a TV show.
Sure. Of course it is. It’s a TV show. I am well aware of the fact that there is not a town in Maine that houses Snow White, Rumplestiltskin, and a Savior named Emma.
But dismissing the moral and ethical implications because “it’s just a TV show” rankles me, right up with “why do you keep watching?” It is a TV show but TV shows hold mirrors up to society and tell us what we value, what we should value, how we treat everyone from men to women to PoC to the LGBT community. It is not sui generis. It does not exist in a bubble. It has a context; and that context is our own society and morals.
Which brings me to….
But in that particular moment, I don’t think we were supposed to think of it as romantic, Emma certainly didn’t
And yet so many CSers do/did. I can assure you of that. They found it swoon worthy, made sexual jokes themselves and even manips in which Hook and Emma were having sex with the lines being repeated. I take it you don’t have much of an inroad with the fandom at large? Or are just now getting your feet wet? I can assure you that much romanticizing was made from that line. It still is. Everything Hook does gets romanticized, right down to beating Belle and jumping off roofs.
And you’re right; Emma didn’t find it romantic. But she doesn’t seem to remember that–or any of the other heinous and repugnant offensive things Hook has done in his time as a villain. She never talks about them, never questions what kind of man she’s really dating. She’s just goo-goo eyed.
"He was a lot of things to me" "The only conclusion was love"So while murder is terrible, it is television, not real life
And there it is. Your overall argument in a nutshell: it’s just a TV show. Sure. Of course it is. It’s a TV show. I am well aware of the fact that there is not a town in Maine that houses Snow White, Rumplestiltskin, and a Savior named Emma. But dismissing the moral and ethical implications because “it’s just a TV show” rankles me, right up with “why do you keep watching?” It is a TV show but TV shows hold mirrors up to society and tell us what we value, what we should value, how we treat everyone from men to women to PoC to the LGBT community. It is not sui generis. It does not exist in a bubble. It has a context; and that context is our own society and morals. Which brings me to….
But in that particular moment, I don’t think we were supposed to think of it as romantic, Emma certainly didn’t
And yet so many CSers do/did. I can assure you of that. They found it swoon worthy, made sexual jokes themselves and even manips in which Hook and Emma were having sex with the lines being repeated. I take it you don’t have much of an inroad with the fandom at large? Or are just now getting your feet wet? I can assure you that much romanticizing was made from that line.
They make that line as an evidence that CS was planned from the start! LOL, if anything it proves the opposite.
"All your questions are pointless"
Which is a shame cause bringing a character to a confrontation about the bad things they did creates great scenes and great drama (e.g. Emma and Neal bar scene in 214). Characters can have flaws, characters can do make mistakes, that’s what makes them interesting. But there is no point if they are not confronted about it, everything is forgotten and everyone is happy. Redemption is not just forget about the past and doing good things, it’s about atonement, making amends and earning forgiveness
See this is where the Neal hate comes, bc with everyone else they show the abuser side, and im not calling Neal abuser, but im saying that on Neal and Emma case, they showed only Emma side, reason why Neal is so hated, bc to the fans he is an abuser, they never showed Neal side, Adam said that Neal didnt called the police and that bad things would happen if they ended together, but they never shown, Neal not calling the police, or the bad things that could ahev happen, or how was Neal life after leaving Emma, that is why on oncers minds, what Neal did to Emma was worst than Regina or Hook or even Rumple, or Zelena did as villains, in this case they were only focus on the “victim” side and worst they let the fans believe that bc they no longer have to worried about Neal character.
"I offended you with my opinion? Ha, you should hear the ones I keep to myself".
Which is a shame cause bringing a character to a confrontation about the bad things they did creates great scenes and great drama (e.g. Emma and Neal bar scene in 214). Characters can have flaws, characters can do make mistakes, that’s what makes them interesting. But there is no point if they are not confronted about it, everything is forgotten and everyone is happy. Redemption is not just forget about the past and doing good things, it’s about atonement, making amends and earning forgiveness
See this is where the Neal hate comes, bc with everyone else they show the abuser side, and im not calling Neal abuser, but im saying that on Neal and Emma case, they showed only Emma side, reason why Neal is so hated, bc to the fans he is an abuser, they never showed Neal side, Adam said that Neal didnt called the police and that bad things would happen if they ended together, but they never shown, Neal not calling the police, or the bad things that could ahev happen, or how was Neal life after leaving Emma, that is why on oncers minds, what Neal did to Emma was worst than Regina or Hook or even Rumple, or Zelena did as villains, in this case they were only focus on the “victim” side.
I agree, I think Neal is unfairly hated because we didn’t get the whole story (and never will because of fanservice), because he can’t get the excuse of “it’s fantasy, it’s not real” or “he was a villain”, because he was called out on the mistake he made from his victim (because that’s what should be done), because he was clearly the direction they were going for and it was hated by CS and SQ (as much as “they are on SF side” now), ultimately making him off the show (even if it’s indirectly). It always bothers me how they think that Neal is such a horrible person for what he did, but somehow Hook and Regina, both tried to kill Emma, are saints.
"All your questions are pointless"
And the excuse about being a villain might be used on season 2/flashback, and the excuse about the darkness might be used in 5A, but you can’t excuse the fact he lied in 317 about helping Ariel (which again was forgotten and weren’t addressed), you can’t excuse the fact that instead of doing the right thing and tell Belle about the fake dagger, he decided to blackmail Rumple on her expense and the apprentice he put in the hat (yet again he wasn’t confronted, yet again he admitted but it ment nothing cause no one heard it and everyone blamed Rumple).
Well lets not forget the Will thing, Hook beat him and threated him, and that was when he was already with Emma, and no, people cant talk about the HAND curse which was not. In fact Will is a thing that shows for me at least why Cs is so toxic and how Hook character influence Emma, bc the S1 Emma and im not talking about the walls part, im talking about the justice person, that defended the innocents against the bad guys, would never send Will to jail just bc he ended her date, or would just give him almost nothing to eat while he was there, this only happened after the Cs thing. In fact Will was the only character to say that Hook didnt cared about Henry, he was just using him to get Emma, so obvious when he got hate from Cs fans ha had to be cut.
"I offended you with my opinion? Ha, you should hear the ones I keep to myself".
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