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@Schmacky wrote:
I want them to work for it, to earn their happiness, not having it come wrapped in a box like Snow/Charming did, even if it’s understandable in their case.
I gotta defend Snow and Charming here. While pretty much right away they fell in love with one another, they by no means had their love “wrapped in a box.” They definitely had to work for it. Just the amount of times they’ve been separated and had to fight to stay together is staggering. Their love has been tested and tried and came out on top but they earned their happiness.
Snow and Charming had a lot of outside obstacles in the way of their love while Neal and Emma will have a lot of internal obstacles to deal with. Though different, I find both very interesting and entertaining.
Actually, you didn’t contradict much what I intended to say (which perhaps might’ve not been with the best words).
What I meant by “wrapped in a box” was precisely that: Snow and Charming don’t have psychological issues either inside or between themselves to act as obstacles in their relationship; as such, they’d have had their happily ever after way earlier if there wasn’t external factors – namely Regina and George – keeping them apart. Even so, the series begin with their marriage and the very expected birth of their only child, a point in a relationship that neither Neal/Emma nor Rumple/Belle are (or, in Neal and Emma’s Tallahasse relationship’s case, were) remotely close to being, with Henry’s conception being pretty much unintentional.
[adrotate group="5"]What made Charming and Snow’s love so “true” I think were the struggles, temptations and separations. So I agree–I don’t think Neal and Emma ought to be getting together so early in the show’s overall life, even if in the story it has been a long time for them to have met and first fallen in love with each other.
That said–that tweet is definitely NOT confirmation of anything. H&K are quite clever with how they answer tweets or questions, and I think the earlier this month tweet that there is a “rhombus” not just a triangle definitely hints at quite a bit of complicated emotional drama to come.
I’m still split a bit on how it could play out–which is why I like this storyline more than Snowing or Rumbelle. It is more wide open as Emma is on a journey still, as is Neal to understand what true love, specifically romantic true love, means. The writers could have chosen to have Emma “just know” that Neal was alive, rather than almost fatalistically accept his death (just like Rumpel did of course). They did a few other things too that could be the writers pitching a curve ball for Emma. I like the idea of Emma and Neal having a chance though to work through the issues that brought them together and tore them apart, but this separation suggests that might not happen until after she could fall for someone else.
In a way, I saw the Tamara storyline as Neal and Emma’s version of the Abigail/Katherine & Siren storylines. The difference is, Neal did not get that blinding realization moment that he doesn’t love the “Temptress” until after she shot him and Emma came to his rescue. So I’m wondering, does that mean he failed, or does it mean the plot kept him from being able to pass the test, because it is not over yet. If you want SF as endgame, you see it the latter way. Charming’s ordeals were over relatively quickly–in a matter of episodes anyway. There’s always the possibility that the writers mean something with the differences.
“If I had a world of my own, everything would be nonsense. Nothing would be what it is, because everything would be what it isn't. And contrary wise, what is, it wouldn't be. And what it wouldn't be, it would. You see?” -- Lewis Carroll, Alice's Adventures in Wonderland & Through the Looking-Glass
While I do think SF are end game, I think it is first very important that Emma and Neal become people in their own independent right. I don’t want the message of this show to suddenly be: Emma’s abandonment issues are healed by a man! It wouldn’t play out well in my eyes. Emma needs to learn to trust again and Neal needs to move past Tamara and also mend his relationship with his father. Once they’ve become less damaged people, then they can be together. This is why I’ve always said that CaptainSwan has to happen, he can help Emma open up and again trust before they both realize that the relationship isn’t meant to be. (I stand by this though the portal scene in SSTR really threw this idea for a loop). The biggest argument against SF I see is that people really don’t like Neal. They think he’s a bad guy because of the choices he made (like letting August talk him into sending Emma to jail). Neal and Emma need to have open and honest discussions about that and come to an understanding (though I think Emma in many ways has already forgiven Neal because she got where she was supposed to go, a place she never would have gotten to if Neal hadn’t done what he did) before anyone not on the SF boat accepts them as together.
