Emma + Baelfire = Swanfire

[Slurpeez]

RumplesGirl wrote: Ok so context is everything. First off, this is a very personal thing for me, but I find Hook’s prompting abhorrent. She does not OWE you anything. I don’t care if you’re teasing or being flirtatious but trying to coerce a woman into physical contact with you is disgusting. If they wanted to make me care about Hook as a person they just set it back ten fold.

I agree. While I think the kiss is full of intensity, I don’t find it at all romantic. And that isn’t just my SF bias speaking. Hook basically says Emma owes him for saving her father’s life and points to his lips. What he really wants from her is a kiss (and then some), which she gives him, but only after  protesting that her words of gratitude ought to be enough. One thing that has always bothered me about Hook, and which made me dislike him as a potential suitor for Emma, is the way he speaks and acts in a sexist manner. That previous scene in “Queen of Hearts” when Hook pined Emma on her back during their swordplay and said the next time he jabbed her with his sword, she’d feel it really bothered me. It was not flirty or fun. It was piggish at best and demeaning to women at worst. For every stride that Hook has made since 2×22, this scene sort of shows him falling back into that piggish pattern.

Second, she obviously did it prove a point. I will grant that it went on a big longer than it needed to prove a point. Also the ending line of “as you wish” for collecting firewood is VERY Princess Bride which disquiets me a bit. I would say Emma is affected in that she just made out with a very hot man but her walls never really came down and they went back up straight away.

 When Emma does kiss him, she really goes for it. It’s almost like she’s seeking some sort of solace from the world of pain she’s been in and also showing Hook a thing or two about kissing. It really reminds me of the kiss that Elizabeth Swan and Jack Sparrow shared in “Pirates of the Caribbean,” which was full of heat, but that’s all because we all knew Elizabeth really loved William Turner.

Price of Magic wrote: Did anyone else get a Buffy/Spike feel from the CS kiss and how it came about?

Since I’ve never actually watched an episode of Buffy, I have little to go on except for what you summarized for me in the chat. So, apparently Spike as a soulless vampire and Buffy first had sex when he was trying to kill and rape her? Errrr, I’m glad I never watched that. While Hook has joked about having “many a man’s wife” and clearly has the hots for Emma, I don’t think he would ever do something as dreadful as force Emma to have sex with him. But, as I wrote above, I didn’t find it the least bit romantic that Hook was trying to coerce Emma for a kiss by using the fact he’d just saved her father’s life to his advantage. That is not the way to Emma’s heart, in my opinion. So, while Emma may be using Hook for some sort of emotional release in a way that somewhat reflects how Buffy came to use Spike (again haven’t seen that show before), I don’t think Hook would actually harm Emma. The way he said, “as you wish” suggests his intentions towards her are the foundations of love in him. Perhaps he will be like Sydney Carton figure in the end and die for her though in a way that mirrors how Spike died for Buffy after she chose Angel (did I get that right?). Yet, seeing this is a show about hope and happy endings, I wish Hook could find happiness with someone who is not linked to Baelfire. I still think a certain fairy or a mermaid could make a pirate like Hook a very happy man.

[RumplesGirl]

*rubs head* The social media stuff has gone crazy so I’m going to clarify a few things I’ve said.

Did Emma kiss him? Yes. She is the acting agent here. But only after Hook repeatedly prompted with the idea of OWING him. You don’t get to that in my mind. I don’t care that she kissed him. He basically said that in payment for saving Charming he deserves something of a sexual nature. I’m not mad at Emma and I think she did act like she wanted. What I’m upset about his Hook’s disregard for her “thank you” and thinking that there needed to be more. It’s..uncomfortable. My complaint is with HOOK’S attitude that women he does favors for in turn need to do things for him. It’s hard to stomach. What if she had kept saying no? What if she had said “Hook, I’m serious. I’m not going to kiss you.” What then? I’m not bashing Emma. I’m saying that I don’t appreciate the way Hook engineered that kiss. He even switches how they refer to Charming. She called him David. He says “your father” bringing up the familial connection.

"He was a lot of things to me" "The only conclusion was love"

[Josephine]

Slurpeez, I think it’s just me and you in the Sydney Carton corner. 🙂 It’s a small section of fandom, but we do have our reasonings. I remember in the HP heydays saying Snape was going to end up like Sydney and being told no way. Hehe…see how that turned out! It’s not a fact of disliking a character or wanting him gone, I just think story wise, it would be a fantastic angle to go.

