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Regarding the question of whether Hook and Emma should break up, people are using different perspectives to decide what is “logical”. @thedarkonedearie is using a Doylist perspective while @hjbau and others are using a Watsonian perspective. It makes sense that if A & E don’t see the problems with the relationship, then they wouldn’t break up a couple they’ve invested in. But from an in-universe perspective, it might make sense in terms of character consistency, relationship problems etc. It depends a lot on which perspective you are basing your argument on.
Right, i am not in denial of the authors intent. I see the twitters, i hear the actors toeing the party line, i see the spoilers. Like i said i think Emma and Hook are going to get married and make babies and all that stuff, but in universe, that which would be logical and consistent for the characters within the show, in my opinion, would be for Emma and Hook to break up. Emma, growing up without family, her issues with trust, her issues with trust in romantic relationships specifically, the way Emma and Hook met, Hook under a pile of bodies, the lies and the threatening, the attempts to kill one another, the crass comment, Hook selling Henry’s father and Emma’s first love interest to Pan for protection, the absolute mess that was Emma and Hook being dark ones, Hook throwing himself off the building to get Emma’s attention, all of the horrible things that Hook has said to Emma about being an orphan and all that, Hook then trying to murder Emma’s family so she would be the only one left, Emma leaving the Underworld and saying that it was a mistake to ever go down there.
It isn’t going to happen, but for me, the most logical, in universe thing to happen next, would be for them to break up.
[adrotate group="5"]It isn’t going to happen, but for me, the most logical, in universe thing to happen next, would be for them to break up.
For me, the most logical in-universe thing would’ve been for CS to never have gotten together at all. Hook has actually acted decently towards Belle in season 6 (more so than any of the other “Nevengers”) so Emma showing an interest in him this season would make sense. However, prior to season 6, I see no reason why Emma would’ve gone for Hook.
It annoys me how self-centred Emma has become. When Belle goes to Granny’s looking for a place to stay, Emma says Belle doesn’t want to do that and disparages Granny’s B&B yet does nothing to offer Belle an alternative place to stay. It is Hook who actually steps up and helps Belle out.
All magic comes with a price!
Keeper of FelixObviously, I can’t speak for anyone else, but it seems to me that one should not equate intellectual engagement with uncritical approval. There are many different ways to consume a media product, and not all of them fall along the lines of “like=will watch/dislike=won’t watch.” A bit of a false analogy, but lets take the news — another kind of media product. Just because I don’t like some of the things being reported on, or don’t like the particular political “spin” doesn’t mean I’m going to stop consuming the news. Or just because I find a text (broadly defined) problematic or offensive, doesn’t necessarily mean I will stop reading it — but I certainly don’t have to like it or feel the need to praise it.
THAT.
Some of us have been here pretty much since day one, before any fandom drama, before any shipping wars. We came because we liked season one, and some stayed. I haven’t done so out of any loyalty to the show. No, the draw is this group of fans who also have been here from the start. In particular, the SF thread has always been a Swanfire family appreciation thread, but it’s also always been a safe space for fans to discuss their dislike of CS and also discuss media more broadly. It’s also an oasis for those who felt the show let them down after season three (e.g. Rumbelle, Outlaw Queen, Swanfire family, Snow/Charming, Neal/Rumple). We can offer analysis and critique of the show without fear of offense in this space. The general discussion is fine, interesting even, but please realize that this thread in particular is a safe space for those who feel frustrated with the show and feel the need to vent. People are free to question the writers here and criticize the pirate in this place because it is our little haven. It’s one of only places in the entire online fandom where we don’t have to walk on eggshells or justify why we don’t appreciate the show for the “new direction” it went in after season three.
"That’s how you know you’ve really got a home. When you leave it, there’s this feeling that you can’t shake. You just miss it." Neal Cassidy
Some of us have been here pretty much since day one, before any fandom drama, before any shipping wars. We came because we liked season one, and some stayed. I haven’t done so out of any loyalty to the show. No, the draw is this group of fans who also have been here from the start. In particular, the SF thread has always been a Swanfire family appreciation thread, but it’s also always been a safe space for fans to discuss their dislike of CS and also discuss media more broadly. It’s also an oasis for those who felt the show let them down after season three (e.g. Rumbelle, Outlaw Queen, Swanfire family, Snow/Charming, Neal/Rumple). We can offer analysis and critique of the show without fear of offense in this space. The general discussion is fine, interesting even, but please realize that this thread in particular is a safe space for those who feel frustrated with the show and feel the need to vent. People are free to question the writers here and criticize the pirate in this place because it is our little haven. It’s one of only places in the entire online fandom where we don’t have to walk on eggshells or justify why we don’t appreciate the show for the “new direction” it went in after season three.
