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RG– I agree, they wanted to erase GOAT–and another LOST reference, they were “Nikki & Paolo’d”. On Lost they tried to introduce some side characters but they weren’t well received and they ended up more or less with a quick end to their storyline just like GOAT, rarely mentioned again.
I know I talked before about LOST too, that sometimes the actors didn’t want to stay or didn’t work out, and they adjusted story arcs around those things too. This happens and much as they did plan many, many things out like those easter egg numbers and all–there were many story lines that were dropped or hacked that jarred with later ideas. I watched it one summer, so those things really stood out sometimes.
I am half-afraid here that the fan pressure is just going to drive the story in a direction they didn’t originally intend. How can anyone say “it is all planned” for years, when they’ve said it was both “we write for the fans” and they have their own story? We know they break into story camps each season. So if they say something is planned–from what point? Years back, in their minds, or when the series was greenlit? Or maybe some things are plotted out in those Season to Season story camps, after getting some fan feedback. I’m absolutely positive GOAT going that fast was a decision made AFTER the S2 ended, not at the start of planning and plotting S2. Ruby’s “Child of the Moon” story with that symbol of the moon also seemed to hint at something else we never saw, perhaps leading into more Camelot.
On a separate note–someone pointed out that Emma has on Graham’s shoelace still. I’m not sure what to make of that. I think it was on her wrist when the new memories hit, so there’s some story in her mind of who’s shoelace it is, but it isn’t like she looked down and just couldn’t take it off for some mysterious reason. I really dont’ think they were “true love” simply because she didn’t really know the real him, his huntsman personality at all. All she knew was the version Regina created, and the other had only barely started to break free. Plus Emma only admitted to being in love once, and we know she was in love with Neal. He was, according to Adam and Eddy, the love of her life, plus in that episode she says that line and we flash to Neal and Emma. So I know it’s just one of those things that’s out there in people’s minds, that Graham was the only guy Emma ever loved and was her “first love” because it helps set up a “parallel” with Hook losing Milah–but I don’t think that’s what the writers were necessarily going for with that.
Supposedly they authorized the graphic novel which says Graham was in true love with Red (hah, the huntsman raised by wolves and a lady who turns into one…) but that wasn’t reflected at all on the show.
Sometimes I feel like the various writers on this show just aren’t on the same page at all, and it ends up creating some of the moments that confuse the fandom about what is going on.
[adrotate group="5"]“If I had a world of my own, everything would be nonsense. Nothing would be what it is, because everything would be what it isn't. And contrary wise, what is, it wouldn't be. And what it wouldn't be, it would. You see?” -- Lewis Carroll, Alice's Adventures in Wonderland & Through the Looking-Glass
I also would love for a flash back where Bae saves a baby swan aka ugly duckling and nurse it back to health.
"I will be kind but I will speak my mind."
I am half-afraid here that the fan pressure is just going to drive the story in a direction they didn’t originally intend. How can anyone say “it is all planned” for years, when they’ve said it was both “we write for the fans” and they have their own story? We know they break into story camps each season. So if they say something is planned–from what point? Years back, in their minds, or when the series was greenlit? Or maybe some things are plotted out in those Season to Season story camps, after getting some fan feedback. I’m absolutely positive GOAT going that fast was a decision made AFTER the S2 ended, not at the start of planning and plotting S2. Ruby’s “Child of the Moon” story with that symbol of the moon also seemed to hint at something else we never saw, perhaps leading into more Camelot.
Without reading too much into it, with all the drama that happened this weekend and how almost scared Adam seems to be of SQ nation, it does make me worry that they bend ot pressure more than they want to admit. They have said time and time again SQ isn’t happening but when it’s reiterated by a cast member, Adam spends all day doing the apology and #hope thing.
On a separate note–someone pointed out that Emma has on Graham’s shoelace still. I’m not sure what to make of that.
Yeah I don’t either. What is the story she has in her had to explain that.
