Emma + Baelfire = Swanfire

[Rainbow]

You know how the should end, i will not post in another places because i may be called “Bitter Shiper”, i know how i want, but i can`t post what i want, because i have to admit there i would be rightful called bitter shiper, but u know another great ending?
SB people rogue: the story. SB people riot tired of all Charming/Stilkin/Mills and Jones crazy people that keeps coming for them and take the power for themselves and lock all the rest in jail or send them out of town to lose their memories and never come back. The End and everyone got their HEA and the show doesn`t get a S7. Like this all fans get their happy moments , no one died and they all got peace.

[Rainbow]

I would say that this post is more for SF fans.

We are called bitter shipers, but when we point out that some characters have to pay for their crimes( not just here, but in every social media places), we get from other fans, that these people crimes is in the past and they changed, HOWEVER, these same people still call Neal out for the things he did in the past and that he totally deserved to die and is no big deal he didn`t got his happy ending and i must say death is not a happy ending, especially since people keep saying Emma can´t die, because she would not get her happy ending that way, and about Neal, i doubt being alone wherever he is is a happy ending, because he is alone, since his love ones are making a mess of things and pretend he didn´t even existed and is not even important to have some mourning episodes and his killer or the person that had a hand on his death, gloads about it and is not pusnished, in fact she even gets to live with his son. A happy ending for Neal, would be to reunite with his love ones in the afterlife.
So yeah, if neal crimes, that are in nothing compared to any of the villains level, are important to be call out why are not the other ones that killed people and raped and a lot of other things?

"I offended you with my opinion? Ha, you should hear the ones I keep to myself".

[RumplesGirl]

I think this will end up being more about the Charming family than about Hook.

I don’t. If the ramifications for Charming do come up, it’ll always be second to Emma. Hook’s story has always centered on his relationship with Emma and how his actions affect her and their relationship.

the promo, at least, emphasizes that Hook’s only concern is for Emma and whether or not he loses her

I just feel bad for Hook at this point.

I feel bad for the people he’s killed, Charming, Ruth, and those affected by the any murder whether it’s done by Rumple, Regina, Zelena, or Hook. You don’t get my pity for committing murder; it’s not like it’s a hard choice. Don’t kill. Especially in a lot of Hook’s cases where the reason for the murder was tiny petty things (ie: not a crime of passion or revenge, both of which are still very not good!)

I…get that he’s “changed” because he doesn’t murder people anymore but this is one of the biggest problems with OUAT; because they care more about redemption for the villain that for justice the actual scales are never balanced. Hook doesn’t and won’t lose anything for making people lose the most precious thing of all (their life). And the constant affirmation by everyone that it’s okay, it doesn’t matter, because he’s “changed” really undercuts the crime in the first place. At least for me. Hook, and Regina/Zelena (less sure about Rumple) will walk away having to pay very little for their crimes. Hook gets the girl, the happy ending, the family, the love, the acceptance, and an unnaturally long life (he is like 200 years old now). Whereas Robert, a guy genuinely trying to do the right thing and make up for his past mistakes (actual atonement!) gets a knife through the heart. The moral message here is…not great.

"He was a lot of things to me" "The only conclusion was love"

[RumplesGirl]

because they care more about redemption for the villain that for justice the actual scales are never balanced.

Also, if I could just make one more point about the Hook/Emma situation post-Robert’s murder.

One of the hallmark tropes of the Savior is their search for justice. They tend to be pretty concerned with it which is why Savior mythologies can be read as political commentaries. So many times the hero/Savior is one of the “little guys” who must stand up to some sort of authority figure who is imposing totalitarian rule if on a grand or cosmic scale.

Think Buffy. She didn’t just go up against Vampires. Her arc enemies were a High School Principal and Mayor (s3); a covert military operation (s4) and a god (s5); all figures that can be seen as imposing total and absolute rule.

Think about Luke Skywalker. His enemy was, yes, Darth Vader, but on a larger more complex scale it was the Empire and the Emperor. The heroes were called rebels because they stood up to the monolith that was this “Empire.”

Voldemort placed his agents inside schools and the Ministry of Magic and even had his own high level “cabinet” officials like Malfoy.

While Frodo’s main antagonist was the pure evil figure Sauron, there’s also Sarouman who was trying to corrupt his fellow wizards from inside the system to bring them all under the Eye.

Superman goes up against Lex Luthor who is a businessman with a mega corporation.

Think about the show Gotham right now. Bruce is going up against a Court of Owls which is, more or less, a demented Congress who secretly rule Gotham without anyone being the wiser.

