Emma + Baelfire = Swanfire

[thedarkonedearie]

Oh man, at the risk of getting annihilated on here I will tread cautiously….

I think you have two fans of OUAT, Captain Swan fans and everyone else.  I think everyone else sees their relationship as dysfunctional and boring while CS fans see it as romantic. I think the CS fans are very loud and tend to make excuses for their characters. They tend not to analyze or accept  character flaws while everyone else sees and accepts that their favorite characters are flawed.

Well I am not a CS fan.  And I’m not a SF fan.  I am an Emma fan and I’m a fan of whomever she feels she loves.  So this is not correct as I also have many other friends who watch the show and feel the same way.  And as far as making excuses, I could say the same about SF fans.  Both sides do it.

I also believe it is due to the demographics of the fans.  I would love to see a survey on the typical CS fan, I would guess they are typically part of the younger audience (15-25) while Rumbelle fans are your 25-50.  I am not sure and would love to see the demographic breakdown.

Well, I happen to not to be in this age demographic, but I also am not a CS fan.  Sooo…again idk.  You are labeling and I hate labels.  It is possible that fans find CS more compelling simply bc they enjoy the characters and not necessarily that Hook is a handsome bad boy.  It is possible, I know.  I find Hook compelling.  There I said it.

I am unsure of the education breakdown either but I personally value intelligence over attractiveness and I would assume most Rumbelle fans are the same.

Now I’m hoping you don’t mean education breakdown regarding fans of the show and who they find more compelling based on intelligence and education level.  Bc that would be disturbing and insulting.  If you mean whether fans value looks more over intelligence, than ok.  However, while you can say that Rumple isn’t as good looking Hook, he’s not ugly as Mr. Gold.  And you also can’t say that Hook is dumb.  It’s not as black and white as you are portraying it.  Hook isn’t dumb and Rumple isn’t ugly.

I see  Hook as a bully, a typical high school jerk who goes around picking on special needs kids not because he does not like himself but because they are weaker than he is and therefore don’t measure up to his standards.

And where does this come from exactly?  Sure, he was drunken pirate before.  But now?  You still feel like he’s a bully in high school?  Picking on special needs kids?  And even if that was true, all the bullies that clearly bullied you back in the day, are they not redeemable?  Can’t they change like Hook has?  Do you really think they are just useless and incapable of turning their life around?  I personally know someone in high school who was a horrible bully.  Now, he’s turned everything around.  Apologized to everyone, and is a genuinely nice guy.  And we have all seen Hook’s change, so honestly if you still feel like he’s the bully from high school who picks on special needs kids and that’s why you don’t like him, well then you are seriously holding a grudge.  And I can’t help but think that if Emma was still with Neal, you wouldn’t still feel this harsh about Hook.  And I hate to bring that up on here, but you make it so easy with this hate about a character who has been good for over two seasons.

[Rainbow]

would love to see a survey on the typical CS fan, I would guess they are typically part of the younger audience (15-25) while Rumbelle fans are your 25-50.  I am not sure and would love to see the demographic breakdown.

can`t give you what you ask, but is very telling the demo ratings age, actually, all shows look for a 18-49 year demo, however how they get to those results is interesting, they use the demo age data from 18-34 and from 25 to 54 years old, and something funny, the younger demo age data results( 18-34) is very low to ouat, they always get around 0.6/0.5 on those demo age, however the other one, is the one that is keeping ouat ratings more or less up, which means that are the older people that still keep the show , so those results are interesting.

here is the link for spoiler tv sunday ratings, they also have all ratings from sundays there at the chart, is just click on the date u want.

http://www.spoilertv.com/2017/04/ratings-news-17th-april-2017.html

Also, about Cs and RB fans, i can tell you that sometimes older people are worst than younger ones, there are some huge bullies from CS fandom, that most have more than 30 years and there is even some crazy people( i know this bc they go to all MRJ after ouat projects to trash him) that have btw 40 and 60 people, and they are mostly older, single woman, that probably dream in having a younger toy boy.

