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Some people will believe anything they’re told. Maybe water fluoridation affects them quite profoundly? Thank goodness OUAT isn’t propaganda with a nefarious purpose, that’s all I can say.
[adrotate group="5"]@AKA – Thanks for the suggestion to read ScrewBallNinja. I had also given up on her blog, but I think I’ll give her another try. I found her essays about Emma to be especially good. She says that Emma and Hook this season have been continuing with with Dark Swan arc in S6, which I thought was insightful. She has another recent essay about Emma that uses GIFs to show Emma’s progression from heroine to dark swan. Also, here is a link to a GIF set comparing and contrasting Emma’s reactions to people in need of help from S1 to S6. *sigh* What happened to Emma Swan?!
I actually kept on with Screwball — I think her analyses are insightful and her general model for how the writers intermittently turn up the dial on Rumple’s darkness depending on the quality of the seasonal villain is dead on. I don’t know if she has a film studies background, but the ways she approaches OUAT not just as written text, but as a whole package is really useful — this is what makes her Dark Swan theory have legs, I think.
I am not saying we can’t discuss matters about the show. I am saying that this is by and large pointless because no matter how many times we are called bitter, no matter how many times we explain feminist critique or no matter how many times we are told that we’re too harsh on Hook/Emma/the writers/the show we’re never going to get anywhere.
For what it’s worth, I actually don’t mind the circularity of the debate — it can be helpful to have someone stick to an opposite position in an argument, since it allows you to clarify your own thinking. For this reason, I actually appreciate @darkonedearie ‘s contributions, though I think I can count on the fingers of one hand the times we agreed 🙂 Of course, once the conversation gets shaped around trolling for lulz — which is what I think this last iteration is — there’s nothing particularly interesting about it.
For what it’s worth, I actually don’t mind the circularity of the debate — it can be helpful to have someone stick to an opposite position in an argument, since it allows you to clarify your own thinking. For this reason, I actually appreciate @darkonedearie ‘s contributions, though I think I can count on the fingers of one hand the times we agreed Of course, once the conversation gets shaped around trolling for lulz — which is what I think this last iteration is — there’s nothing particularly interesting about it.
Agree Completely, I love to debate and I appreciate an opposite side even if we don’t come to a middle ground.
I actually appreciate @darkonedearie ‘s contributions, though I think I can count on the fingers of one hand the times we agreed Of course, once the conversation gets shaped around trolling for lulz — which is what I think this last iteration is — there’s nothing particularly interesting about i
I agree. And I also like DoD’s contributions though the only thing he and I have ever agreed on is that Edward Nygma on Gotham is awesome. But yes, this current iteration has some different hallmarks.
I’m really just asking that we try to be respectful, guys. We’re getting to that special boarderline place this time around.
"He was a lot of things to me" "The only conclusion was love"the only thing he and I have ever agreed on is that Edward Nygma on Gotham is awesome.
Well yeah, he is awesome! And I will say this. I know you guys criticize all ships on here. However, there is a reason that all CS fans left. And it’s simple. It’s because you usually have nothing good to say about the CS ship. Sure, you critique other ships, but many times you have good things to say about them as well. You almost never have anything good to say about the CS relationship. And I’m sorry, but the relationship isn’t all that bad, certainly not as awful as you guys paint it out to be. So if all CS fans see on here is complete negativity toward a relationship they love, then they are going to leave bc that naturally ruins the show for them. And I’m not saying everyone in these forums never has anything good to say about the CS relationship. I’ve seen occasional comments that support it when it’s deserved. But many people on here have nothing nice to say and it comes off as if these two characters can’t do anything right to get you to buy into or at least kind of support their relationship and these characters being “happy.” And, since I see a lot of it in this particular SF thread, where you continue to praise the show’s earlier seasons and how it used to be good when Neal was with Emma and how now the show isn’t good anymore etc, it comes off like you just will never even consider liking CS’s relationship bc Hook just isn’t Neal. And I’m sure that is not the intention, but boy does it come off like that. So again, while you say that you critique all ships and that you still welcome CS fans, they likely don’t feel welcome bc you’re overwhelming love for SF has subconsciously made you harsher on CS, and in my opinion, on Hook. To me, these characters can’t do anything right anymore in many of your eyes. Just something to chew on…
I think that this conversation is different because a lot of times we are having the conversation about the in universe point of view verses the writer point of view and that is interesting. We are talking about the larger themes of the show and how those can impact the audience. I think that things are being said happened on the show that did not happen on the show, in my opinion. The Hook fan rhetoric is not really something i am really interested in seeing in the swanfire thread.
At least not when the people stating the Hook fan rhetoric don’t really want to have a discussion. They just want to state “facts” and be agreed with and that is it.
It’s because you usually have nothing good to say about the CS ship. Sure, you critique other ships, but many times you have good things to say about them as well. You almost never have anything good to say about the CS relationship.
This is because the show promotes the heck out of the relationship; we’re told repeatedly on the show that they’re the most romantic thing since Romeo and Juliet. So why repeat the rhetoric? It’s like with Snowing – they don’t get much fanfare because they don’t need it – the show does it all for them. The problems with Hook and Emma’s relationship are not acknowledged by the show, hence all the discussion.