Or if you want a real world situation, often times real world events of heroes/rebels taking down some sort of totalitarian regime or governmental body get mythologized. When the story is retold it’s cast in mthyological terms and symbols. Mr. Smith goes to Washington, and all that.

My point is that the Hero/Savior is always a fighter for justice. It’s part of their archetype. So for Emma Swan to be so blase about petty and senseless murders from the man she loves, to wave off the victims and care more about “well you’re not murdering anyone now” makes her character seem hollow, disingenuous, and silly. And while writers do not have to be a slave to the trope and its established characteristics, taking away or adding a new one shouldn’t hurt the character.

For example. The writers twisted the trope by making Emma 1) a woman and 2) a mother who’s deepest connection was to her son. Yes, good. This helped the character because it grounded her in the narrative that was 1) female centric and 2) heavily concerned with mother and daughters/children

But making Emma 1)the Savior and 2) a sheriff (the mundane version of her mythological role) and then having her not care about a lot of murders from individuals damages her character.

"He was a lot of things to me" "The only conclusion was love"

[hjbau]

Also, Neal’s “crimes” are that he left Emma because he was afraid of his father finding him because his father is the dark one and abandoned him. He left Emma after being told he was bad for her and that he would keep her from her destiny. He didn’t know she was pregnant. He tried to leave her the money with the car. There is no proof of some huge age difference. They made Neal’s back story complicated and Emma is still in love with him and they have Henry which complicates it even more.

The villain’s crimes are much more cut and dry. They are murderers and rapists, killing children and their only family members, wives and husbands and parents, as well as the parents of the heroes, as well as the attempted murders of the heroes. And those things happened like a few months ago for some of these characters, maybe a year ago, not ten years ago like for Neal.

I think what Neal did was wrong and messed up and it would take a lot of talking for him and Emma to get back together. I wasn’t really there when he died, but there is no amount of talking that makes it make sense that Emma would date Hook or be friends with Regina.

[hjbau]

Seriously, the whole idea that someone hasn’t murdered anyone in awhile meaning they are redeemed has always been so out there to me. Not murdering people in cold blood is like basic humanity. That doesn’t make one a hero of any sort. Especially, like others have said, these are people who have murdered a lot of people to the point where it was just not big deal for them to just kill a guy because it is more convenient for them then worrying about what they might say if they leave them alive.

The morality of this show is pretty much nonsense.

[Rainbow]

The morality of this show is pretty much nonsense.

And even get`s worst when the victims are some how the ones to get the blame, bc they were killed and in fact if you are linked to Charming and Mills family you get a pass because who cares if the villains killed, what matters is if they will get a happy ending.

Now i had a thought that i will write here, because again will fit more Sf fans.

Let`s take in consideration that that some of the rumours are true, Snowing, Belle, Rumple, Henry and Emma are gone for next season, and the show will have a s7, with eyes to more seasons.

Lets also take in consideration, like many of musical episodes in shows that are not musical that the musical epi is a dream, that happened in Greys and will happen in Flash/Suppergirl cross over, let`s think is a Rumple dream, that he is having in his shop

Finally again, let`s pretend that the casting call is really Adult Hnery and that the girl is someone else daughter or will be

Using all the above thinking, lets think this theory with all the above in consideration, lets think the following, CS wedding is not really a wedding, especially because the pics makes it sound they are in a palace and not SB and is a Rumple dream while he is in the shop, Black fairy is the big bad of the season, so she sends Hnery to drak realm and like Gideon he comes back bitter and hopeless and adult, however to defeat the BF, both Emma and Rumple Die, with her defeat adult henry returns and gideon is back to be a baby, since Emma dies and Rumple, Snowing, their baby and belle and gideon go back to EF with Zelena help( Zelena case she may go to EF, OZ or stay in SB, being recurring or regular next season), after everything that happens, Regina meets a young orphan in SB, and sees herself as kid in her, and starts thinking in adopting her, while trying to bring back hoep in henry heart, Hook destroyed by Emma death fights bettween going back to be a pirate or stay good, with his brother help and who knows They could even do Hooked Queen, while Emma, Rumple move on in peace and meet Neal in the afterlife. THis would fit in all case of the people leaving, would still arrange everyone with HEA( even Snowing and Belle, because they would knew that Emma and Rumple had move on and were with Neal), would give new storylines to the other 3 or 2 and they could still move on with the story. And makes way more sense, than time travel and curses that cannot be explained. And even if JMo stays this theory can still work to get rid of the other cast members, except that would have Emma, Hook and Regina, so tha will be hilarious on the fandom, LOL. Adding another part of the thoery, if Rumple is not killedm maybe he loses his powers and goes back to EF with Belle and baby gideon.