My issue was that there are a few people on here who only have negative things to say. And it’s not just on this thread. It’s on other threads too. My question about why they even watch it anymore if it ONLY frustrates them and they have nothing but negative things to say about it, was for those select people. If all they are posting are extremely over the top negative things it starts to ruin it for fans who still enjoy the show for what it is. I get the idea that you like to have a safe space to vent, but at some point, you continue to watch it bc there is still something you like about the show. But the way they post all the time, you wouldn’t know that. So either they do still like parts of the show and continue to watch it despite only posting negative things (which is frustrating for me, someone who sees the show’s flaws and wants it to end but still enjoys watching it), or they enjoy torturing themselves with what they would consider one of the worst shows on tv right now.
Hmm. I take your point, @thedarkonedearie so I’m going to try and answer using just myself though I don’t think I’m someone who posts *just* negativity. I’m critical, to be sure!, but I think it’s more in a didactic manner.
Are there still things I like about the show? Sure, I guess. But I think the issue is that those things are so small and so few and far between that it’s super hard to generate a conversation about those things. For example, it might just be a funny line or a good costume; it could even be an episode that doesn’t leave me either bored or angry (6A’s Heartless comes to mind) but moments or episodes like this don’t exactly cause the kinds of conversation that the more negative aspects do. And at this point, like @sciencevsmagic said above, I get more out of the conversation we have about those negative aspects than I do about anything positive because conversations about the latter are so unfulfilling.
I think my question back to you, @thedarkonedearie is : what kind of answer are you looking for? Are you waiting for those who do talk in mostly negatives to admit “yeah, I still like some things” so it’s a sort of “gotcha!” moment? I mean, I think everyone here can point to one thing that they still like or are invested in. @WickedRegal is still heavily invested in Regina; @hjbau is still invested in Emma or likes Emma as a character or at least hopes for better for her. I’m still interested in any sort of mythology the show wants to try and play with along with seeing if A and E can course correct some of their more disastrous cultural and social themes. I know you don’t expect everyone here to be all sunshine and rainbows–and you’ve been critical about some things in the past as well–but, again, I’m just wondering what sort of answer you expect to the questions you pose and more broadly what sort of conversations are you expecting to have?
"He was a lot of things to me" "The only conclusion was love"If you dont mind, I will give my two cents on this because I partly agree with darkonedearie.
It can be a little discouraging reading all those negative comments sometime. For me, when I read the negative comments, I can sometime feel kind of deflated.. and sometimes ..with the little things, it looks kind of nitpicky, especially if it is written and not accompanied ever by something positive.
I find I mostly like to have convos about all the good stuff I can find on the show, the negative I also see, but I don’t always find the conversations about those things all that interesting. Of course.. sometimes they can be… but variation, I would say, is the best thing. This whole forum does feel a lot more negative this past season than ever before.
@RumplesGirl, I certainly would not loop you into the “always negative” group. I don’t want to single anyone out but there are people who don’t say anything positive. If you dislike an episode, you at least find a couple things you enjoyed. As you said, even if it’s just a line or a costume. But others will comment on what will be an encouraging or somewhat positive thread, and they’ll say something so over the top negative and extremely general. It’s usually a overarching belief they have had about the show for the past few seasons. It could be something like an anti Hook comment (even when he has a good episode where he is acting nicely and what not). Or it could be anti-Emma comment (like even when she does decide to be the Savior again, people will say things like “That was barely anything, and I’m sure she will go back to Hook’s loving arms and forget who she is again”). And many other examples. Instead of just enjoying the show in the moment, there are a few that only concentrate on negative opinions they have had for years about certain characters and storytelling and they let that spew into episodes that were actually decent. So when I see that, it’s hard not to feel a little annoyed bc when the show does do a decent job with something, they should be praised. But they don’t get any praise from these people. All they do is hate on it bc it isn’t the same show they fell in love with, which makes me wonder why they even watch it. So I guess the answer I would be looking for would be maybe that they are still hoping it can return to the form it used to be. Or maybe like a sick puppy, they just can’t let it go bc of how it used to make them feel. Or maybe they like only one character and want to see their story to the very end (even though these people say they like certain characters, like Emma for instance, they still bash the character all the time). Or maybe they actually like the show a little more than they are letting on. Or maybe they enjoy watching crap tv and enjoy commenting negatively on threads about it. Perhaps watching something they feel is so awful it makes them feel better about their own lives for some reason.