Also another thing, more in terms of “trend”, i believe the reason why there are so many cs fans( well if we ignore the ghosts social media account, were many fans may have more 100 accounts in several places to pretend a character has a lot of fans, but that is not the issue here), is not so much bc of the story, yes, the shallow ideas are also part of that, the cute, villain boy that falls for the innocent savior, but also has something that all of us in our lives already saw and even may have pass by, the sense of like i said before “fashion”, if is a trend, if everyone says that something is great and amazing, people just go along with, no question, that is what happen, to how Cs started getting lots of fans,the moment, abc, cast, media started saying that was the “It” thing, they dont question, they go along with it, this is reason, why many SF fans even changed to CS or even SQ( this not bc of canon, but bc they are very vocal as well), bc if they lost SF, they didnt want to be called outlaws, they wanted to be part of the popular gang.

There was a show runner some years ago, that was talking on twiter about how networks do their marketing and how that relates with the writers/show runners writing their shows and he said something like, ” If your show tells one story and the network marketing tells another, the network wont say they are wrong and change their marketing, no, the story told on tv will have to be changed to tell the same story that the marketing is telling”, never forgot this, and totally fils, into ABc marketing, that even on beginning s2, around winter finale, posted a trailer of abc iconic and timeless love stories and even tho Cs was not even a thing then, they used them, that screamed for the young, influenced minds that cs was the “Hit” story and everyone should support them and that lead to most media praisong hook looks and trashing Neal, so the story had to change, bc the network sort of “brain wash”( yes this is also a term that can be used in marketing, that is common brand term) the fans into what they should support.

"I offended you with my opinion? Ha, you should hear the ones I keep to myself".

[AKA]

Well I am not a CS fan.  And I’m not a SF fan.  I am an Emma fan and I’m a fan of whomever she feels she loves.  So this is not correct as I also have many other friends who watch the show and feel the same way.  And as far as making excuses, I could say the same about SF fans.  Both sides do it.

Well then I guess you don’t fit into what I am saying.  I am not talking about Emma fans I am talking about CS fans and I believe I made that very clear.

You are labeling and I hate labels.  It is possible that fans find CS more compelling simply bc they enjoy the characters and not necessarily that Hook is a handsome bad boy.  It is possible, I know.  I find Hook compelling.  There I said it.

What is wrong with demographic labels? I think it helps us understand the audience and why they may prefer something over another. If you are a certain age then you are a certain age, if you look for intelligence over looks then that is what you look for. I am basically saying that I would be interested in looking at the demographic markers for each character or ship and seeing what if anything they have in common.

However, while you can say that Rumple isn’t as good looking Hook, he’s not ugly as Mr. Gold.  And you also can’t say that Hook is dumb.  It’s not as black and white as you are portraying it.  Hook isn’t dumb and Rumple isn’t ugly.

actually I think Rumple is much better looking than Hook, to each their own.  I am not looking at this in black and white I am simply saying that maybe just maybe demographics might play into it.  If you don’t buy that Okay.

And even if that was true, all the bullies that clearly bullied you back in the day, are they not redeemable?

Wow talk about making assumptions, first you are assuming that I must have been a victim of bullying becasue I am so empathetic with them.  So let me tell you I wasn’t.  I am a school counselor who has to deal with this kind of persona at times and I hate it. That does not mean I hate the bully or feel that they can not change, it means that while I don’t dislike them as a person I most certainly dislike their actions.  And yes I do see Rumple as a victim of bullies all his life which most certainly included Hook.

And where does this come from exactly?  Sure, he was drunken pirate before

Oh I don’t know how about when he made a crippled and powerless Rumple try and duel him on his ship.  How about when he shoved a homeless beggar (disguised Rumple) to the ground because he thought it was funny.  This is exactly what I was saying non CS shipper, you can’t even see that he was a bully who bullied Rumple?

personally know someone in high school who was a horrible bully.  Now, he’s turned everything around.  Apologized to everyone, and is a genuinely nice guy.

Well I guess when Hook apologizes to Rumple we will see, I see Hook as someone who has apologized to only Belle for his past behaviors (and as I have said before I think part of this is him sticking it to Rumple).  Has he apologized to anyone else? Maybe if we saw Hook actually trying to make amends for all his bad deeds then okay, but also like I have said before his bad deeds get swept under the rug with no real redemption.  I mean lets’ face it it was only last season that he tried to kill the whole town and told Rumple that he would have given Milah back “dirty”

And I can’t help but think that if Emma was still with Neal, you wouldn’t still feel this harsh about Hook.  And I hate to bring that up on here, but you make it so easy with this hate about a character who has been good for over two seasons.