"He was a lot of things to me" "The only conclusion was love"@KFChimera wrote:
H&K are quite clever with how they answer tweets or questions, and I think the earlier this month tweet that there is a “rhombus” not just a triangle definitely hints at quite a bit of complicated emotional drama to come.
Ah yes, the infamous rhombus, who will that 4th corner be? Gotta be a woman, because I don’t see them throwing a 3rd guy into the mix. I’ve seen suggestions that it’s the memory of Milah. Suggestions that maybe something will heat up between Nealfire and Mulan. My Hookriel shipper self obviously has an opinion. I think the most compelling would be an adult Wendy in present day, though. I could buy her carrying a torch for Nealfire if she’s found a way to keep herself alive this long to search for him. And K&H have said that one of the things Nealfire loved about Emma was that she reminded him of Wendy, so there could be some genuine conflict in him if Wendy pops up and wants to be with him. I doubt he’d be tempted in the slightest by anyone else at this point in time.
The writers could have chosen to have Emma “just know” that Neal was alive, rather than almost fatalistically accept his death (just like Rumpel did of course). They did a few other things too that could be the writers pitching a curve ball for Emma. I like the idea of Emma and Neal having a chance though to work through the issues that brought them together and tore them apart, but this separation suggests that might not happen until after she could fall for someone else.
Yes, I think that having everyone believe him dead has to be for a purpose, and after Nealfire’s declaration of love at the portal, if they ever wanna hook Emma up with someone other than him, they’ve gotta do it when she thinks he’s dead, or it just wouldn’t be believable.
In a way, I saw the Tamara storyline as Neal and Emma’s version of the Abigail/Katherine & Siren storylines. The difference is, Neal did not get that blinding realization moment that he doesn’t love the “Temptress” until after she shot him and Emma came to his rescue. So I’m wondering, does that mean he failed, or does it mean the plot kept him from being able to pass the test, because it is not over yet. If you want SF as endgame, you see it the latter way. Charming’s ordeals were over relatively quickly–in a matter of episodes anyway. There’s always the possibility that the writers mean something with the differences.
Frankly, I dunno how even those who don’t ship SwanFire could consider what happened between them at season’s end to be any kind of closure to their storyline. On the contrary, they finally both admitted to deeper feeling and confusion, and then they were immediately torn apart. No matter who you ship as endgame, that was a blatant storyline setup for those issues to be properly addressed whenever they’re reunited.
@RumplesGirl wrote:
While I do think SF are end game, I think it is first very important that Emma and Neal become people in their own independent right. I don’t want the message of this show to suddenly be: Emma’s abandonment issues are healed by a man! It wouldn’t play out well in my eyes.
And it would be especially unbelievable if her abandonment issues were instantly solved by a man who she feels abandoned her. She’s got a lot to come to terms with in her life as a whole. Baby steps.
Emma needs to learn to trust again and Neal needs to move past Tamara and also mend his relationship with his father. Once they’ve become less damaged people, then they can be together. This is why I’ve always said that CaptainSwan has to happen, he can help Emma open up and again trust before they both realize that the relationship isn’t meant to be. (I stand by this though the portal scene in SSTR really threw this idea for a loop).
Agreed. Though I obviously don’t follow the thought through to the same conclusion that CaptainSwan shippers do, they’re certainly right that the characters are similar and as such they get each other. That’s spelled out in ASOTM when Emma says, “You and I, we understand each other, look out for yourself and you’ll never get hurt, right.” Then she makes her impassioned plea and he (pretends to) buy into it, then the moment everyone else has cleared out he asks, “Why are you really doing this?” because he can read her because he’s the master of the ulterior motive.
