Emma + Baelfire = Swanfire

[Slurpeez]

I really hope we get to see an image revealed soon in the star map! Tiara_Rose shared an image in the 3×4 sneak peek thread which attempted to reveal the image of a phoenix.

Time will tell whether that is correct or not.

According to the 3×5 press release, Hook and Charming go on a quest to retrieve a sextant, which can decipher the map. Maybe then we’ll see the way home (Tallahassee baby)! Wouldn’t be ironic if Hook is the one who uncovers an any potential image of a Phoenix constellation?

[Phee]

If someone ends up reading that star map, and they utter the words, “Phoenix constellation” I swear I’ll fall outta my chair and flail on the floor!

[kfchimera]

Ha, I almost made the reference to hoodies and Treyvon Martin too!  I am loving button-down Neal much more I admit, especially as someone pointed out both he and Emma are wearing grey shirts with slit pockets.  Their cast scene clothing is different, and I cannot find a picture right now to put side by side but sure someone has made a gifset thing.  Of course, what that means, who knows, but as a shipper spinning a speculation it is fun to notice.

I absolutely agree that the writers are intentional about many symbols, and planning in advance, but we fans do see a lot of things in those clouds that are mutually exclusive interpretations.  Some of it could be because they can’t fix what’s already been shot and in the can, nor do they want to when they know they’ve been keeping something back that might change how fans react at one point.  Yet I also suspect at times they start nudging along in a different direction.  I find all the new clues about ReHo to be a bit suspect, because to me it feels like something they came up with between Season 2 and 3, to meet Evil Regal demands to know that Regina might find romantic love again.  I jumped on board early even as far back as Stable Boy when it was just a theory thread of what type of famous fictional character, though I also liked Zorro 😛 I just did not see Regina clues in a very obvious way in pre RH, Ellis-era RH but I bet they will pop up everywhere now.

On the other hand, I think SF has symbols that say something about the characters in terms of intention, rather than being random things that work in a coincidental or ironic way.  So for example, Emma keeps the yellow bug where she and Neal met.  He keeps the dreamcatcher by his window.  People point out there are other dreamcatcher moments, but none of those work to say this character is keeping this item because of romantic love for this other character.

Another example is the Pirate motif that I see discussed for CS.  It always could go back to Neal too, since Neal spent time on a pirate ship, and it was the JR that brought him to SB.  Beans too, as Neal as Bae is the first character we associate with those things.  SF meet in Portland, then she ends up living in “beantown” (Boston’s nickname). That might be mere silly coincidence or significant detail, certainly something fans can spin various ways.  Compare the bug or dreamcatcher to a doll or painting that are background set pieces.  I think it is insignificant  compared to things the camera zooms in on, that the characters touch and speak about.  Those symbols carry less weight than the pendant might, and I really hope Neal does have it and we do see it back around her neck at some point.  Probably not yet, just as Adam tweeted they could do a Rumbelle wedding but the show would be over (sorry not as versed on my Rumbelle, I’m just so sure of those two that almost nothing upsets me about it and I can just relax and enjoy like Snowing.)

What does worry me for SF is not what I saw played out, but the potential to please the marketing brass, to make changes with a slow accumulation of new signs.  If I did not get online I would probably feel the same about SF, except I might see the print media efforts and wonder.

I do get online though and overthink like anyone reading this! So with that, I am not really seeing Emma or Neal’s happiness being defined as with other people.  Hook’s has only vaguely looked to Emma, and we have much to learn about his true history with Pan.  I have no doubt they want to redeem him and play him up for his devoted fans.  That does not mean they can only put him with Emma in order to secure his role in the show, and if anything it is a good reason NOT to put him with her.  The writers might want to get some more flirt out of him before he gets to the Charming-boring-hero zone.  The writers also can show real personal growth if he does not just think about his own desires.

Granted, if Emma wants him, then she does and that has been the central question on the CSF thread.  Even now people are saying on tumblr that Emma is angry AT Neal.  Well, she is, but she’s more angry in the “7 stages of grieving” sense, that she’s angry at the situation, at fate, that all that time they loved each other, and only found out too late.  She’s gone through shock, through blaming herself and others, and now she’s just angry.  I’m not sure if they will rush her through the next few stages (some models have 5 stages) and suddenly she’ll just be back to rational, calm and hopeful, then she notices Hook.  I still do not see her being drawn to Hook for who he actually is as a person.  It’s more like people are arguing she’s drawn in spite of the things he does and says to her, until of course, the end of last season when he began to actually help her.