I am not going to say that I was not a SF fan because I definitely preferred that ship to CS but it is not as has never been my main character ship.  So to answer this statement you are wrong I am being harsh to Hook becasue I don’t think they have tried to redeem him as they should.  He has not apologized to anyone other than Belle. You can’t base your entire character redemption off of only this paltry relationship which by the way also hurts Rumple which is part of the reason I feel he has befriended Belle. When Hook apologizes to Rumple, Regina, and even Snow then we will see until then yes I think he is still a bully who given the chance would  bully those weaker than him. As for him being good for the last two seasons? Was he not the dark one is season 5 and was he not horrible.

[TheWatcher]

Maybe if we saw Hook actually trying to make amends for all his bad deeds then okay, but also like I have said before his bad deeds get swept under the rug with no real redemption.

THIS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Charming doesnt even care tht he killed his father. Neither Charming nor Emma nor anyone cares that Hook tried to hide the fact and lied to them, and now everyone is gearing up for a wedding!!!! There are no reprecussions for ANYTHING when it comes to Hook.

People act like we just pick on this character and then ignore the show is literally doing the thing we hate about him RIGHT NOW.

Here’s how I’m reading the show’s intended audience reaction for these two couples: Rumple: *lies about something; it surfaces* Belle: You are a horrible person, a true villain and I don’t care whether you live or die. Audience: Yeah! Right on! Boom! Hook: *lies about something; it surfaces* Emma: We’re cool, I would have done the same thing. Audience: Awww, it’s true love, please have babies Belle forgives Rumple Audience: Stupid girl! That’s so unhealthy! Emma forgives Hook Audience: Awww, it’s true love, please have babies I think it might be a pattern.

Basically. Honestly, on this show any character can be criticized, except Hook.

"I could have the giant duck as my steed!" --Daniel Radcliffe
Keeper Of Tamara's Taser , Jafar's Staff, Kitsis’s Glasses , Ariel’s Tail, Dopey's Hat , Peter Pan’s Shadow, Outfit, & Pied Cloak,Red Queen's Castle, White Rabbit's Power To World Hop, Zelena's BroomStick, & ALL MAGIC

[thedarkonedearie]

Well then I guess you don’t fit into what I am saying.  I am not talking about Emma fans I am talking about CS fans and I believe I made that very clear.

Chrystal clear.  However, while I may not be a CS fan per say, I enjoy them together, just as I enjoyed Neal and Emma together.  But I do fit into what you’re saying bc I like Emma with Hook bc I like Emma and want her to be happy.  And I don’t fit into your “demographics.”  So yes, it’s relevant bc you aren’t including the fans  like me who just like Emma and are completely ok with her being with Neal or Hook.

What is wrong with demographic labels? I think it helps us understand the audience and why they may prefer something over another. If you are a certain age then you are a certain age, if you look for intelligence over looks then that is what you look for. I am basically saying that I would be interested in looking at the demographic markers for each character or ship and seeing what if anything they have in common.

I was talking about labeling SF fans as people who value intelligence and labeling CS fans as people who value looks.  You implied this and that’s not fair nor is it accurate.

Oh I don’t know how about when he made a crippled and powerless Rumple try and duel him on his ship.  How about when he shoved a homeless beggar (disguised Rumple) to the ground because he thought it was funny.  This is exactly what I was saying non CS shipper, you can’t even see that he was a bully who bullied Rumple?

Grudge.  This was years ago.  Do you hold Regina’s past against her?  She slaughtered a village.  And don’t say Regina has changed but Hook hasn’t.  The fact that he has changed is now canon (Charming has said it multiple times now) and if you don’t recognize this, you have a grudge that you aren’t letting go.

Well I guess when Hook apologizes to Rumple we will see, I see Hook as someone who has apologized to only Belle for his past behaviors (and as I have said before I think part of this is him sticking it to Rumple).  Has he apologized to anyone else? Maybe if we saw Hook actually trying to make amends for all his bad deeds then okay, but also like I have said before his bad deeds get swept under the rug with no real redemption.  I mean lets’ face it it was only last season that he tried to kill the whole town and told Rumple that he would have given Milah back “dirty”

Rewatch the last two seasons.  He has change and apologized to many people.

am not going to say that I was not a SF fan because I definitely preferred that ship to CS but it is not as has never been my main character ship.  So to answer this statement you are wrong I am being harsh to Hook becasue I don’t think they have tried to redeem him as they should.  He has not apologized to anyone other than Belle. You can’t base your entire character redemption off of only this paltry relationship which by the way also hurts Rumple which is part of the reason I feel he has befriended Belle. When Hook apologizes to Rumple, Regina, and even Snow then we will see until then yes I think he is still a bully who given the chance would  bully those weaker than him. As for him being good for the last two seasons? Was he not the dark one is season 5 and was he not horrible.

