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But what you’re saying is that a strong female is someone who turns a bad guy into a good guy which is in effect turning that strong female into just an object or vessel for a man’s redemption. That is not the definition of a strong female and it’s a very specific kind of misogyny.
But would you say that if Emma was Emmett. And he turned around a girl who was a druggie in her past? Emma was already a strong female character before she met Hook. So I don’t believe you can just say that OUAT’s message is that a strong female character is someone who turns bad men into good men. In this case, Emma was Hook’s vessel, sure. She was what he needed to turn his life around. But why is that a bad thing? I’d feel the same way if the genders were reversed. So again, I’m not saying that a strong female IS someone who turns a bad guy into a good guy. I’m saying that Emma WAS ALREADY a strong female character, and her strength has helped many people, but specifically Hook.
By your logic, a woman can never turn a man’s life around without making them look like an object just to get the man to where he needs to be in life. But if that’s your view, then you have to be equally annoyed if Emma was a man and Hook was a girl. Feminism is about equality right? So it works both ways. And I’m sorry, but regardless of gender, if someone is able to become a better person and be the person they always should have been bc someone else helped them turn it around, that is a great message and that is a message that springs hope in people who made me in a bad point in their life. To muck that message up with female gender dynamics just seems forced to me. Again, just my opinion.
[adrotate group="5"]Huh? So you’re not supposed to miss your significant other when they are away? And you aren’t supposed to be happy when you see them? What on earth are you smoking? I get that Emma seems to prioritize Hook over everybody else now, but the statement you just said makes absolutely zero sense. She doesn’t depend on Hook for her happiness. But he certainly helps with it. And when he’s missing, that’s a part of her happiness missing.
There’s a difference between missing your partner when they are away and throwing everyone else under the bus because you can’t bear to be without your partner.
All magic comes with a price!
Keeper of FelixBut what you’re saying is that a strong female is someone who turns a bad guy into a good guy which is in effect turning that strong female into just an object or vessel for a man’s redemption. That is not the definition of a strong female and it’s a very specific kind of misogyny.
But would you say that if Emma was Emmett. And he turned around a girl who was a druggie in her past? Emma was already a strong female character before she met Hook. So I don’t believe you can just say that OUAT’s message is that a strong female character is someone who turns bad men into good men. In this case, Emma was Hook’s vessel, sure. She was what he needed to turn his life around. But why is that a bad thing? I’d feel the same way if the genders were reversed. So again, I’m not saying that a strong female IS someone who turns a bad guy into a good guy. I’m saying that Emma WAS ALREADY a strong female character, and her strength has helped many people, but specifically Hook.
By your logic, a woman can never turn a man’s life around without making them look like an object just to get the man to where he needs to be in life. But if that’s your view, then you have to be equally annoyed if Emma was a man and Hook was a girl. Feminism is about equality right? So it works both ways. And I’m sorry, but regardless of gender, if someone is able to become a better person and be the person they always should have been bc someone else helped them turn it around, that is a great message and that is a message that springs hope in people who made me in a bad point in their life. To muck that message up with female gender dynamics just seems forced to me. Again, just my opinion.
However, that point of view only plays into the “I can change him with my love” trope which in real life is a very dangerous game to play.
All magic comes with a price!
Keeper of FelixBy your logic, a woman can never turn a man’s life around without making them look like an object just to get the man to where he needs to be in life. But if that’s your view, then you have to be equally annoyed if Emma was a man and Hook was a girl. Feminism is about equality right?
You’re still largely missing the feminist critique point. It has nothing to do with love or turning someone’s life around. It’s about agency, which is what I said many pages back. Yes, fall in love and be a helpmate but if in doing so the character loses themselves and their story and their agency and if their story only becomes about one specific thing–a romantic partner–then they aren’t a strong female (or any gender) character. Emma’s entire story centers around Hook. There have been examples of this over this last year alone. To wit:
–When she talked to Archie about dying it was about how Hook would lose his happy ending. Now, would I expect her as a thinking and feeling human to care about her partner? Absolutely! She’d be a weird cold fish if she didn’t. But he was her first concern. Her first concern should be HERSELF! She should be worried about dying because it means her life is over. Her second concern should be everyone else–which means Snowing, and Henry, and Regina and Hook and the town she’s sworn to protect!
–When Gideon came to her for help just a few episodes ago he told her that the Black Fairy is torturing children. When Emma finally agrees to help him she says it’s because he reminds her of Henry (yes, good…!) but then she doubles down on the REAL reason she’s helping him—not because Gideon reminds her of Henry and not because of the children who are being held captive and tortured but because “let’s get my pirate back.”
–She should want Hook back. Of course she should! But she doesn’t even hesitate about letting Snow give her the magical flower to go and save him even though it means that Snowing may never wake up and that her brother might be raised without parents which is EXACTLY what happened to Emma. Emma of a few years ago would have done everything in her power to prevent a child from growing up alone because of how much that has affected her.
–Emma telling Hook that she made the situation difficult when he was caught lying about Charming.