Yet even as he is helping her get to Henry, much as she appreciates what he is contributing, he still keeps bringing up Neal.  Here’s Neal’s sword, here’s his cave, there’s his drawings, and it seems what they are building a bridge upon is their memories of Neal.  They haven’t once discussed any of the things that happened between Hook and Emma in the time they’ve known each other.  No apologies for throwing her into a wall or choosing to switch back to Cora, or the bean comparison, no thank you for saving his life against Rumple, or apologies for not helping more with Cora.  Or even, an apology for knowing about Tamara deceiving Neal and not doing one darn thing about it, despite apparently “missing” him so genuinely.  There are also no conversations about his sailing life or her growing up or just anything positive unrelated to the mission at hand, other than his one comment to know who she really is, when she clammed up.

I want to see good for Hook, rather than predict dark and ominous plot developments, but I’ve an active imagination too.   Just as people on tumblr are cooking up “Dark one Neal who rips out Emma’s heart and Hook sees his worst fear cannot happen” scenarios, I can imagine the opposite thing of Neal seeing Emma and Hook being his worst nightmare of Hook seducing away another woman from him.  Even if you fully acknowledge that Milah and Emma might have chosen Hook  it’s still wrenching for Neal.  Especially if he worries that Emma might abandon Henry.    I truly hope that is not what the writers do as I want Neal to have faith that Emma would NEVER give up Henry as his mother gave up him, and I want Neal to be understanding rather than jealous.  Neal knows he tried to move on, so I do not want him to blame Emma for basically doing the same thing.  I only want him to blame Hook a little, and then only because I do think it is true of Hook’s character that he is the active pursuer pushing buttons on a woman racked with guilt, fear, stress and in that sense, taking advantage of her emotional vulnerability.  That’s why I use the word “seduce” rather than “court”, or steal.  Steal is a bad word to describe the situation, as Emma’s agency (nor Milah’s) should not be discounted, yet for both women there is a hard-to-ignore coincidence that both are miserable and vulnerable when Hook  starts to flirt with intention.

I have not yet see Emma seek out Hook.  She even flatly says at the start of the NL adventure, we don’t need to be friends, nor does she expect or want that.  So a few days later how are we supposed to believe she’s fallen deeply in love with him? How do we believe she has gotten over a relationship she could not get over when she thought the guy didn’t love her, now that she knows he actually did?  If she was stuck on Neal thinking he’d set her up, how much more ache is there to lose him when he basically risked his life for her? When she saw he stepped right up to fatherhood, and loves her son every bit as much as she does?

I think Emma is about to start entering that phase where she tries to numb her pain because she cannot let these out-of-control emotions get in the way of getting Henry.  She’s tried rum.  She’s tried not talking.  Now she will be ready to try something else, just like Mary Margret did with Whale.  I don’t think Emma’s put her past with Neal behind, and is ready to open her heart to a new love, who’s earned her respect with patience, and selfless behavior.

As I said, I’m sort of holding back on the dark speculation because I like Hook (Hookriel!), but we don’t know much about Hook’s prior dealings with Pan.  We don’t know if, for example, Hook’s “good form” is what keeps him from being a more devastating villain, in the way Rumple’s “nasty habits” keeps him from being the good man he wants to be.  The single biggest non-shipper complaint about Hook (courtesy of television without pity viewers) is that he’s an incompetent villain and a let-down in that department.   I do agree it is intentional to keep Hook from being “over-the-line” like Cora, but look at Rumple and Regina.  The writers don’t need to keep him moral to keep him shippable, and I’d say, they haven’t bothered to try that hard.  There’s been no lasting damage to any prominent characters from Hook’s actions, yet that’s usually not because of his actions.  He did save Aurora’s heart and eventually tell everyone about the beans and bring them back, but on the other hand, he did nothing about Archie, Belle or the Princess Squad in the cell, or Anton in the ship.  He had his limits and survival to think about, very true, but it goes back to showing him to be selfish rather than heroic.  He’s like Gaston in some ways, out to kill the beast and get the girl but not in all the right ways.  I do think he is better than cartoon Gaston, but we barely saw anything of  doomed Rose-Gaston in ONCE.  I don’t know if they had planned more between Belle and Hook and got sidetracked by the broken leg or not.  Or maybe it is in the Maleficient /Cora way of going after the mother then the daughter that Hook is zeroing on Emma.  It is a passing thought that bubbled to mind after Regina told Snow she had been going about her revenge the wrong way and needed to take everything that could have belonged to Snow.