"I offended you with my opinion? Ha, you should hear the ones I keep to myself".

[Slurpeez]

I…get that he’s “changed” because he doesn’t murder people anymore but this is one of the biggest problems with OUAT; because they care more about redemption for the villain that for justice the actual scales are never balanced. Hook doesn’t and won’t lose anything for making people lose the most precious thing of all (their life). And the constant affirmation by everyone that it’s okay, it doesn’t matter, because he’s “changed” really undercuts the crime in the first place. At least for me. Hook, and Regina/Zelena (less sure about Rumple) will walk away having to pay very little for their crimes. Hook gets the girl, the happy ending, the family, the love, the acceptance, and an unnaturally long life (he is like 200 years old now). Whereas Robert, a guy genuinely trying to do the right thing and make up for his past mistakes (actual atonement!) gets a knife through the heart. The moral message here is…not great.

Indeed, it’s not great. No main villain (besides King George) has really served much time nor actual punishment for his or her past crimes. Why is it that only George is serving his time in the hospital basement? Zelena hasn’t served serious time for murdering Neal, and she gets to raise her and Robin’s child (against Robin’s strong wishes). Regina has served no time for murdering Graham nor has Hook served any for murdering Merlin. Rumple has lost out on his family as a result of his own misdeeds, though he hasn’t done time since the EF. The rest get the family they wanted. Indeed, there doesn’t seem to be a lot of justice on this show. What is going on?

I’m going to quote from A Clash of Kings by GRRM here to underscore this point. King Stannis chopped off the finger tips of a smuggler named Davos, but then he made Davos a knight for his faithful service and loyalty after Davos swore allegiance. Davos keeps the finger bones in a bag around his neck to remind him of justice.

Stannis: “Why do you keep them [the finger bones]? I have often wondered.”
Davos: They remind me of what I was. Where I came from. They remind me of your justice, my liege.”
Stannis: “It was justice,” Stannis said. “A good act does not wash out the bad, nor a bad act the good. Each should have its own reward. You were a hero and a smuggler.”

King Stannis has a reputation for his justice. While I don’t always agree with Stannis or his deeds, on this point I think he’s right: a good act does not wash out the bad, nor a bad act the good. Sure, a person is capable of both good and bad. A former pirate like Davos can quit smuggling and instead serve the realm as a knight. However, King Stannis didn’t let the crime of smuggling go unpunished. While medieval justice was harsh, the point remains. Davos was both a hero and a smuggler (a bit like Hook). Yet, Hook’s misdeeds remain unpunished (as do those of Regina, Zelena and Rumple). There isn’t real justice. Even for fantasy, OUAT is far less realisitic than ASOIAF, which is a fantasy but firmly based in reality.

"That’s how you know you’ve really got a home. When you leave it, there’s this feeling that you can’t shake. You just miss it." Neal Cassidy

[thedarkonedearie]

I feel bad for the people he’s killed, Charming, Ruth, and those affected by the any murder whether it’s done by Rumple, Regina, Zelena, or Hook. You don’t get my pity for committing murder; it’s not like it’s a hard choice. Don’t kill. Especially in a lot of Hook’s cases where the reason for the murder was tiny petty things (ie: not a crime of passion or revenge, both of which are still very not good!)

So you have never felt sorry for Regina?  Felt sorry for Rumple?  Not once.  Especially Regina post season 2.  I just wanna make sure we are treating Regina the same way we are treating Hook.  If you feel the same way about Regina and that she shouldn’t be able to have Robin, have Henry, have a family who loves her….just like Hook shouldn’t get he girl, have a family, the love, the acceptance, then fine.  At least there is consistency to not firgiving or feeling bad for people who have committed murder.

At least for me. Hook, and Regina/Zelena (less sure about Rumple) will walk away having to pay very little for their crimes.

I think Regina has paid a lot.  The loss of her father.  The loss of Daniel.  The loss of Robin.  The loss of Cora.  Like seriously?  And you only say less sure about Rumple bc of Neal.  Eyeroll….This all seems like karma for Regina bc of how awful a person she used to be.  For me, that’s paying for her crimes.  How about the loss of her son.  She has slowly built that relationship back.  She even lost her magic there for awhile.  Hook has definitely lost less than Regina.  He’s lost his father, yes he’s lived for a bazillion years but much of it was spent in Neverland being Pan’s lackey, he lost Milah.  He still doesn’t have people’s respect…until finally at the end of the episode when David finally gives it to him.  It’s not like he’s lost nothing.

