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More generally, in my opinion, authorial intent is … if not entirely irrelevant, at least not particularly relevant compared to uptake.
Author John Green has a little saying in regards to this: “BBTTR”–books belong to their readers. I don’t believe that A and E are deliberately writing a troubling relationship when it comes to CS; I also don’t believe they are deliberately being misogynistic, racist, classiest, and intolerant to LGBTQ community, but that doesn’t mean that their story doesn’t reflect those negative attributes.
[adrotate group="5"]"He was a lot of things to me" "The only conclusion was love"I don’t believe that A and E are deliberately writing a troubling relationship when it comes to CS; I also don’t believe they are deliberately being misogynistic, racist, classiest, and intolerant to LGBTQ community, but that doesn’t mean that their story doesn’t reflect those negative attributes.
And that’s just sort of what I mean. No matter how much someone thinks or believes the relationship is abusive or whatever, it doesn’t mean it makes sense for Emma to break up with Hook because the writers have never felt that way and as a result, Emma has been written in such a way to accept Hook and all his actions. Never has she felt the need to break it off with him. So for her to do it now, at the end of her character’s arc, especially after the way Hook has been written this season, just would not make sense.
Right. In order for Emma to break up with Hook, the first thing that needs to happen is for the two guys writing and running this show to be aware that what they are writing is abusive but since they don’t, they won’t. It’s a standard, “if then” clause. If A happens, then B will occur. But since A isn’t going to happen then B won’t.
And to step outside CS, the same can be said for all the other host of issues that plague OUAT at large (or, heck, take it further–that plague network TV at large). Like rape culture in media, sexism, classism, elitism, racism, homophobia, transphobia, and paranoia over anything that can be “otherized.” This is an OUAT forum so we stick with that show for the most part (obviously) but, to be slightly fair, the larger cultural problems that we bring up as problematic to OUAT are not localized solely and exclusively to OUAT.
"He was a lot of things to me" "The only conclusion was love"yeah, breaking up cs is only in a case if the writers want to break them up, is not impossible, even in real life couples that are married or together for years break up, what to say of a couple that is dating 6 months, but i don´t see them breaking up CS, in fact just yesterday a crew member adressed CS fans, out of no where, bc their fans were complaining to her how they were never filming together now, to say they will have big things for hook and emma and the fans will be very happy, as we can see, fan pandering at extremes, the only way they may break up is if one of the actors wants to leave the show, in this case jMO, bc i actually dontt see Colin wanting to leave, and since that i dont see that happening at all, they won´t break up, in fact i doubt the latest spoilers they may change direction, they always say more than end being, maybe zelena leaves to raise her kid in OZ or EF, and maybe they give Regina a new love interest that wont be regular, Like Archie do that fans don`t ask for his story, and that is what they call revamping the show, either way i see more retcon and extreme PR in the latest spoilers to keep the name of teh show on media and on GA memmories.
"I offended you with my opinion? Ha, you should hear the ones I keep to myself".
This is an OUAT forum so we stick with that show for the most part (obviously) but, to be slightly fair, the larger cultural problems that we bring up as problematic to OUAT are not localized solely and exclusively to OUAT.
Yeah, I think this is so spot on. And put in context, OUAT is probably not even the worst offender. To me, much of the frustration with OUAT is that the overall story is rudderless, and that for a show that was character driven at the beginning, it’s thinned out its characterization so much that I personally have very little investment in any of the characters beyond seeing where this is going to end up when it’s all said and done. In fact, if they wanted to keep complicated themes on the table — like problematic relationships — but had done so in thoughtful, complex, and thought-provoking ways, I would have been perfectly happy. I can’t even muster much distaste for CS at this point simply because I’m no longer invested in Emma. (And not just CS — Rumbelle is in the same boat, no pun intended).
There’s also something about the way the show shifted over the years from a focus on family (broadly defined) — and Neal was very much central to that, because he wasn’t just Emma’s love interest, but also Henry’s father, Rumple’s son and so forth…to something largely romance-centric, and this decision has gutted OUAT of whatever made it different and exciting.
The true dreams, visions, sleep curse visitation from the unborn, are all different things. I don’t really know what to say. I do think that the swanfire scene was really happening, sort of like in Harry Potter when Harry almost dies and sees Dumbledore in a true dream and they talk. Harry asks the question is this real or is it in my head and Dumbledore responded something like of course, it is happening inside your head, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real? A scene like that feels real to a fantasy world and it doesn’t cause any world building problems like some of the other things that happen on this show.