If Hook’s happy ending is Emma and Henry, then he sort of pulls off doing that to Rumple and Rumple’s son.  From Emma’s perspective that may be irrelevant if Hook is who she truly loves, but I am not convinced the writers set us up to root against Neal this way, or to think Emma really would be happier with Hook.  Then again, what we think is the happy ending for any character can always change as the writers are telling a story not writing a romance novel for Emma and any character.

 

 

 

 

“If I had a world of my own, everything would be nonsense. Nothing would be what it is, because everything would be what it isn't. And contrary wise, what is, it wouldn't be. And what it wouldn't be, it would. You see?” -- Lewis Carroll, Alice's Adventures in Wonderland & Through the Looking-Glass

[RumplesGirl]

Imma just let everyone read KFC’s post cause *applause*

"He was a lot of things to me" "The only conclusion was love"

[kfchimera]

Thanks! I was just burried  by a pile of “feels” and had to get it out.

“If I had a world of my own, everything would be nonsense. Nothing would be what it is, because everything would be what it isn't. And contrary wise, what is, it wouldn't be. And what it wouldn't be, it would. You see?” -- Lewis Carroll, Alice's Adventures in Wonderland & Through the Looking-Glass

[Slurpeez]

Great post, kfchimera! ETA: I’ve just now seen “the thing” in a sneak peek for “Good Form”

I only want him to blame Hook a little, and then only because I do think it is true of Hook’s character that he is the active pursuer pushing buttons on a woman racked with guilt, fear, stress and in that sense, taking advantage of her emotional vulnerability.  That’s why I use the word “seduce” rather than “court”, or steal.  Steal is a bad word to describe the situation, as Emma’s agency (nor Milah’s) should not be discounted, yet for both women there is a hard-to-ignore coincidence that both are miserable and vulnerable when Hook  starts to flirt with intention.

While I think Hook has had his eyes on Emma since they first met, for him to make a move on her while she’s still emotionally vulnerable would mean he still needs to learn a lot. From the sneak peek, it sort of looks like Emma is the one who actually plants one on Hook. Yet, he is still the one  saying things like he quite fancies her from time to time and offering her drinks.  He is the one  seeking a “token of gratitude” from Emma for saving her father’s life.  Yet, I still have hope that Hook can learn from the past and that when Neal returns to the picture, Hook will have enough respect and paternal love for Bae to keep his distance from Emma until she makes up her mind.

I have not yet see Emma seek out Hook.  She even flatly says at the start of the NL adventure, we don’t need to be friends, nor does she expect or want that.  So a few days later how are we supposed to believe she’s fallen deeply in love with him? How do we believe she has gotten over a relationship she could not get over when she thought the guy didn’t love her, now that she knows he actually did?  If she was stuck on Neal thinking he’d set her up, how much more ache is there to lose him when he basically risked his life for her? When she saw he stepped right up to fatherhood, and loves her son every bit as much as she does?

While the sneak peek seems to indicate that Emma initiates “the thing” with Hook (I sound like I’m eight), I think it is in a moment of adrenaline-fueled passion. We now know Hook is the one pointing to his lips, expecting a “show of gratitude” from Emma for saving Charming. Yet, Emma is at first reluctant and says her words of thanks should be enough. She initiates the heavy kiss in a way to give Hook what he wants, but I don’t for a moment think that Emma has just magically flipped a switch from episode 3×4 when she confessed she’s never stopped loving Neal to suddenly turn around and get over him. She believes Neal died no more than 1 or 2 days ago. All Emma has in NL is the past since there is no time there; she couldn’t possibly be moving on to her “destined” future with Hook. Nope, not buying it. Something much deeper is going on inside of Emma as  struggles to deal with her emotions of loss over Neal and Henry. Kissing Hook in a moment of triumph may be cathartic for Emma, especially since first kisses are often exhilarating. It’s all about emotional-release from feeling pain. Kissing releases endrophins, so it’s like a natural high.