I can see them becoming good friends…with benefits for a little while at least…because they’d each see the other as a safe haven of sorts. Emma’s been reeling from the uncertainty over her relationship with Neal, both past and present. When they met up again in Manhattan, she was full of questions about if any of it had even been real, and wondering what was going on in his head. She already knows how Hook’s brain operates, so he’s safe to get close to. From Hook’s perspective, he hasn’t let himself be vulnerable with a woman for over 200 years. Emma already understands him, so he can safely bond with her.
CaptainSwan happening would benefit each of them individually, be an effective transitional relationship to give them each a confidence boost so they can tackle other relationships in the future.
If they do become really good friends, and then that “moment” happens where it escalates to a sexy level, I totally cannot hold Emma at fault for that, coz, well, you’ve all seen him, right.
The biggest argument against SF I see is that people really don’t like Neal. They think he’s a bad guy because of the choices he made (like letting August talk him into sending Emma to jail). Neal and Emma need to have open and honest discussions about that and come to an understanding (though I think Emma in many ways has already forgiven Neal because she got where she was supposed to go, a place she never would have gotten to if Neal hadn’t done what he did) before anyone not on the SF boat accepts them as together.
People who really dislike Nealfire will always dislike Nealfire, no matter what. It’s interesting how different people can see the same story and interpret it in completely opposite ways, but life would be boring if we all saw things the same.
Had Nealfire stayed with her…
He wouldn’t be able to straight up tell her, “Hey, so here’s the deal, we’re both from FTL and came to this world via magical portals, and your parents are Snow White and Prince Charming, (and my dad is Rumplestiltskin, I know he’s not typically thought of as being a dad, but trust me, long story, but trust me), and you’re the “Saviour” who has to go break a Curse that’s imprisoning everyone from our homeland by trapping them without their memories in a town in Maine.” She’d have had him committed, their relationship would have ended, no one in SB would have ever gotten saved, and she never would have found her family. Everyone loses!He couldn’t stay with her and not attempt to tell her, because it would have been a massive and personal secret he’d be keeping from her, and that would have made him miserable, it would have come between them, and if he refused to tell her, it would have driven them apart.
He’d also have had the temptation to not tell her because he was scared of being reunited with his father. And it’s not really fair on Emma to keep her away from her family, just because he’s scared of being reunited with his. That would have eaten away at him every day, and again, it would have driven them apart. By letting her go on her Curse breaking journey, he was leaving himself open for that inevitable father/son reunion he was so dreading.
There was simply no way that they could have remained together at that point and be happy. They were screwed, and he was the only one with all the info, so he had to be the bad guy. He has a history of sacrificing his own wants for the good of others, as shown with the Darlings. Nealfire haters call him a coward for leaving Emma. I’d say it was an impossible choice and a brave move on his part.
Had Nealfire stayed with her…
He wouldn’t be able to straight up tell her, “Hey, so here’s the deal, we’re both from FTL and came to this world via magical portals, and your parents are Snow White and Prince Charming, (and my dad is Rumplestiltskin, I know he’s not typically thought of as being a dad, but trust me, long story, but trust me), and you’re the “Saviour” who has to go break a Curse that’s imprisoning everyone from our homeland by trapping them without their memories in a town in Maine.” She’d have had him committed, their relationship would have ended, no one in SB would have ever gotten saved, and she never would have found her family. Everyone loses!He couldn’t stay with her and not attempt to tell her, because it would have been a massive and personal secret he’d be keeping from her, and that would have made him miserable, it would have come between them, and if he refused to tell her, it would have driven them apart.
He’d also have had the temptation to not tell her because he was scared of being reunited with his father. And it’s not really fair on Emma to keep her away from her family, just because he’s scared of being reunited with his. That would have eaten away at him every day, and again, it would have driven them apart. By letting her go on her Curse breaking journey, he was leaving himself open for that inevitable father/son reunion he was so dreading.