If those are too specific when was the last night Emma had any significant screen time with someone who isn’t Hook or Regina? You could say this last episode but her entire focus was on Hook to the point when her mother sacrificed herself and her husband for Hook, Emma was totally nonchalant about it. So nonchalant that when Hook came back she didn’t tell him to put the brakes on while he’s proposing while her parents lie unconscious in the other room. When was the last time she did anything with Henry? Or another female who isn’t part of a fandom romantic wish (ie: Regina). When was the last time Emma had a friend??
"He was a lot of things to me" "The only conclusion was love"Just wanted to point out that Screwball Ninja reviewed this episode and agreed with almost everything we are saying. Emma is not Emma anymore and Hook has not had a true redemption arc. It was a great review and very funny as always. I am just pointing this out, because she is known to be extremely fair to Hook and Emma and very analytical to her ship (Rumbelle) so it is not just “this website” that sees CS as a problem right now.
Just wanted to point out that Screwball Ninja reviewed this episode and agreed with almost everything we are saying. Emma is not Emma anymore and Hook has not had a true redemption arc. It was a great review and very funny as always. I am just pointing this out, because she is known to be extremely fair to Hook and Emma and very analytical to her ship (Rumbelle) so it is not just “this website” that sees CS as a problem right now.
If you could, would you’d link it? I’d like to read it (not just for this debate)
I stopped reading Screwball awhile back because she had a bit of a pro-CS slant and largely disagreed with her. (
"He was a lot of things to me" "The only conclusion was love"By your logic, a woman can never turn a man’s life around without making them look like an object just to get the man to where he needs to be in life. But if that’s your view, then you have to be equally annoyed if Emma was a man and Hook was a girl. Feminism is about equality right?
You’re still largely missing the feminist critique point. It has nothing to do with love or turning someone’s life around. It’s about agency, which is what I said many pages back. Yes, fall in love and be a helpmate but if in doing so the character loses themselves and their story and their agency and if their story only becomes about one specific thing–a romantic partner–then they aren’t a strong female (or any gender) character. Emma’s entire story centers around Hook. There have been examples of this over this last year alone. To wit: –When she talked to Archie about dying it was about how Hook would lose his happy ending. Now, would I expect her as a thinking and feeling human to care about her partner? Absolutely! She’d be a weird cold fish if she didn’t. But he was her first concern. Her first concern should be HERSELF! She should be worried about dying because it means her life is over. Her second concern should be everyone else–which means Snowing, and Henry, and Regina and Hook and the town she’s sworn to protect! –When Gideon came to her for help just a few episodes ago he told her that the Black Fairy is torturing children. When Emma finally agrees to help him she says it’s because he reminds her of Henry (yes, good…!) but then she doubles down on the REAL reason she’s helping him—not because Gideon reminds her of Henry and not because of the children who are being held captive and tortured but because “let’s get my pirate back.” –She should want Hook back. Of course she should! But she doesn’t even hesitate about letting Snow give her the magical flower to go and save him even though it means that Snowing may never wake up and that her brother might be raised without parents which is EXACTLY what happened to Emma. Emma of a few years ago would have done everything in her power to prevent a child from growing up alone because of how much that has affected her. –Emma telling Hook that she made the situation difficult when he was caught lying about Charming. If those are too specific when was the last night Emma had any significant screen time with someone who isn’t Hook or Regina? You could say this last episode but her entire focus was on Hook to the point when her mother sacrificed herself and her husband for Hook, Emma was totally nonchalant about it. So nonchalant that when Hook came back she didn’t tell him to put the brakes on while he’s proposing while her parents lie unconscious in the other room. When was the last time she did anything with Henry? Or another female who isn’t part of a fandom romantic wish (ie: Regina). When was the last time Emma had a friend??
ALL OF THIS!!!
"If you go as far as you can see...you will then see enough to go even further." - Finn Balor
Just wanted to point out that Screwball Ninja reviewed this episode and agreed with almost everything we are saying. Emma is not Emma anymore and Hook has not had a true redemption arc. It was a great review and very funny as always. I am just pointing this out, because she is known to be extremely fair to Hook and Emma and very analytical to her ship (Rumbelle) so it is not just “this website” that sees CS as a problem right now.
Because one person on Tumblr means anything?
Oh or are you talking about all the bitter SQ shippers online that are gonna boycott the episode.
The funniest thing is none of those people live in the USA so watch or not watch they don’t matter to ABC.
This is the only forum online that is anti CS and that’s why this place is a safe-haven for the CS haters. Hey though somethings we all need our safe place.
When was the last time she did anything with Henry? Or another female who isn’t part of a fandom romantic wish (ie: Regina). When was the last time Emma had a friend??
Does it have to be on-screen to count? Or can it be referenced on screen? Because if the latter, to be fair: The canoe trip. Though I am sure it is just because they needed an excuse for Emma to need to go the shed when Hook and Charming were skulking about 😉 and away in general for the Hook/Charming centric episode.
f you could, would you’d link it? I’d like to read it (not just for this debate) I stopped reading Screwball awhile back because she had a bit of a pro-CS slant and largely disagreed with her. (
http://screwballninja.tumblr.com/
No Problem, my son had to help me as I am technologically inept. I agree that Screwball Ninja is known to be very fair to all characters and ships and she has been especially Pro-CS. So even she can see what the writers are telling everyone who is not a CS fan or a I just want Emma to be happy fans, and that is Emma is no longer Emma and Hook is still not on a redemption arc.
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