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Welcome lecygne! Thanks for sharing your perspective.
If a second chance and a happy ending happens? Huge party, but only in this thread. That’s sort of one of the most frustrating things here, that for weeks on weeks, we sort of have this extra stress with not knowing where Neal is. It feels like the stakes are somehow higher for SF /Neal fans than others. Yet if our best-case scenario happens, then suddenly the stakes are even, its not that the stakes are lowered all the way. On the one hand, I did feel the story needed more danger, but its like going from 0 to 180 here. BF should have stayed dead. While I adore Keegan for her funny twitter, and heart in attending Fan conventions, the BF sneaky fairy is a plot device in a costume monstrosity. That was acceptable “stakes” and shocking, and they ruined it with a pop up recovery, that screamed nothing more loudly than “hah we can’t get rid of our plot device crutch, who are we kidding”. So here we are, the heat turned all the way up.
I can’t even look forward to a reunion as we did in S3A. Even worse with the doom spoiler and filming reports, are the people on twitter/tumblr saying they already know and being openly excited for the death. Even here, people are mainly polite, but I see a few people constantly implying “after Sunday…” It’s not an intentional thing to make us feel worse, but they honestly believe the speculations so its just how they think, that first off, anything trollish is somehow SF fans (hello there’s anti-shippers, pure trolls, and people who like other ships out there too). Some might be genuinely sad for those of us who like Neal, even if they don’t like him–but for me, and possibly for Phee and some others, we like Hook! We like him in a different way than others, and have a different read on his character, and I had different hopes for how they’d write him. So I don’t see total happy dances in my future no matter who. On hearing this death spoiler, my reaction versus other fans reminded me of that scene of August saying to Neal about the jail “It’s good” and Neal saying “How’s it good?”. If I could, I’d manipulate a gifset with August saying that, with “most online OUAT” fans arrow pointing to him, and another arrow pointing to Neal and saying “Neal fans”. This isn’t about just a ship, it should be about fans of the characters and the show. A death to resolve a love triangle is the worst writing trope. Even if its neither of these two, then who? The only one I could stand is a long-con fast one of an already forgotten and side-lined character or some word play by A&E to refer to a kid actor like Bailee or Dylan. If its about ships, I’d prefer over death, that Neal realize his happy ending is with just a platonic friendship/co-parent with Emma than DIE for shock value and to clear the way for Hook. I’d prefer Hook sail off for adventure, perhaps a bit wiser, realizing romantic love is not the only thing worth changing for in this life, than die for romantic love, when there’s other relationships worth having in life.
I do love the love story that SF could be, and while I’m not keen on CS at this point, what bothers me I suppose is the way themes of loves other than romantic get so downplayed by fans and possibly the writers if the fans are right.
Not SF, but as this is a safe place to put an opinion about Hook without upsetting those who do view solely in a romantic light, I need to rant a little bit about the undervaluing of Hook as a full character.
He once wanted to claim Neal as a friend, DOES claim him so–and fans claim Charming as his friend for him though Hook as a character never did–and how has he treated either of them? In FTL we saw, he ditches them for a return to pirate priorities because neither of them are useful now for winning Emma. Why do the writers keep showing negative things about Hook (the scene with Tink, the scene in FTL) for this “he left, but he came back!” type surprise? It works once as a reversal of character, but after that? It makes Hook look like he’s putting on a show of good behavior, not sincerely a less selfish person now. Tink shows concern for Hook, but does he show any for her? Not really. Forget the CaptainFairy ship–how about a real friendship that goes two ways? Everything is about his quest for Emma, and that makes him less well-rounded as a character.
Fans try to say Hook is putting a show of bad behavior, that he went looking for Emma the whole time. Maybe. That he gave his ship, his home to cross worlds. Maybe. Even his romantic line, of being glad Emma’s heart is broken is something I wouldn’t think quite so bad (he did say don’t take it the wrong way), if we only thought of romantic loves. It would have worked better if he’d said “I still have a chance ” rather than knowing her heart works. The reason it bothered me is that Emma’s core is her motherly love for Henry. Hello Hook, shouldn’t you know Emma’s heart works because you know, you simple minded pirate, she loves her son? Really, truly, deeply loves her son? A quality, mind you, that the last woman he devoted himself to, did not possess? I’m glad he picked a better person to court this time, but if that’s the extent of his change, that the beautiful woman he loves this time just happens to have better morals, that its not part of his attraction to her, then its all outside of his character. It’s not HIS change. He loves Emma because –why? What qualities about her attract him?
In terms of what we’ve seen him say or how he acts, he likes that she’s up for a fight, that she’s never lost (he thinks), that’s she physically beautiful, that she is a challenge. Her vulnerability and heartache, her loss of hope are things that he connects with in her. It’s not that I think he wants her miserable as he is, but he feels she understands that and it sets up a connection. They do both have that hard knocks life behind them.
Still, what isn’t on that list? Her love for her son. Her unwillingness to see others suffer needlessly (not her strong suit, as she’s still working on this hero destiny thing, but pregnant women and orphans inspire her a little). Her love for her parents and community.