There was simply no way that they could have remained together at that point and be happy. They were screwed, and he was the only one with all the info, so he had to be the bad guy. He has a history of sacrificing his own wants for the good of others, as shown with the Darlings. Nealfire haters call him a coward for leaving Emma. I’d say it was an impossible choice and a brave move on his part.
I agree about 1000%. I never saw Neal leaving Emma as vindictive of cruel on his part. It was necessary and it was incredibly brave of him. My question has always been: what was his other option?? A town of thousands were depending on her. Does your own personal happiness come before the needs of many? I’m a huge Star Trek fan so if I quote Spock: The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, or the one. Neal gave up his chance for his happy ending, to be healed with someone he truly loves, to save a town full of people(contrast that to Hook who left an entire town full of people to die to save his own skin. And yes he did turn around, but I did not read it as him turning around for Emma. He did it because he abandoned Neal once and now he’s dead and he has to honor Baelfire by trying to save Henry’s family and then Henry himself. Hook was very much like Rumple in this. In my head, it had nothing to do with Emma. They understand each other and they are alike, but he did not turn that ship around because of her. And not to say that Hook is without honor, but I just read that scene differntly). What Neal did hurt Emma, I agree. And they need to discuss that, but it was also what needed to happen. People act like Neal isn’t sorry he did it, but he flat out tells Emma at the beach that he hated what he did, that he never forgave himself. He is sorry but like Emma giving up Henry, Neal had to give Emma her best shot at finding her family and her true happy ending which has always been and will always be reuniting with her family.
"He was a lot of things to me" "The only conclusion was love"@RumplesGirl wrote:
I agree about 1000%. I never saw Neal leaving Emma as vindictive of cruel on his part. It was necessary and it was incredibly brave of him. My question has always been: what was his other option?? A town of thousands were depending on her. Does your own personal happiness come before the needs of many? I’m a huge Star Trek fan so if I quote Spock: The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, or the one. Neal gave up his chance for his happy ending, to be healed with someone he truly loves, to save a town full of people
Self sacrifice is how he rolls. He was willing to go fight in a war for the greater good of many. He gave himself up to the Shadow in place of the Darling boys. And he gave up Tallahassee with Emma for the good of her family and everyone else from their world. It takes strength to be able to do those things.
(contrast that to Hook who left an entire town full of people to die to save his own skin. And yes he did turn around, but I did not read it as him turning around for Emma. He did it because he abandoned Neal once and now he’s dead and he has to honor Baelfire by trying to save Henry’s family and then Henry himself. Hook was very much like Rumple in this. In my head, it had nothing to do with Emma. They understand each other and they are alike, but he did not turn that ship around because of her. And not to say that Hook is without honor, but I just read that scene differntly).
Hook turning his boat around had nothing to do with Emma, unless you count the fact that she’s the one who told him about Nealfire being “dead”. It was when he looked down at the scratched out marks next to the ship’s wheel, and remembered what Bae had said to him right before he’d scratched the marks out, that inspired him to turn the boat around. He did it for Bae. Bae’s greatest wish in life was for a stable, safe, happy family. Hook had torn his family apart by taking Milah away, then he screwed it up again when he couldn’t convince him to stay on the ship with him. Now what remained of Bae’s family – his son, and his father – were in danger in SB. Bae would have wanted them to be saved.
This also plays into why I wouldn’t be surprised if Hook steps away from Emma when Nealfire shows up again, and he’s obviously still in love with her.
What Neal did hurt Emma, I agree. And they need to discuss that, but it was also what needed to happen. People act like Neal isn’t sorry he did it, but he flat out tells Emma at the beach that he hated what he did, that he never forgave himself. He is sorry but like Emma giving up Henry, Neal had to give Emma her best shot at finding her family and her true happy ending which has always been and will always be reuniting with her family.
Ah, delicious parallels!
Henry: You don’t have to be hostile. I know you like me – I can tell. You’re just pushing me away because I make you feel guilty. It’s okay. I know why you gave me away. You wanted to give me my best chance.