Let me finish by saying Rumple is one of my favorite characters on the show.  But Hook deserves just as much an apology from Rumple as Rumple deserves from Hook.  After all, Rumple did kill Milah (whom Hook loved) right in front of him and then chopped off his hand.  He’s the reason he is Hook.  It’s a two way street.  And again, Hook has apologized to plenty of people and has been on this path of redemption for two seasons now.

HIS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Charming doesnt even care tht he killed his father. Neither Charming nor Emma nor anyone cares that Hook tried to hide the fact and lied to them, and now everyone is gearing up for a wedding!!!! There are no reprecussions for ANYTHING when it comes to Hook.

True or false.  Hook apologized to Emma for thinking about leaving and apologized for trying to wipe his memories.  Then apologized to Charming.  TRUE.  The fact that the show dismissed it without any repercussions is not Hook’s fault as a character.  HE DID WHAT HE WAS SUPPOSED TO DO IN THE END.

People act like we just pick on this character and then ignore the show is literally doing the thing we hate about him RIGHT NOW.

I’m sorry but you guys pick on Hook the most.  Emma is a close second.  Followed by Rumple.  Which is fine, but let’s not just blatantly ignore the fact that he is not the same person he was when they introduced Hook to us.

[nevermore]

Well I am not a CS fan.  And I’m not a SF fan.  I am an Emma fan and I’m a fan of whomever she feels she loves.

@AKA’s response was to the discussion about whether the audience interprets RB vs CS in a way that is inconsistent, in the sense that similar actions get surprisingly different reactions, and what’s responsible for the apparent difference (which indeed brings up the question of whether the network considers Colin marketable as a heart-throb and invests accordingly). I don’t think that’s necessarily reducible to a shipping question (are you CS or RB or SF), but to a question of different interpretation of seemingly similar messages, and what structures these interpretations aside from fan loyalty.

But prior to that, the conversation was actually about Emma and how Emma is portrayed (by JMO, by the writers, by the aesthetics of the show etc) in her relationship with Hook. I think the convo was not just about the writing, it’s about the whole aesthetic package of Emma in the last few seasons. That was one of @Slurpeez ‘ points up-page with that screen shot, and I am pretty sure other people have noticed it too because I remember similar convos from some time back. Emma looks unhappy, pale, with shadows under her eyes that are accentuated by her make-up, her expressions are always kind of tortured, and it’s not just JMO’s portrayal, it’s also the aesthetic choices they make for her costumes and make-up, the choice of music and lighting that seem to be signaling a particular… mood, if not message. That’s why we’re still debating this question of whether the show runners have a unified front on how they are interpreting this couple, or if there’s a kind of double-voicing happening. Taken cumulatively, it’s hard not to feel that there’s something unhealthy about Emma, that something is off. Now, is this a message about CS, or is this a message about Emma more generally — I think @Slurpeez’ point, and I tend to agree with her, is that it’s actually Emma herself. Like, there’s something deeply wrong with her, and so what she brings to the relationship with Hook — totally bracketing out how one might feel about Hook in this instance — isn’t quite right either. In other words, just because she loves Hook, as you say, and that this is her choice (which of course it is) doesn’t mean the relationship is necessarily healthy.

It’s hard to deny the show’s trying to communicate something about Emma’s state of mind. CS is affected by this — it might not be its cause. But you know, next thing you know, and this happens:

 

[AKA]

I was talking about labeling SF fans as people who value intelligence and labeling CS fans as people who value looks.  You implied this and that’s not fair nor is it accurate.

\

The quote that I referred to was between CS and Rumbelle fans.  I did not imply anything of the sort I simply said that I prefer intelligence over looks and would assume that most rumbelle fans do also. Any other assumptions were not mine.

Grudge.  This was years ago.  Do you hold Regina’s past against her?  She slaughtered a village.  And don’t say Regina has changed but Hook hasn’t.  The fact that he has changed is now canon (Charming has said it multiple times now) and if you don’t recognize this, you have a grudge that you aren’t letting go.