If Emma were more selfish, more weighed down by motherhood, perhaps she’d just run off with Hook and how would he have grown at all? If he fell for Emma more slowly, because of her devotion to Henry, then was visibly more conflicted about Neal being alive, I would have preferred the writing. Let it be Emma that drove towards Hook, and Hook staving her off, because he has changed and loves his friend Neal. They didn’t do that. It’s totally 100% Hook trying to impress her, trying to win her, and far as his friend Neal? The writing is very weak.
So from a ship perspective, for CSers, I can see why they find it romantic that Hook is putting himself at risk in NL, and he managed somehow to cross worlds, bring her back to her family. Yet he doesn’t want her to stay with them, since he doesn’t seem all that respectful of them. He didn’t stay with them in FTL, to see them settled before he went off. You can say his grief overwhelmed him but isn’t that where we come in on the villain path? The ability to rise above your sadness, to think of others is what makes one heroic.
So I bring this back to the ambiguity of the writing, the editing. Is Hook’s attitude that he is a less selfish person now or is it really he just wants Emma, a swap of how to get his Happy Ending from “avenge Milah then die” to “move on with Emma!”.
The writers are interested in exploring that dynamic between Hook and Emma, so explore it they have, but it feels to me out of joint with Emma’s connections to other people she cares about. It feels odd that Hook doesn’t seem to care much about anyone else either for their own sakes, particularly when it comes to Neal and Henry. He would be a more full character if they established he cares and has formed a friendship of sorts with these others but I feel they keep hinting he has not because of course, they keep wanting to show he’s a pirate, so the only one he shows concern about is Emma.
Ok Rant over for now…I will try to get back to some SF shippy thoughts, happy things about what I like about Neal and Emma’s journey, rather than complaining about the lack of Captainfire and such.
[adrotate group="5"]“If I had a world of my own, everything would be nonsense. Nothing would be what it is, because everything would be what it isn't. And contrary wise, what is, it wouldn't be. And what it wouldn't be, it would. You see?” -- Lewis Carroll, Alice's Adventures in Wonderland & Through the Looking-Glass
Welcome, lecygne!
Your views as someone who was a casual, non-shipping viewer don’t surprise me at all. This show is A&E’s own original fairytale, and their own original characters are at the centre of it, and have always been the intended endgame. Whatever twists and turns the story takes along the way, I really do believe that the story of Emma, Neal and Henry will have a happy ending, because that’s why everyone loves fairytales, for the “happily ever after”.Yup. When I introduced my mom to the show before S3A started I asked her at the end of our rewatch “so do you want Emma with Hook or Neal?” Her response? “Why would she ever be with Hook?”
The more I watch of their stuff the more I am mystified by it. Hook has his moments, but I am noticing more and more that when it comes to Emma, Hook oscillates between skeevy and pathetic. He needs to find himself a new-Milah…
I ADORE the “new fairy tale” aspect. It’s super awesome!
That’s pretty funny. I don’t remember having that reaction – it seemed so odd to us, “Who is this random dude, why is he getting a postcard from SB? And then he’s not seen any more? Guess we’ll hear from him more later…” We didn’t even connect the “Broken” with the curse LMAO. Then again NYC is very much a “home” for me; another constant between all ships as well as important in my real life so I tend to take it so for granted and not see it as out of place. LOL!
I remain intruiged by that suit… we were so quick to hear what Emma’s RL job was, I am sure there is a purpose to waiting to hear about Neal’s…
*flails at accuracy* YES. That’s why they randomly decide to “kill” the Blue Fairy–to prevent Emma one more time from being able to sit down and talk to Neal and thus let them start to heal and come back together.
Yes! It’s obstacle after obstacle after obstacle… at this point, it is almost making me wish the WW would just lock the two of them up in a cage somewhere for a couple of days. At least then they could have some good conversation!!
It’s possible it’s your browser. Are you using a tablet or phone?
It’s a Dell running XP posting via Chrome. I did make one post (I think) from my iPhone 4S but the formatting seems to be a board thing – the span tags etc that I see in a lot of posts, especially ones involving quoting. I think it’s just a board quirk but I like things to look pretty so it drives me nuts… I just have to edit 57 times until I get random tags out of my posts 😉
Cause this story needs some mending & a better happy ending...
(To go tangential, I have a theory that part of the reason N&E rarely have the opportunity to have good meaty conversations is that it was necessary to drag their story out. If you actually let them have a good conversation, their story would be resolved very very quickly, because the only thing keeping them apart is all of the unresolved junk from the last decade. But if they are constantly being torn apart or kept on an adventure, they can delay them resolving things through conversation. I am sure that I am not the first SF fan to state that, but as I am watching through bits and pieces of their story, it is occurring to me how little time they have had to just talk. Since the discussion on the beach and the ILY as he fell through the portal, they just haven’t had a chance to resolve it. It has to be written that way, because once they do, there will be no more triangle…)
PREACH! This paragraph gets ALL the cookies!
