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I can think of one. Well possibly. We never got his childhood story told, as I understand it. And I don’t know the cannon from the original tale. Robin.
Yeah I think Robin is likely the only character who didn’t and that’s because of his lack of development, most likely. Had they not killed him I’m sure they would have made him have daddy issues.
[adrotate group="5"]"He was a lot of things to me" "The only conclusion was love"“It’s okay. I didn’t exactly make it easy for you to tell me the truth” – Emma blaming herself about Hook lying to her.
But is that not just Emma rationalising Hook’s flaws because she has this idealised view of him therefore Hook is not allowed to fail in any way?
All magic comes with a price!
Keeper of FelixYeah I think Robin is likely the only character who didn’t and that’s because of his lack of development, most likely. Had they not killed him I’m sure they would have made him have daddy issues.
I can think of one. Well possibly. We never got his childhood story told, as I understand it. And I don’t know the cannon from the original tale. Robin.
Yeah I think Robin is likely the only character who didn’t and that’s because of his lack of development, most likely. Had they not killed him I’m sure they would have made him have daddy issues.
And arguably, the late Robin, aside from his thieving ways, was a remarkably decent, mentally stable, loyal, and relationship-capable human being. So of course, they had to kill him off, because what could possible be compelling about that?
Re: Emma. I’m just totally puzzled by what the audience is supposed to see. If this were a YA story, and therefore didactic, you would expect a cathartic fight with the main female character’s best (preferably male) friend who, after weeks of pouting, finally blows up with a “I don’t like the person you’re becoming!” thereby articulating the audience’s discomfort and suspicion that maybe this isn’t how a healthy relationship should look. But the fact that Charming forgave Hook makes me think the writers are completely oblivious to how Emma is coming across.
Here’s what I don’t quite get. I can’t get over the fact that Emma the character is supposed to be in her early 30s. She’s a grown up woman, for crying out loud, but her emotional development seems so stunted that what seemed like a charming character flaw in the early seasons — I remember people writing about how she has the emotional maturity of a 12 year old boy — is no longer charming, but really heart-breaking and a little pathetic. None of the other characters in Emma’s demographic cohort (which includes Regina and Snow) come across this way — they all, by and large, act their character’s biological age. Even Regina’s affair and the relationship with Robin felt completely mature to me. The only other one who seems to be similar, is Gideon, but from what we know of BF, he was literally brought up by Sauron in a corset, and is heart-contolled, so I think he gets a pass. At this point, Emma’s had the time and emotional support to grow and develop, but it just seems like she’s gotten worse, not better. So what gives?
Here’s what I don’t quite get. I can’t get over the fact that Emma the character is supposed to be in her early 30s. She’s a grown up woman, for crying out loud, but her emotional development seems so stunted that what seemed like a charming character flaw in the early seasons — I remember people writing about how she has the emotional maturity of a 12 year old boy — is no longer charming, but really heart-breaking and a little pathetic. None of the other characters in Emma’s demographic cohort (which includes Regina and Snow) come across this way — they all, by and large, act their character’s biological age.Heck, honestly, she seems to be regressing. I am not (or I hope I am not) confusing her “walls” with maturity. I don’t mind characters being vulnerable, we have seen that in all the other adult characters on the show, that is normal, and that is healthy. But she seemed more functional in her day to day life in season one/two/three. I don’t mind the odd bought of not being able to function. Someone important to one dies, I expect some time of mourning and some inability to function as one normally does. But she seems to hardly function without Hook. Look by comparison to how the Charmings were handling the sleeping curse? Heck, it seems as if they didn’t even have someone guard the one sleeping out of worry or risk of danger. I could easily imagine Snow or Charming being independent people (after a break up or a death) and becoming their former selves more easily than I could imaging Emma in those circumstances, no matter what time-frame you put on it.
I almost wish they had a proper love triangle with Emma, Hook, and someone else (for either Emma or Hook), I feel like she would have been realized she didn’t need a partner. Something it seemed she realized a long time ago, maybe in a slightly unhealthy way (the “walls”), but more healthy than a co-dependency (with near no healthy boundaries) like we see now. They actually both suggest trust or intimacy issues, they just both express themselves in different ways.