Supposedly they authorized the graphic novel which says Graham was in true love with Red (hah, the huntsman raised by wolves and a lady who turns into one…) but that wasn’t reflected at all on the show.
mod Matt has a theory that the graphic novel was supposed to an episode or two of S2 but got shelved once they got NL/PP rights.
I do worry about them finding balance between making fans happy and keeping to their vision, whatever it is.
"He was a lot of things to me" "The only conclusion was love"A very good essay about Neal’s reaction in 311
Neal’s reactions are always about camouflaging his pain, pretending that what he feels isn’t actually what he feels. When he’s mad, he laughs. When he’s upset, he pretends he doesn’t care and can walk away. When he’s happy or hopeful, he shuts down, afraid to let anyone see how much he wants this, how much he’s hoping in case it’s taken away from him (except with Emma, who can actually manage to pull a real, tiny smile from him at times, as if he can’t quite help himself; and Henry, who gets full open grins from him because there’s no painful past there to trip him up, nothing but hope). And knowing that, seeing his entire reaction to Rumplestiltskin’s death just kills me.
He’s trying so hard to pretend, to keep going, to take the sacrifice and move on so it can accomplish what Rumplestiltskin died to do, and he can’t hold it. He can’t keep the neutral expression or the defensive smile or t he mirthless laughs. It all folds and crumbles up and he’s left exposed and vulnerable. And when Emma touches him, when she says she’s sorry, it makes it too real. He has to move on, has to keep pretending, because he’s been wearing his persona so long, he doesn’t know how to go without it. He’s standing there, looking toward where his papa died, and all he can do is keep putting one foot in front of the other. It’s what he did when he came to our world as a kid and lived on the streets, what he did in Neverland as first a kid on a pirate ship and then a lost boy, and what he did when he came to our world again and faced being on the streets and alone — and what he did after leaving Emma, living his life, going to a job and his apartment and through life, just putting one foot in front of the other even when it rained through the window and his phone/ipod (so not good at technological terms, but ignore that) falls to the ground. Just keep moving. Keep going.
But he can’t. Because he was just learning that it was okay to be happy again, that he could have a son and a father and a woman his father loved and maybe even Emma if she’ll have him. And now it’s all crumbling beneath his touch, just like always. So he stands there, and he tries to pretend, and it doesn’t work. he tries to move on, and he just can’t hold it.
So he’s quiet. Still. Lost. A lost boy again, and he should never have had to be that, not after his papa came for him.
And I love how all of that is conveyed so perfectly though his stiltedness and his starts and stops through this scene and the next, until he finally finds something to hold onto in his promise to Emma and Henry that he will see them again. Maybe he can’t pretend well enough to hide this pain, but he can follow his papa’s example. He can refuse to give up and promise to find them again. He can set himself against worlds and fate and time in order to see his son again. He can, because his papa did, and for the first time in centuries, his father is someone he can look up to and aspire to be like again.
It’s not enough, but it’s something, and for the first time, Neal is ready to hold on and not let go. For the first time, he knows that he can have a happy ending, because his papa promised him.
His papa loved him.
"He was a lot of things to me" "The only conclusion was love"OMG that Neal post! How can people not sympathise with this character?! OMG I need to hug him, right now!!
As for the writers altering things to give in to the fanbase, it’s the nature of the medium that if something seems to not be popular with the masses, or if it just doesn’t end up materialising in a way the writers themselves had hoped, they’ve gotta be open to altering things along the way. I think (hope) that with the case of Emma and Neal’s story, it’s such an integral part of the basis of the whole show that it’s a vision they won’t be swayed from, (especially after they were briefly tempted to switch things up when everyone guessed that Neal was Bae, but ultimately decided to remain committed to their original vision).
I dunno what the exact source of this is, but apparently Eion suggested in an interview at some point that the original plan was to have a love triangle between August/Emma/Neal. Then along came Hook, and he was SO popular, and fans instantly started shipping CS, so it made sense for the writers to adjust their vision, and transplant Hook into the triangle instead of their original plan. If what Eion said is actually true, then a triangle of some sort has always been their plan, and the common denominators were Emma and Neal, which means whoever the third person is, they’re intended at be an obstacle for the endgame couple.