I think Emma is about to start entering that phase where she tries to numb her pain because she cannot let these out-of-control emotions get in the way of getting Henry.  She’s tried rum.  She’s tried not talking.  Now she will be ready to try something else, just like Mary Margret did with Whale.  I don’t think Emma’s put her past with Neal behind, and is ready to open her heart to a new love, who’s earned her respect with patience, and selfless behavior.

Having just seen “the thing” and going off of Emma’s emotionally-laiden confession of love for Neal in 3×4, I agree that right now what Emma is seeking is solace in the arms of a man who subconsciously reminds her of Neal. She feels like any hope she had of a future with Neal died with him, and the only person who could begin to understand that pain is Hook, who lost Milha and Bae. Hook feels a connection to Neal, which in turn, connects him and Emma. Neal continues to be at the center of Hook and Emma’s interactions thus far, and I guess, will continue to be once they both realize Neal is actually alive.

"That’s how you know you’ve really got a home. When you leave it, there’s this feeling that you can’t shake. You just miss it." Neal Cassidy

[RumplesGirl]

Having now seen the second sneak peek with the thing I am going to spoil out most of this

Ok so context is everything. First off, this is a very personal thing for me, but I find Hook’s prompting abhorrent. She does not OWE you anything. I don’t care if you’re teasing or being flirtatious but trying to coerce a woman into physical contact with you is disgusting. If they wanted to make me care about Hook as a person they just set it back ten fold.

Second, she obviously did it prove a point. I will grant that it went on a big longer than it needed to prove a point. Also the ending line of “as you wish” for collecting firewood is VERY Princess Bride which disquiets me a bit. I would say Emma is affected in that she just made out with a very hot man but her walls never really came down and they went back up straight away.

"He was a lot of things to me" "The only conclusion was love"

[PriceofMagic]

Did anyone else get a Buffy/Spike feel from the CS kiss and how it came about?

All magic comes with a price!

Keeper of Felix

[kfchimera]

I had the same reaction, RG.

The ending note is sweet on Hook’s part, a shout out to Wesley but it seems out of place to me with how the conversation started off.  There is intensity there, but the start is more  aiming for “hot” then “romantic”.  It’s a tough line.  If we’d seen Lacey and Keith grappling in an alley  before we’d seen him asking for 5 minutes with Belle against her will back in the FTL flashback, people might have found that hot too.  Instead we were all sort of where’s the brain bleach, because Belle would NEVER with that guy least of all, and where’s her Rumple!   Emma of course is not sweet Belle.  We know she WOULD, and that she did, before she got to SB, because she’s had one-night stands.   She probably broke hearts too, and the question is, from her side, iis it emotional, or is it, like Regina with Graham.  Because Emma and Regina do have their parallels too.  Kissing someone feels good, and Emma’s no nun.  Hook is handsome, and it goes back to “fun in vegas.”   I will neither confirm nor deny having been in Vegas years before ever meeting my husband, and may or may not have had the opportunity to be in a similiar state of as Avril Lavgine sings, “what the H….”.   I guess they’re spoiling the whatever out of this kiss scene for ratings, but it feels very much a huge shift from the Emma who was choking back tears over missing Neal, until you get back to the stages of grief and the numbing /trying to feel something stage.   Guess we have to see if these two start acting in a less “physical” way and a more emotionally resonant way with each other.

“If I had a world of my own, everything would be nonsense. Nothing would be what it is, because everything would be what it isn't. And contrary wise, what is, it wouldn't be. And what it wouldn't be, it would. You see?” -- Lewis Carroll, Alice's Adventures in Wonderland & Through the Looking-Glass

[RumplesGirl]

The ending felt totally out of place to me as well. The kiss obviously affected Hook more than it did Emma. But this should come as no surprise. He’s the one who has been affected the entire time. She has yet to be overly affected by him. It wasn’t going for “this is the start of an epic life changing romance.” For me to ever really consider CS to be more than a passing fancy, they needed to sell me Hook. All season thus far they’ve been toning down his sexual comments, his references to his sex and more. And then this. This was like five steps back on the “get RG to like Hook” meter. I get that he’s a pirate but that’s really no excuse to try and force sexual contact from a person. The world is already full of this crap

"He was a lot of things to me" "The only conclusion was love"

[Author]

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