Keeper of Rumplestiltskin's and Neal's spears and war paint and crystal ball.

[kfchimera]

Slurpeez, I agree .  Also, just imagine Emma saying “Neal taught me that”    after she walks away.

“If I had a world of my own, everything would be nonsense. Nothing would be what it is, because everything would be what it isn't. And contrary wise, what is, it wouldn't be. And what it wouldn't be, it would. You see?” -- Lewis Carroll, Alice's Adventures in Wonderland & Through the Looking-Glass

[PriceofMagic]

Since I’ve never actually watched an episode of Buffy, I have little to go on except for what you summarized for me in the chat. So, apparently Spike as a soulless vampire and Buffy first had sex when he was trying to kill and rape her? Errrr, I’m glad I never watched that. While Hook has joked about having “many a man’s wife” and clearly has the hots for Emma, I don’t think he would ever do something as dreadful as force Emma to have sex with him. But, as I wrote above, I didn’t find it the least bit romantic that Hook was trying to coerce Emma for a kiss by using the fact he’d just saved her father’s life to his advantage. That is not the way to Emma’s heart, in my opinion. So, while Emma may be using Hook for some sort of emotional release in a way that somewhat reflects how Buffy came to use Spike (again haven’t seen that show before), I don’t think Hook would actually harm Emma. The way he said, “as you wish” suggests his intentions towards her are the foundations of love in him. Perhaps he will be like Sydney Carton figure in the end and die for her though in a way that mirrors how Spike died for Buffy after she chose Angel (did I get that right?). Yet, seeing this is a show about hope and happy endings, I wish Hook could find happiness with someone who is not linked to Baelfire. I still think a certain fairy or a mermaid could make a pirate like Hook a very happy man.

Spike and Buffy were together a whole season before he tried to rape her. Even he was horrified at what he tried to do to her which sent him on a quest for a soul. Buffy had been toying with Spike and his emotions all season, so it’s kind of not surprising that the one time she genuinely doesn’t want him around, he doesn’t get the message. Angel was always Buffy’s true love even though he was out of the picture, Spike accepted that at the end.

I think CaptainSwan works best as unresolved sexual tension. They have chemistry but to have them together may ruin that.

All magic comes with a price!

Keeper of Felix

[RumplesGirl]

Spike and Buffy were together a whole season before he tried to rape her. Even he was horrified at what he tried to do to her which sent him on a quest for a soul. Buffy had been toying with Spike and his emotions all season, so it’s kind of not surprising that the one time she genuinely doesn’t want him around, he doesn’t get the message. Angel was always Buffy’s true love even though he was out of the picture, Spike accepted that at the end.

I don’t want to do a whole Buffy diatribe cause this isn’t the Buffy show. I was Spuffy and always will be. But the idea that “he didn’t get the message” is NOT an excuse under any circumstances for rape. Buffy was crying and kicking and screaming and pleading with him and his response was “I’m going to make you feel it” and yes Buffy did HORRIBLE things to him but nothing justifies what he tried to do. And yes it did send him on a quest to find his soul and then his horror grew. I just think…we need to be careful about excusing rape. Ever. As in there is no excuse.

(ok Buffy diatribe over)

I don’t think Hook will die and I don’t want him to. I just think that when it comes to Emma, when there is no one else around, he lets that “pirate” nature come out and it’s disquieting for me.

"He was a lot of things to me" "The only conclusion was love"

[Slurpeez]

I don’t think Hook will die and I don’t want him to.

For the record, neither do I think it’s likely to happen (Hook’s too popular), nor would I ever wish it. What I wish is for Hook not to emotionally coerce women into kissing him nor to speak to them like he’s entitled. I want him to learn from his past and not repeat what he did with Milha with Emma, thereby devastating Neal. I want to see real and lasting character growth. Then I want to see the fruits of that growth in the form of a happy ending for Hook and some other lucky lady who isn’t linked to Baelfire.

I just think that when it comes to Emma, when there is no one else around, he lets that “pirate” nature come out and it’s disquieting for me.