So let’s say that by the latter half of S2, they’d decided that that was gonna be the new triangle, which is why they wrote August being turned into a kid again, (I’ll be forever annoyed by that nonsense), but they still kept writing Hook as doing crappy stuff, even right up to the recent eps, like the thing with hitting on Tink. Meanwhile, they’ve still been writing Neal as being in love with Emma, and vice versa, but it being hard for them to get it together. So while they might have re-imagined the specifics of the triangle, and as a result have been throwing in some CS moments here and there, it seems to me that their original endgame vision is still intact.
I dunno what the exact source of this is, but apparently Eion suggested in an interview at some point that the original plan was to have a love triangle between August/Emma/Neal. Then along came Hook, and he was SO popular, and fans instantly started shipping CS, so it made sense for the writers to adjust their vision, and transplant Hook into the triangle instead of their original plan. If what Eion said is actually true, then a triangle of some sort has always been their plan, and the common denominators were Emma and Neal, which means whoever the third person is, they’re intended at be an obstacle for the endgame couple.
I wish we had a source for that, cause I’ve heard it a lot lately. I do remember an article during the summer before S2 where it did tease that Emma would “have several suitors” and the article predicted Henry’s father, August, and Jefferson.
I do think that they intended to have a love triangle with Emma/Neal/someone else. Which sorta says that “someone else” is the false romantic lead.
"He was a lot of things to me" "The only conclusion was love"Of course my mental fanficition has taken off with Neal feels himself getting to emotional, excuse himself saying the fire is getting low and he will get some firewood. Where he starts to cry (because he lost, his father, Emma, Henry, Darlings, all in one day and he just learn his grandfather wanted to kill him) but Charming follows him and tell him its okay, empathize with him and encourages him, assures him that no matter what He is family and will always be family. They hugs not as bros but as “father” and “son.” Then he says come on we will bring that firewood back together. And of course Snow is comforting Belle because of course she is now family to.
Family feels, Goes off to cry.
I can totally see that playing out in my head. So bittersweet! It huuuuurrrrts!
People found Neal wanting another chance with Emma offputting due to the recent nature of his engagement? Do these same people have no problem with Hook taunting Emma into kissing him and and imagining he’s in love with Emma 4 – 5 days after leaving her for dead?
Yes they did. And yes they have no problem with it. The double standards make me wanna *HEADDESK*.
I look forward to the new perspective on things that Emma will have after regaining her memories. In Emma’s previous reality (real reality?) she gave up Henry and put her feelings in a box, choosing not to deal with them. Her reaction to Neal in Manhattan was raw pain. However, raising Henry will have forced her to deal with Neal and the way he left and to have processed some of her emotions. Not all. Neal left and it still hurts Emma, but everytime Henry makes a friend they both have to address where his dad is. Every parent/teacher conference Emma has to confront Neal’s absence. Anything that happened during the Lost Year are real memories. I think that when Neal and Emma meet again, she will be coming from a different emotional place. Still angry, but not raw.
That’a a really excellent point, and it could well be another reason they decided to do this time jump, so that Emma will be in a different place emotionally now when it comes to Neal, so it’s setting up a situation where their relationship can progress with new understanding, and less pain.
Here is something interesting from Tumblr
– Fate, destiny whatever you wanna call it –
8:15 – 8+15 = 23 (LOST numbers)Would someone who watched “LOST” please tell me the significance of the numbers 8:15 and 23?
Speaking of numbers, I saw a thing on tumblr recently where it had a screencap of Henry at the bus station, and you could see the numbers 3 and 4, and then it had a screencap of Neal at the train station, and you could see the number 5.