But that was sort of what I was going for. Hate for the sake of hate seems to be running through a few on here and it definitely is discouraging as @Grimmsister said. I completely get talking about the bad parts of a show. I enjoy dumping on the show plenty. The way it handled the LGBTQ episode last year was horrendous. The way they handled the end of season 5A was horrendous. And many many many other things. But I also don’t just get caught up in past things and beliefs. I’ve accepted Neal is gone. I’ve accepted they basically rebooted Rumple’s character. I’ve accepted they have retconned more than I would have liked. Some people just can’t let things go and it seems it’s affecting their current view of the show in such a way that they can’t seem to find anything positive with it anymore. And again, I would not lump @RumplesGirl into this category.
I’ve accepted Neal is gone. I’ve accepted they basically rebooted Rumple’s character. I’ve accepted they have retconned more than I would have liked.
I think a lot of us here have accepted these things as well, but that does not mean we have to like it or pretend as if we don’t have complaints about the direction of the story or characters. The ones you named earlier are views shared by many in the fandom.
Some people just can’t let things go and it seems it’s affecting their current view of the show in such a way that they can’t seem to find anything positive with it anymore
I agree to a certain extent. But at the same time, it seems others have this view that any person who has something negative to say about the show or certain characters must just be blindly bitter that Neal died seasons ago, and not, ya know, just genuinely displeased with the show.
Not everyone has to agree. This is a forum after all. Perhaps some don’t say anything positive because they don’t have any positive opinions about the show? Why they continue to watch can be for any number of reasons (I’m still here for Regina, to see what other characters will pop up, get some answers to unanswered questions, and because I don’t like to abandon shows no matter how bad they get *cough* True Blood *cough*. I’m here because I love magic, love Disney, and love fairytales and despite it all, I want to see how this tale ends). I don’t think its fair to really assume that those who dislike stuff about the show are only doing it because they are upset the ship they wanted didn’t sail.
"I could have the giant duck as my steed!" --Daniel Radcliffe
Keeper Of Tamara's Taser , Jafar's Staff, Kitsis’s Glasses , Ariel’s Tail, Dopey's Hat , Peter Pan’s Shadow, Outfit, & Pied Cloak,Red Queen's Castle, White Rabbit's Power To World Hop, Zelena's BroomStick, & ALL MAGICWhy they continue to watch can be for any number of reasons (I’m still here for Regina, to see what other characters will pop up, get some answers to unanswered questions, and because I don’t like to abandon shows no matter how bad they get *cough* True Blood *cough*. I’m here because I love magic, love Disney, and love fairytales and despite it all, I want to see how this tale ends). I don’t think its fair to really assume that those who dislike stuff about the show are only doing it because they are upset the ship they wanted didn’t sail.
Not that I would lump @TheWatcher into this “all negative” category either, but the reasons you give for watching the show are valid and exactly what I was looking for. Not necessarily from you, but from others who literally have nothing nice to say, ever. Many of the reasons you gave are reasons I still watch it too.
I agree to a certain extent. But at the same time, it seems others have this view that any person who has something negative to say about the show or certain characters must just be blindly bitter that Neal died seasons ago, and not, ya know, just genuinely displeased with the show.
And Neal was just one example. Because while I do think that hardcore Swanfire fans let the loss of Neal affect how they continue to feel about the story today (in a sense that it is a way of not letting it go and just accepting the show for what it is now, even though that wasn’t your vision and what you hoped it would be back in earlier seasons), that is certainly not the only thing that gets brought up constantly from many fans on this forum. Rumple’s consistency is another one. People are particularly harder on Hook than anyone else it seems. Season 4’s attempt at ratings and jumping off the shark. Shotty world building. A&E just doing things for fan service, but then they don’t care about their fans apparently (for example, the black fairy, we all wanted to see her and never thought we would. Then we get her, she’s Rumple’s mother, which we also wanted to see, but then people say oh they just did that because the show is ending and they know that’s what the fans wanted. You can’t say they don’t care about their fans, but then say adding characters like the black fairy are just for fan service). The reboot after season 3A. Too much PLOT as opposed to actual storytelling (even though I feel they have done a much better job this season of slowing things down a bit). Emma becoming too into Hook and not being enough of the Savior. All of these things seem to adversely affect how a few people on here view the show today. As it should. But I think there is a ton of bias from stuff that people are still very very bitter over. But while there may be some bitterness and negativity, that in my opinion, has clouded some people’s overall judgement of the show as it is today, my direct concern was with the people who let these biases take over so now they literally have nothing positive to say about the show anymore and they keep loosely bringing up the issues they have had with the show since like season 3. It’s not allowing them to look at the show clearly now to see if they can actually see any improvements or if they fixed anything. Like there’s no way they got worse at doing everything this season. Very possible they took a step back on certain things, but they definitely have improved on some things as well. But those negative people only focus on the bad stuff and it is quite frustrating for someone who has actually enjoyed this season for the most part.
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