And, since I see a lot of it in this particular SF thread, where you continue to praise the show’s earlier seasons and how it used to be good when Neal was with Emma and how now the show isn’t good anymore etc, it comes off like you just will never even consider liking CS’s relationship bc Hook just isn’t Neal.
Logical fallacy. You’re equating correlation with cause. The show was simply better written in the earlier seasons, and that’s just when Emma happened to be with Neal. Many people loved S1 the best, and we didn’t even know about Neal in S1.
To me, these characters can’t do anything right anymore in many of your eyes. Just something to chew on…
A subconscious bias is quite likely, but is just as likely to work both ways. You yourself admitted a few days ago that you were probably more forgiving of Emma and Hook’s actions as the Dark Ones than you were of Rumple. If you check out the CS thread, there is quite a bit of rhetoric in there at the very end which suggest a very strong pro-CS subconscious bias. We all have them, and the best we can do is construct thoughtful arguments to back up our positions.
So again, while you say that you critique all ships and that you still welcome CS fans, they likely don’t feel welcome bc you’re overwhelming love for SF has subconsciously made you harsher on CS, and in my opinion, on Hook.
That’s fair but honestly. That’s just fandom. Not just OUAT. But all fandoms. I had to stop going to other forums because of their very pro-CS/anti-SF slant. Just like my overwhelming love of SF might make me harder on CS, then the opposite is also true. I cannot stress this enough: there was a time when the CS thread was much longer than the SF thread and it had its fair share of Neal bashing. A lot of it, right along side their love of Hook and CS. It’s how fandoms, shippers, operate. Hence why ship threads became safe havens around here.
There are some places that are incredibly pro SQ that I don’t frequent. I pretty much avoid all the OUAT tags on Tumblr because it’s very heavy pro-CS anti-SF. This is just how fandom works. For any fandom. As an SFer I don’t really feel welcome anywhere so, yeah, I stick to my little OncePodcast bubble because there are like minded people here.
And like you said there are many of us who do say nice things about CS/Hook when they happen but you act as if it’s only one or two of us and that’s not fair. Several very pro-SFers have stated just within the last few pages that Hook doesn’t bother them as much/is more tolerable/ect than he used to be. Don’t paint us all with one brush please
"He was a lot of things to me" "The only conclusion was love"It seems that sf or sq or oq are open game in the fandom however cs is off limits for critique. For the most part that talk was reserved to ship threads however prying eyes are curious to want to know what the other side is saying. Why even set yourself up for reading something that you know you won’t agree with.
As for bullying. It’s not bullying to disagree on a subject or ship. saying I don’t like this character this storyline or this relationship is not bullying. Bullying gets tossed around way too much. I’ve experienced bullying I’ve been teased ridiculed physical assaulted during my school years. However I have debates regarding relationship philosophy best star trek captain or who is the strongest mutant. People didn’t agree with my notions or beliefs all the time and you know what I loved it and never felt bullied because I thought captain Picard was the best captain.
People left because they were bored, moved forward, life happened or they simply couldn’t have their way there are several reasons however IMO bullying is simply not one of them.
"I will be kind but I will speak my mind."
I think the thing that offends me the most about this show is that Disney/ABC allowed a show to use their canon, they allowed them to use the Disney names and the Disney clothing and the Disney songs even and lean on them in Ouat. That is unheard of and it might only be this one show that is allowed to do that. To treat the Disney versions as something we know about these characters and as far as i am concerned they completely wasted it.
In Season 1, they used our childhood memories of the Disney movies as sort of a backdrop for which they fleshed out their ideas. That was really interesting. It wasn’t a retelling of the Disney versions exactly, it was building upon those preconceived notions about the Disney versions. Like they didn’t have to explain who the mad hatter was or who Red Riding Hood is or who Jiminy Cricket is or who the dwarfs are, it was just known and then they tangled it all together and made it their own and made it more.
That just stopped at some point. I, actually, think it was Season 3A when they did just Neverland. They stopped tangling the stories all together and they stopped fleshing out from what we know and instead just rewrote the story. There are things i like about 3A. Pan, Rumpel, Bae, Tink, some good Emma and Snow, some good Henry being Pan, some good Regina in there even, but still it felt stilted. We knew they were going to escape. We knew that everyone was going to be fine and there was no tangling of Neverland with the other fairytales. It was all Neverland and that was it. Rumpel being Pan’s father was the only twist there and it was good, but it left a lot of filler going on that season.
This might be it. This might be the one chance that a tv show gets to use the Disney canon in this way and it just is so frustrating because of how badly this show is written. Just think if someone could have written like a multi generational, family oriented show with their new fairytale characters and incorporated that into the Disney canon in a cohesive and consistent and well written way, it would have been epic. If this show was internally consistent characterwise, world building wise, storywise it would have been remembered as one of those cult favorites and would still be talked about like Buffy in twenty years.
That is not going to happen now, in my opinion, and this might have been the one chance where someone is able to use the Disney in this way and it is just disappointing to me in every way. It is such a good idea and it was just so badly executed.
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