It’s not a LOSTie number thing, might not even be significant at all, but it stuck in my brain nonetheless because maybe they went back to re-watch the scene of Henry in a mass transit station in 101 to see if they could use anything from it as setup for Neal’s scene in a mass transit station in 201.merry christmas swanfires love how alove this thread is keep at it 😀 heres an early xmas present
Thanks for the pretty Christmas pressies, Lauren! 🙂
calling out to a young Emma staring out that very window as she watches the boy with the hoodie run away. Closes in on her face and wonders why she can’t shake the feeling that she will see him again.
Please let something like this happen!!!
So let’s say that by the latter half of S2, they’d decided that that was gonna be the new triangle, which is why they wrote August being turned into a kid again, (I’ll be forever annoyed by that nonsense), but they still kept writing Hook as doing crappy stuff, even right up to the recent eps, like the thing with hitting on Tink. Meanwhile, they’ve still been writing Neal as being in love with Emma, and vice versa, but it being hard for them to get it together. So while they might have re-imagined the specifics of the triangle, and as a result have been throwing in some CS moments here and there, it seems to me that their original endgame vision is still intact. Quote
101 % agree with this notion! I was re-reading a post I wrote over a year ago at the debut of “Tallahassee” concerning August, Neal and Emma. Even I’m amazed that I recognized SF as being True Love straight off the the bat. I’d actually started out wishing Captain Swan to happen! It’s been over a year, and I’m amazed that even then, I recognized the writers as wanting to denigrate August’s character in order to preserve the integrity of Neal as Emma’s true love! Looking back, I think that I only wanted Hook with Emma in the short-term, because of the “challenge” that they represent to one another, but even then, I realized how truly Emma loved Neal. What solidified it for me was seeing “Manhattan” and then “Second Star to the Right.” To me, it just seems obvious that while Emma and Hook may have a fling, Emma and Neal are each others’ true loves! They’re two lost children who found each other in an otherwise cruel world, dreamed of a home together but were torn asunder by outside forces. Neverthless, their love remains. The rest of their story is about how two people who love each other, but were separated, can nevertheless learn to work that out. Emma and Neal’s reconciliation is a story of hope, because it flies in the face of today’s western world in which a lot of couples never learn to work out their issues, forgive, or reconcile.
Emma and Neal giving up because of the curse or Emma’s destiny as the savior would seem empty, unhappy, and desolate in my opinion. The point of their story is that real-life couples can overcome adversity to learn to forgive and reunite, that love does overcome hurt, and that second chances are possible in an age when people are in desperate need of another go at life. That is why Emma and Neal’s story represents hope, because Emma and Neal are most like us; they’ve both grown up in our world where most people don’t get another chance, don’t get to reunite with their first loves, and don’t get to atone for their mistakes. Yet, if Emma and Neal can make it work, then it gives everyday normal people hope that they can make their relationships work, even when there is a history of pain, misunderstanding and disappointment. Real life isn’t always a fairytale like Snow and Charming, who never seem to lose faith in one another except when they’re cursed. So often, real-life couples mess up, make mistakes, say things they don’t mean, and hurt each other when they don’t want to. Emma and Neal’s relationship, though influenced by supernatural events, is still seemingly normal compared to heroic tales, and so I can’t help but root for their everyday fairytale to come true!
"That’s how you know you’ve really got a home. When you leave it, there’s this feeling that you can’t shake. You just miss it." Neal Cassidy
Yet, if Emma and Neal can make it work, then it gives everyday normal people hope that they can make their relationships work, even when there is a history of pain, misunderstanding and disappointment. Real life isn’t always a fairytale like Snow and Charming, who never seem to lose faith in one another except when their cursed. So often, real-life couples mess up, make mistakes, say things they don’t mean, and hurt each other when they don’t want to. Emma and Neal’s relationship, though influenced by supernatural events, is still seemingly normal compared to heroic tales, and so I can’t help but root for their everyday fairytale of loss, foreignness, and reunion to come true!
This sentiment times 10000000000000000000.
"He was a lot of things to me" "The only conclusion was love"
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