Emma: How do you know that?
Henry: Because it’s the same reason Snow White gave you away.
Emma: Listen to me, kid. I’m not in any book. I’m a real person. And I’m no saviour. You were right about one thing, though. I wanted you to have your best chance. But it’s not with me. Come on, let’s go.
If Emma hasn’t already realised that Nealfire did the same thing for her, I’m sure she will at some point. And if Emma and Henry can build a relationship even after she gave him away 10 years previously, and if Emma and her parents can build a relationship even after they gave her away 28 years previously, then the same can happen for Emma and Nealfire.
Phee-Your entire post just made me smile (and aww out loud, LOL). Thanks for writing out how I feel about things right now and way better than I could have ever said it! I think the SwanFire journey is going to be extremely fascinating, heartbreaking, honest, and beautiful to watch and I cannot wait to see it.
I love this thread! 😀
#MoreBOOMLessGloomGreat points Phee and RumplesGirl!
I felt like Emma was already well underway with that healing process this season, but then she suffered two gut punches in a row, losing Neal and Henry in the same day. She has Snowing to help her, but she’s always going to be a bit cynical and guarded. She is vulnerable now, and Hook is sure to notice that.
I think it is unclear what motivated Hook–it could have been a combination of various things. I feel like the scene shown right before his decision to return is the flashback and the scratch marks, so the largest reason is probably guilt over abandoning Bae. I think Hook was watching very closely when Regina talked to Henry and revealed her plan to sacrifice herself for him. He did also seem affected by Emma’s words in the diner (though they alone didn’t convince him immediately), and it did seem like he addressed himself to Emma when offering his services to find Henry (rather than to all of them generally) and saying in response to her saying he didn’t care about anyone but himself, that he just needed a reminder that he could. Hook has been rethinking his life goals, ever since he saw Rumpel and Lacey stumbling together in drunk evil love, so how it all plays out will be interesting.
I do kind of feel bad for Neal if he comes back to find the love of his life has taken up with the same man that his mother chose over staying with him. He’s had a hard life, and I think faced a lot of hard choices. He hasn’t been a saint of course, and he did hurt Emma as deeply as his father hurt him (though he had much less choice/better reasons to do so). So I thought her being able to forgive him might in some way help Neal be able to do the same with Rumpel. Yet if he comes back and finds Hook and Rumpel in a kind of friendship, with Hook in a relationship with Emma–I could see that generating some unpleasantness. As Phee said, I wouldn’t blame Emma–she waited a third of her life for Neal and having thought she lost him, she could very well start thinking life is too short to waste alone. More or less, really what led Neal to Tamara, as the old song goes–if you can’t be with the one you love, then love the one you’re with.
I think Neal being in FTL may teach Neal to appreciate where he’s from more than he currently does. Yes, it is a barren wasteland, and I like the idea that he ends up solving the Ogre Wars problem in some way. Emma does have magic, and I can’t see her ever wanting to live in Tallahassee now with having ties to Henry and Snowing, and of course, even though she doesn’t really like it, to Regina. Emma definitely showed that she understood Henry considers Regina every bit as important a parent as Neal. So I don’t see Emma being comfortable with trying to live somewhere that would separate her family unit. Neal didn’t seem in that much of a hurry to leave SB though, so there’s that at least. FTL isn’t exactly nicer than when he left, so I hope his issues with magic don’t get worse.
“If I had a world of my own, everything would be nonsense. Nothing would be what it is, because everything would be what it isn't. And contrary wise, what is, it wouldn't be. And what it wouldn't be, it would. You see?” -- Lewis Carroll, Alice's Adventures in Wonderland & Through the Looking-Glass
Just want to share a vid I just made about these two.
@Schmacky wrote:
Just want to share a vid I just made about these two.
NICE! :’) I really love Nealfire.
"He was a lot of things to me" "The only conclusion was love"
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