I do think that is different then Emma’s visions of the future, which don’t always come true, which also seem to be different then Rumpel’s visions of the future which do always come true. The unborn visiting Belle as an adult in the sleep curse, i just don’t know what that was except convenient to the plot. I can’t imagine anyone who was just watching this show and not looking up discussions and spoilers online would think that man was actually Rumpel and Belle’s baby. Part of me still questions it.
Obviously, I can’t speak for anyone else, but it seems to me that one should not equate intellectual engagement with uncritical approval. There are many different ways to consume a media product, and not all of them fall along the lines of “like=will watch/dislike=won’t watch.” A bit of a false analogy, but lets take the news — another kind of media product. Just because I don’t like some of the things being reported on, or don’t like the particular political “spin” doesn’t mean I’m going to stop consuming the news. Or just because I find a text (broadly defined) problematic or offensive, doesn’t necessarily mean I will stop reading it — but I certainly don’t have to like it or feel the need to praise it.
This. This so much. I watch this show because i like discussing it. I like dissecting it. I like being critical of it. I like how it makes me think about what i want and expect out of my writing. It makes me think about character and how important i think that is, it makes me think about how important it is to show not tell because it does that so badly. This show being written this bad has improved my writing. It has made me think about the tropes that i don’t want to fall into. It has made me think about the structure and build of my arcs.
We have good critical discussions about character and plot because of this show. This, in my opinion, is a good discussion even if we disagree vastly on how we view the show. The discussion is of value, disagreeing peaceably is of value, so i continue to watch this show, so that i can continue to be part of the discussion.
I don’t believe that A and E are deliberately writing a troubling relationship when it comes to CS; I also don’t believe they are deliberately being misogynistic, racist, classiest, and intolerant to LGBTQ community, but that doesn’t mean that their story doesn’t reflect those negative attributes.
And that’s just sort of what I mean. No matter how much someone thinks or believes the relationship is abusive or whatever, it doesn’t mean it makes sense for Emma to break up with Hook because the writers have never felt that way and as a result, Emma has been written in such a way to accept Hook and all his actions. Never has she felt the need to break it off with him. So for her to do it now, at the end of her character’s arc, especially after the way Hook has been written this season, just would not make sense.
I understand what you are saying here. The writers do not know that they are writing an abusive relationship. They are, in my opinion, doing so regardless of whether not they realize and regardless of whether or not Emma reacts to Hook as if his behavior is abusive. That is why i believe it does make sense for Emma and Hook to break up because if we just take show canon, then Emma and Hook’s relationship is one conversation away from ending at any moment. For me, it is not a leap to conclusion it is just one tiny step and there the conclusion lays. The only thing it would take for all of what has happened with Emma and Hook to make sense would be for her to break up with him.
I completely understand that they aren’t going to and that Adam and Eddy don’t get it, but i do think it is the most logical thing that could happen. If Emma and Hook were just to talk about all of the things that they have done to one another, all of the things Hook has said, all of their history, if they were just to bring it up and talk about it like real people, then breaking up would be logical.
Regarding the question of whether Hook and Emma should break up, people are using different perspectives to decide what is “logical”. @thedarkonedearie is using a Doylist perspective while @hjbau and others are using a Watsonian perspective. It makes sense that if A & E don’t see the problems with the relationship, then they wouldn’t break up a couple they’ve invested in. But from an in-universe perspective, it might make sense in terms of character consistency, relationship problems etc. It depends a lot on which perspective you are basing your argument on.
I watch this show because i like discussing it. I like dissecting it. I like being critical of it. I like how it makes me think about what i want and expect out of my writing. It makes me think about character and how important i think that is, it makes me think about how important it is to show not tell because it does that so badly. This show being written this bad has improved my writing. It has made me think about the tropes that i don’t want to fall into. It has made me think about the structure and build of my arcs. We have good critical discussions about character and plot because of this show. This, in my opinion, is a good discussion even if we disagree vastly on how we view the show. The discussion is of value, disagreeing peaceably is of value, so i continue to watch this show, so that i can continue to be part of the discussion.
This for me as well. At this point, I get a lot more value from the discussions than from the show itself.
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