This show was about her realizing she needed and wanted a family, as any healthy human does (Not necessary a natural biological family, but just people you can trust and love, and who trust and love you back). That doesn’t necessarily equate to spouse, some people are happy single, but they still require human companionship for their socio-emotional needs. And she was willing to sacrifice the life and future of the family she found for a new family member. Unless that family was dysfunctional and immediate risk to Emma/Hook’s life, how do you justify that decision?
Did you all notice, that when was with Emma, she said she wishe dhe was dead, bc she loved him so much that she was afraid of suffering again, so was also difficult to forget what he did to her and she had that during 11 years, yet with Hook she forgives everything, if this was a decent show, this would be the same that say Cs was nor real love, i mean everyone says that a couple that never argues is doomed soon or later, but since this is ouat, is more fan service.
"I offended you with my opinion? Ha, you should hear the ones I keep to myself".
Bar Farer wrote: “It’s okay. I didn’t exactly make it easy for you to tell me the truth” – Emma blaming herself about Hook lying to her.
But is that not just Emma rationalising Hook’s flaws because she has this idealised view of him therefore Hook is not allowed to fail in any way?
It’s not just that Emma has an idealized view of Hook (though she does have that). Emma has the number one characteristic of a codependent person: “an exaggerated sense of responsibility for the actions of others.” I think she is making excuses for Hook left, right, and center in part because she feels the need to take responsibility for his actions in order to rescue him. This is what people so often do when they’re in a codependent relationship. Remember when Hook lied about getting rid of the shears of destiny and only confessed because Henry caught him? Emma again excused Hook’s misbehavior. From 6×6:
Emma: It’s okay. I get it.
Hook: You do?
Emma: I would’ve done the exact same thing.And then she made a face like she was really sad.
It’s almost as if the writers, and the actors, were subtly trying to tell us something is off. Beneath the surface of seeming happiness, Emma is deeply unhappy. He keeps lying to her time and time again, and she keeps making excuses. As Emma said to Archie, “this happiness is an illusion” because Hook might lose his happiness.
When Emma gave back the ring in 6×14, she said:
You come to me, Hook, and you lean on me and you trust me! We have to stop hiding things from each other.
I thought to myself, oh good for her, progress! At least she seemed to recognize they have a pattern of hiding things from each other. But then she added:
The man I fell in love with would know that. You would know that we would do things together. That is what I agreed to marry. That is what I thought that we were together.
Which man did Emma think she fell in love with exactly? She didn’t fall in love with Prince Charming. She fell in love with Captain Bloody Hook! What did she expect? When they first met, he was lying to her about being a blacksmith and hiding under rotten corpses. What on Earth gave Emma this impression that Hook would know how to behave the way her father does? Yes, he’s made strides in the right direction, but he still has been lying about big and small things for as long as they’ve been dating. I think @PoM is right, too. Emma has this idea of Mr. Wonderful built up entirely in her head. She has a fantasy of how her future husband ought to behave, but Hook doesn’t measure up. Her parents have a fairytale relationship, and Charming is well, Prince Charming. She craves the kind of relationship her parents have. Yet, Hook keeps falling short, unable to live up to this impossible standard because he’s a former pirate and prone to darkness. What does Emma say to Hook then? She dangles a carrot before Hook and tells him to shape up; only then he can have her love and marry her, his own personal savior.
Then Emma said: “Until you’re ready for that then we can talk.”
That is why Hook drank and burned his memories of murdering Robert in the first place. He didn’t think he could face Emma, knowing he’d killed her father’s father as a cold-blooded pirate. Conerning his relationship with Emma, Hook even said to Nemo:
“I’m not the man Emma needs me to be.”
He doubts himself precisely because Emma has these high standards, and when Hook is being honest with himself, he knows this and tells her so. Recall what Emma said to Hook said when she found him in the UW. He sees himself clearly as being weak and likely to give into darkness while Emma insisted he had acted heroically.
Emma: What’s wrong?
Hook: It’s just, um a lot has happened between us.
Emma: Then what’s the problem?
Hook: I’m the problem. Emma, you were the Dark One for six weeks and only gave in to the darkness out of love. I plunged in headfirst in a second for revenge! I was weak!
Emma: Not in the end.
Hook: You raised the bar very high, Swan. The fact is, I don’t measure up.
Emma: Let me be the judge of that. If you didn’t, would I have come all the way down here to try to save you?