I don’t hold Regina’s past against her because she has had a legitimate and well written redemption arc.  Hook has not.  He does something wrong and everyone just forgets about it or just automatically forgives him.  This is a pattern with the writing and I happen to not like it.  I don’t care what Charming has to say about Hook changing, if I as an audience viewer don’t see it, then I don’t see it.

Rewatch the last two seasons.  He has change and apologized to many people

name them and what he said, I can only think of Belle but as I am not a huge Hook fan there could be more, maybe I am wrong.

Let me finish by saying Rumple is one of my favorite characters on the show.  But Hook deserves just as much an apology from Rumple as Rumple deserves from Hook.  After all, Rumple did kill Milah (whom Hook loved) right in front of him and then chopped off his hand.  He’s the reason he is Hook.  It’s a two way street.  And again, Hook has apologized to plenty of people and has been on this path of redemption for two seasons now.

Rumple has done a lot of horrible things as the dark one especially killing Milah but should he apologize to Hook for this, I don’t know.  You are going to hate my reasoning but here it is.  Hook should have never loved Milah in the first place, she was a wife and MOTHER who abandoned her family and never asked about them again. Hook got his hand chopped off because Milah and Hook thought it would be a good idea to try and play with the dark one. She should have just given him the bean instead of throwing it to Hook.  I have absolutely no sympathy for Hook here.  He made Rumple feel powerless and cowardly all so that he and Milah could sail away from her responsibilities as a wife and mother. This goes back to a much earlier debate we had about Rumple and Belle and Rumple being either offensive or defensive.  I still ascertain that Rumple is a defensive player and it can be seen here also.  Rumple went after Hook because he stole his wife and more importantly his son’s mother (don’t hurt my child by taking away his mom and I won’t come after you) Hook then decided to take revenge and did all of the following to Rumple: left Bae in Neverland knowing that Rumple was looking for him, physically hurt Belle and was going to kill her until Regina stepped in, Stole Bae’s shaw so Rumple could not leave Storybrooke to find his son, Tried to hurt Belle in the Library, Shoved a gun in Belle’s face on the ship, shot Belle at the town line, stabbed Rumple in New York, I could go on but I think you get my point. What did Rumple due in return, he decided not to kill Hook on the ship, decided not to kill Hook in the hospital, and again decided not to kill Hook on the way to Neverland.

[nevermore]

Let me finish by saying Rumple is one of my favorite characters on the show.  But Hook deserves just as much an apology from Rumple as Rumple deserves from Hook.  After all, Rumple did kill Milah (whom Hook loved) right in front of him and then chopped off his hand.

Isn’t there some kind of unwritten rule whereby if you steal someone’s wife/husband/partner who is also the parent of their child, you should avoid gloating about it or rubbing it in their face? You know, have the politeness to do it discreetly and with minimum showing off? Certainly you don’t imply that the disabled husband’s lack of virility led the wife to prefer gang rape by sailors to raising his son. Yeah, no. Hook can take a running jump on that one, I don’t think Rumple owes him a thing. To Milah, yes for killing her x2. To Hook? Pfft.

[AKA]

Isn’t there some kind of unwritten rule whereby if you steal someone’s wife/husband/partner who is also the parent of their child, you should avoid gloating about it or rubbing it in their face? You know, have the politeness to do it discreetly and with minimum showing off? Certainly you don’t imply that the disabled husband’s lack of virility led the wife to prefer gang rape by sailors to raising his son. Yeah, no. Hook can take a running jump on that one, I don’t think Rumple owes him a thing. To Milah, yes for killing her x2. To Hook? Pfft.

Thank You, that was much better said and exactly what I meant

[thedarkonedearie]

You are conveniently forgetting all the horrible things Rumple has done and only listing all the bad things Hook has done.  To say that Rumple is only defensive is insane.  I don;t have the will power to list all the things he has done on this show.  Hook saved Henry and saved Belle and Rumple this season.  No props for that?

And as far as Milah goes, Milah basically willingly left and their marriage was rocky ever since he avoid the war.  It’s not like Hook stole her from him.  She was done with Rumple.  I thought that was pretty obvious.  To say that’s completely Hook’s fault is ridiculous.  And then to say that justifies Rumple behavior of cutting off Hook’s hand and then killing Milah when he realized she loved Hook and not him…..I mean come on.

[Author]

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