What’s the saying? “You can take the man out of the pirate costume, but you can’t take the pirate out of the man?” or some variation there of. Hook still IS a pirate, and he isn’t going to stop being one just because he fancies Emma and feels badly about losing Bae to death. While I think a pirate CAN be a hero, that doesn’t make him into a Prince Charming. In the promo for 3×5, Prince Charming even holds a sword to Hook’s neck and threatens him to stay away from his daughter. This means that Charming, though indebted to Hook for saving his life, does NOT like all the attention Hook is paying Emma. I wonder if Charming even overhears Hook prompting Emma for a kiss using Charming’s life as leverage?! It would explain Charming’s overprotective daddy mode. *Daddy Charming feels* 

"That’s how you know you’ve really got a home. When you leave it, there’s this feeling that you can’t shake. You just miss it." Neal Cassidy

[PriceofMagic]

I don’t want to do a whole Buffy diatribe cause this isn’t the Buffy show. I was Spuffy and always will be. But the idea that “he didn’t get the message” is NOT an excuse under any circumstances for rape. Buffy was crying and kicking and screaming and pleading with him and his response was “I’m going to make you feel it” and yes Buffy did HORRIBLE things to him but nothing justifies what he tried to do. And yes it did send him on a quest to find his soul and then his horror grew. I just think…we need to be careful about excusing rape. Ever. As in there is no excuse.

(ok Buffy diatribe over)

I don’t think Hook will die and I don’t want him to. I just think that when it comes to Emma, when there is no one else around, he lets that “pirate” nature come out and it’s disquieting for me.

I wasn’t trying to excuse the Spuffy attempted rape at all, it made for very uncomfortable viewing (Backs away from the Buffy subject)

Once again I find my loyalties in the CaptainSwanFire triangle shifting. I am now leaning towards SwanFire. They won’t kill off Hook, I’m sure about that. I wonder what prompts Hook to go from how he has been behaving in Neverland to what we saw in the sneak peek. The sensitive Hook has made Emma see him in a new light so why bring back the suggestive Hook?

All magic comes with a price!

Keeper of Felix

[Slurpeez]

Once again I find my loyalties in the CaptainSwanFire triangle shifting. I am now leaning towards SwanFire. They won’t kill off Hook, I’m sure about that. I wonder what prompts Hook to go from how he has been behaving in Neverland to what we saw in the sneak peek. The sensitive Hook has made Emma see him in a new light so why bring back the suggestive Hook?

I think we must consult Colin O’Donoghue himself to discover the answer to that question. He gave a recent interview which explains our would-be pirate anti-hero is one conflicted guy:

We’ve seen a softer side to Hook so far in season 3. Will that continue?

O’Donoghue: Yeah. What you see is a man who is sort of struggling with — he’s had 300 odd years of living with hatred and all that kind of stuff. Now, he’s desperately trying to figure out if he wants to let go of that or not. It’s an incredibly difficult thing to do when that’s the only driving force that’s you’ve had for so long.

So, you see a man who’s having a massive internal struggle and I definitely think there’s a side of him that desperately wants to do the right thing, you know, but within the confines of being Captain Hook and a pirate and being quite selfish. That’s kinda where he’s at at the minute.

I think that while Hook wants to reform, he struggles between looking out for himself, so as not to get hurt, and doing the honorable thing. So far in NL, we’ve seen him “be a part of something” by helping Emma find her son. Apparently, he also acts the hero and helps save Emma’s father. Yet, he still is a pirate and he still struggles with selfishess, which is why he says to Emma:

Hook: Well, perhaps gratitude is in order now.
Emma: Yeah, that’s what the “thank you” was for.
Hook: Hm, is that all your father’s life is worth to you?

Even though Hook supposedly just did a selfless thing by saving Charming, he turns right around and uses that to his own advantage to get what he wants: a kiss from Emma.

"That’s how you know you’ve really got a home. When you leave it, there’s this feeling that you can’t shake. You just miss it." Neal Cassidy

[RumplesGirl]

The sensitive Hook has made Emma see him in a new light so why bring back the suggestive Hook?

Yes for me this is a huge problem. It feels like he just took many steps backwards on the road to redemption or at least moving from full fledged villain to anti-hero but I think Colin is right: Hook is selfish (all our villains are) and he struggles inwardly about what is “right.” But this moment with the thing is just too much for me. While I was on my way to warming up to him, this put a stopper in it.

"He was a lot of things to me" "The only conclusion was love"

[Author]

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