Hook: That’s my point. I’m not sure I deserve saving.Emma keeps insisting that she should be the judge of Hook’s behavior for herself, but that has led Hook to drinking heavily and lying to avoid being deemed unworthy in her sight. By making herself the judge of Hook’s behavior, the yard stick of measuring when he is “good” and “bad” enough for her to accept his offer of marriage, she has condemned Hook to keep lying to her (i.e. about the shears of destiny and the murder of her grandfather). At least Hook seems to see himself clearly. Emma seems to have these blinders on.
Re: Emma. I’m just totally puzzled by what the audience is supposed to see. If this were a YA story, and therefore didactic, you would expect a cathartic fight with the main female character’s best (preferably male) friend who, after weeks of pouting, finally blows up with a “I don’t like the person you’re becoming!” thereby articulating the audience’s discomfort and suspicion that maybe this isn’t how a healthy relationship should look. But the fact that Charming forgave Hook makes me think the writers are completely oblivious to how Emma is coming across.
I just….don’t really see how any of this could be unintentional or unconsciously done on the part of the writers or the actors, but I’m afraid it really is.
Here’s what I don’t quite get. I can’t get over the fact that Emma the character is supposed to be in her early 30s. She’s a grown up woman, for crying out loud, but her emotional development seems so stunted that what seemed like a charming character flaw in the early seasons — I remember people writing about how she has the emotional maturity of a 12 year old boy — is no longer charming, but really heart-breaking and a little pathetic….At this point, Emma’s had the time and emotional support to grow and develop, but it just seems like she’s gotten worse, not better. So what gives?
Emma hasn’t made any lasting or real progress emotionally speaking. Yes, she was closed off and has opened herself up to love, but I think almost too much the other way. That is what codependeny is. It’s when you have issues of intimacy and boundaries. Before, she didn’t have any intimacy. She was closed off and jaded after Neal left and after a lifetime of feeling like an orphan. Yet, she opened her heart to Henry, Mary Margaret, August, the town and it was wonderful to behold. It’s interesting that it was her family who showed her how to have healthy intimacy. Yet, then Hook had to be the one to “knock down her walls.” Well you know what? Sometimes walls are there for a reason! We wear armor to protect ourselves! Sure, people, especially women, can be vulnerable and let in people whom we know are safe like trusted loved ones, real friends and family, but we shouldn’t let down our guard for just anyone or we risk being hurt! Sadly, there are bad people in the world who would prey upon people, especially broken women who come from a vulnerable population, as Emma does. Hook used to be a sexual predator, too. He said that his tactic for getting women to sleep with him was to get them too drunk to resist his “charms.” He was a sexual predator and she is still an emotionally vulnerable young woman, despite being 30-something.
Heck, honestly, she seems to be regressing. I am not (or I hope I am not) confusing her “walls” with maturity. I don’t mind characters being vulnerable, we have seen that in all the other adult characters on the show, that is normal, and that is healthy. But she seemed more functional in her day to day life in season one/two/three. I don’t mind the odd bought of not being able to function.
She still feels like a lost little girl, despite having found her parents, but Emma needs to learn that armor is there for a reason because it lets in the safe people and keeps out the bad people. Emma has fallen for a man whom she never never previously would’ve let in had it not been for her lifetime of abandonment issues. Emma feels like an orphan, and as a dark one, Hook used that fact to prey upon her known vulnerability, to attack her emotionally, and then physically to threaten the very family whom she’d spent a lifetime seeking. And now Emma has chosen said former predator over the parents whom she’d been looking for forever and threatened to make her baby brother grow up without their parents.
Now Hook and Emma have been shown to have true love (a la pixie fower, dumbest magical MaGuffin ever), but then again, so have Rumbelle, the other bad-boy/good-girl couple on the show, who’ve also been shown to have an unhealthy power dynamic and similar history of lying, deception, and betrayal. At least Rumple is now being honest with Belle about his addiction. He even straight up said in 3×13 that he’s addicted to dark magic but that he doesn’t want it for his son. At least that shows some progress for their relationship and character growth for Rumple. So what do we really expect? I dunno anymore with these writers.
"That’s how you know you’ve really got a home. When you leave it, there’s this feeling that you can’t shake. You just miss it." Neal Cassidy
Now Hook and Emma have been shown to have true love (a la pixie fower, dumbest magical MaGuffin ever), but then again, so have Rumbelle, the other bad-boy/good-girl couple on the show, who’ve also been shown to have an unhealthy power dynamic and similar history of lying, deception, and betrayal.