I…get that he’s “changed” because he doesn’t murder people anymore

And yes, he has changed. No need for quotations here.  He doesn’t kill anymore, sure.  But he has shown countless times that he cares for not just Emma, but for others as well.  He saved Henry and cared about what he thought of him.  He saved Belle and killed Jekyll/Hyde.  He provided Belle with a safe haven to get away from Rumple.  He helped David this episode and even lied to Emma for him.  He not only helped David find out what happened to his father, but he also stopped David from making a terrible mistake in killing King George.  Like what part about Hook says he hasn’t completely changed other than you and many others still being skeptical simply bc of his past.  He has done nothing in the last two seasons since he stopped being the DO to question his commitment to being a better person.  If he has, I’d like someone to cite it.

Seriously, the whole idea that someone hasn’t murdered anyone in awhile meaning they are redeemed has always been so out there to me. Not murdering people in cold blood is like basic humanity. That doesn’t make one a hero of any sort. Especially, like others have said, these are people who have murdered a lot of people to the point where it was just not big deal for them to just kill a guy because it is more convenient for them then worrying about what they might say if they leave them alive.

And again for reasons I said above, it’s not that he just isn’t murdering anyone anymore.  He has saved lives, including Belle, Henry, and King George.  He has gone out of his way to help people.  Sure he’s not killing anymore and is vehemently against it now, but he’s also caring for others.  But all anybody ever focuses on is his past crimes and I just don’t feel like Regina is treated the same way.

And as far as Zelena goes, she lost the person she loved…..Hades.  But other than that, you are right, she hasn’t paid for her villainess ways.  I cannot defend her.

[RumplesGirl]

So you have never felt sorry for Regina?  Felt sorry for Rumple?  Not once.  Especially Regina post season 2.  I just wanna make sure we are treating Regina the same way we are treating Hook.  If you feel the same way about Regina and that she shouldn’t be able to have Robin, have Henry, have a family who loves her….just like Hook shouldn’t get he girl, have a family, the love, the acceptance.

No because like you point out, Regina has lost a lot. I think she’s paid quite a hefty price for her crimes and her slow redemption has been just that–slow. It’s taken seasons. I didn’t actually mean to include Regina in the next thing you quoted me on because I do think Regina has lost a great deal and has shown genuine remorse and anguish over things she’s done.

But what exactly has Hook lost?

I think Regina has paid a lot.  The loss of her father.  The loss of Daniel.  The loss of Robin.  The loss of Cora.  Like seriously?  And you only say less sure about Rumple bc of Neal.  Eyeroll….This all seems like karma for Regina bc of how awful a person she used to be.  For me, that’s paying for her crimes.  How about the loss of her son.  She has slowly built that relationship back.  She even lost her magic there for awhile.  Hook has definitely lost less than Regina.  He’s lost his father, yes he’s lived for a bazillion years but much of it was spent in Neverland being Pan’s lackey, he lost Milah.  He still doesn’t have people’s respect…until finally at the end of the episode when David finally gives it to him.  It’s not like he’s lost nothing.

I already covered my typo for Regina so moving on…

The things you’re saying he lost he either lost by his own hand or before he turned into a full on villain.

1) his father–he killed

2) being Pan’s lacky–which was his choice! He chose to go to NVL and every time Pan sent him to the EF (which is what must have happened when he ran into Robert) he chose to go back because of his need for revenge. He wasn’t enslaved; he wasn’t shackled. He literally got to keep his ship, his crew, and a sense of freedom.

3) Milah–tragic, yes. But lost before he was a villain and majority of his crimes happen AFTER he lost Milah, not before. In other words, losing Milah was not punishment for his villainy in the same way Regina gave up Henry at the end of 3A as a way to pay for her sins.

So, yes. He has lost nothing when compared to the likes of Regina or even Rumple. And he gains a lot: he got back one of his brothers, he got back his ship, he got respect and acceptance from those he’s seriously harmed or injured (Belle, Archie, Snowing), and he “got the girl.” And in a larger out of universe way, he became the leading man in an ensemble show.

I’m not denying that he’s done good things in the past year, especially S6A which seemed tooled toward addressing those lingering concerns fans have voiced over the years (ie: Belle). But that’s three solid years after his introduction. 3 years after A and E declared that he was already a hero. That he had been since the end of 2B. That’s one of my issues. They started addressing those things much later than they should have and not because, IMO, they think Hook actually needs to address them in universe, but I think because they want to shut up the critics. It works to an extent but it also causes me to give them a lot of sideeye.

"He was a lot of things to me" "The only conclusion was love"

[Author]

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