Here’s how I’m reading the show’s intended audience reaction for these two couples:
Rumple: *lies about something; it surfaces*
Belle: You are a horrible person, a true villain and I don’t care whether you live or die.
Audience: Yeah! Right on! Boom!Hook: *lies about something; it surfaces*
Emma: We’re cool, I would have done the same thing.
Audience: Awww, it’s true love, please have babiesBelle forgives Rumple
Audience: Stupid girl! That’s so unhealthy!Emma forgives Hook
Audience: Awww, it’s true love, please have babiesI think it might be a pattern.
Here’s how I’m reading the show’s intended audience reaction for these two couples: Rumple: *lies about something; it surfaces* Belle: You are a horrible person, a true villain and I don’t care whether you live or die. Audience: Yeah! Right on! Boom! Hook: *lies about something; it surfaces* Emma: We’re cool, I would have done the same thing. Audience: Awww, it’s true love, please have babies Belle forgives Rumple Audience: Stupid girl! That’s so unhealthy! Emma forgives Hook Audience: Awww, it’s true love, please have babies I think it might be a pattern.
Yup, that. And I don’t want to make it all superficial but is it because CS is *that* much more compelling than Rumbelle. I’d say no. So what’s the major difference? Is it just that Colin is traditionally young, handsome, former bad boy?
"He was a lot of things to me" "The only conclusion was love"Both @runaroundmacy and @Phee sent this podcast my way. I haven’t had a chance to listen yet but I’m going to. It’s a podcast about Supernatural but at the 10min mark or so, they begin to discuss television writing and what some of the signs that the writing staff has given up are. So even if you don’t know who the characters on SPN are or what the story is, the theory behind it should still ring some bells.
Supernatural: The Crossroads – ‘The British Invasion’ – Episode Discussion
ALSO I am linking this review of last week’s episode (link cause of language) and about what’s going on with Emma Swan. Take a look at the side by side picture comparison of the character. It speaks to what @Slupeez has been pointing out about deliberate choices being made by writers, actors, and even the costumers/make up artists. I still don’t think it’s fully 100% deliberate but there’s no denying that those changes are there.
"He was a lot of things to me" "The only conclusion was love"Yup, that. And I don’t want to make it all superficial but is it because CS is *that* much more compelling than Rumbelle. I’d say no. So what’s the major difference? Is it just that Colin is traditionally young, handsome, former bad boy?
Do I think CS is compelling. Heck NO! I find them almost nauseating, OK completely nauseating. I think you have two fans of OUAT, Captain Swan fans and everyone else. I think everyone else sees their relationship as dysfunctional and boring while CS fans see it as romantic. I think the CS fans are very loud and tend to make excuses for their characters. They tend not to analyze or accept character flaws while everyone else sees and accepts that their favorite characters are flawed.
Yes, I think it is because Colin is a traditionally young and handsome. I hate it when I hear someone say and I have heard it SO many times, Ah but he is so cute and look at those eyes. I think his character is also your traditional bad boy persona. I mean he is a young, handsome pirate.
Now as a Rumbelle fan there has always been kickbacks because of the age difference between Belle and Rumple and the fact that Rumple is not your traditional male figure especially before becoming the dark one. He is small, weak, powerless, and has done some not so brave things in his past. He is therefore set up to be a non traditional male partner for Belle and some of the audience is not going to buy into the non traditional male figure.
I also believe it is due to the demographics of the fans. I would love to see a survey on the typical CS fan, I would guess they are typically part of the younger audience (15-25) while Rumbelle fans are your 25-50. I am not sure and would love to see the demographic breakdown. I am unsure of the education breakdown either but I personally value intelligence over attractiveness and I would assume most Rumbelle fans are the same.
Me personally the reason I love Rumple is also the reason I hate Hook. I see Hook as a bully, a typical high school jerk who goes around picking on special needs kids not because he does not like himself but because they are weaker than he is and therefore don’t measure up to his standards. I see Rumple as a victim of these bullies who just wants to live his life and not be messed with. This is why Rumple is so in love with power now. It is easy to say power is not important if you have never truly lived without it, but try being truly powerless and it is easy to see how addicting it can be when you finally have it.
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