It’s basic storytelling that you keep the couple apart so they can’t resolve their stuff, because the story is in the angst and drama of them having stuff unresolved. Like RG mentioned, Blue’s “death” was basically just a plot contrivance to assure that Emma and Neal wouldn’t have the chance to chat at the Diner. The more the writers drop roadblocks in their way, preventing those quiet moments from happening, the more it convinces me that they’re eventually gonna get it together.
And if I might point out a contrast while we’re on the topic, Emma and Hook are hanging out plenty lately, and having no deep and meaningful discussions even though they have ample opportunity…because they simply have nothing deep and meaningful to discuss from Emma’s POV.
I wondered if it was the watch box? Not sure how she would have gotten it if it is – perhaps Neal left it in the car or…?
To my knowledge it has never been discussed but now I’m really interested….
Some might be genuinely sad for those of us who like Neal, even if they don’t like him–but for me, and possibly for Phee and some others, we like Hook! We like him in a different way than others, and have a different read on his character, and I had different hopes for how they’d write him
Same!!
I *like* Hook as the snarky sarcastic pirate with hilarious one liners. I LOVED him in 312 and 313 when he wasn’t just making moon eyes at Emma but was given something to do that felt more ‘Hook”
Hello Hook, shouldn’t you know Emma’s heart works because you know, you simple minded pirate, she loves her son? Really, truly, deeply loves her son? A quality, mind you, that the last woman he devoted himself to, did not possess?
Well this was a fantastic point and line.
He loves Emma because –why? What qualities about her attract him?
Because when they meet she pulls a sword on him and then they fight a giant. He sees her as a fellow pirate–like Milah. But you’re right in what you said above, the big difference between Milah and Emma is Emma’s motherly love toward Henry.
"He was a lot of things to me" "The only conclusion was love"Given that she appears to only have about three boxes of stuff – and we can see the baby blanket behind her, the few things she keeps are pretty important to her, so obviously this box has some type of meaning. I wondered if it was the watch box? Not sure how she would have gotten it if it is – perhaps Neal left it in the car or…?
Hmmm, I just went to look up some Tallahassee screencaps and unfortunately we don’t really get a good look at the outside of it. It does look to be about the same size as the box Emma has though, so I reckon there’s a chance you could be onto something.
Given that she appears to only have about three boxes of stuff – and we can see the baby blanket behind her, the few things she keeps are pretty important to her, so obviously this box has some type of meaning. I wondered if it was the watch box? Not sure how she would have gotten it if it is – perhaps Neal left it in the car or…?
Hmmm, I just went to look up some Tallahassee screencaps and unfortunately we don’t really get a good look at the outside of it. It does look to be about the same size as the box Emma has though, so I reckon there’s a chance you could be onto something.
Until proven otherwise, headcanon: accepted
"He was a lot of things to me" "The only conclusion was love"For the casual viewer, who has been telegraphed SF over and over and over again, CS tries too hard. Heck, I even get SQ feels from time to time. Nothing but eye rolls for CS.
However, all this said, I didn’t realize I was truly shipping SF until the spoiler of doom. After all in my little world, it wasn’t shipping: it was plain fact. SF = end game. No other options. The love triangle was ridiculous and contrived. But now? I was suddenly distraught. How could this be?!!
To me Neal appears to be tailored perfectly for Emma, he’s her heart song, her counterpart. They have enough similarities and differences to make them last three life times!!!! JMO said Emma’s time up with Neal up to the time he was force to leave was wonderful. Neal and Emma loved each other, took care of each other, and were lights to each other in a dark lonely world. Yes there is hurt but there is also love. They are such a modern fairytale.
I’m with you since the summer of 2013 when I smelt the stench of love triangle I knew I was going to hate it. I loathe the love triangle trope with a passion and I really loathe this one.
I agree with you I think CS is trying to hard and it goes down in the cliché bad guy-good girl love interest trope that is been done the death. It just doesn’t pull at my heart strings like Emma and Neal does, because there is such a deeper story with them, and its just so raw, tangible, and relatable. They just make you root for those crazy kids to get their happy endings.
To our new ship mates welcome to the SF haven, a home away from home! All weary travelers are welcome into our cozy yellow bug, its very much like the Tardis, bigger on the inside!
"I will be kind but I will speak my mind."
A pretty thing.
x"That’s how you know you’ve really got a home. When you leave it, there’s this feeling that you can’t shake. You just miss it." Neal Cassidy
The more I watch of their stuff the more I am mystified by it. Hook has his moments, but I am noticing more and more that when it comes to Emma, Hook oscillates between skeevy and pathetic. He needs to find himself a new-Milah…
I think he thinks Emma is a new Milah, right? I was really turned off in ep. 312 (?) when he answered Emma’s question on why he came back with “For you Emma.” He didn’t say “for you and Henry”. Let’s not forget he’s into the hott moms but not into their kids. Kids cramp the adventurous lifestyle. And God forbid the mom should up and die and leave him feeling “responsible”…
Some might be genuinely sad for those of us who like Neal, even if they don’t like him–but for me, and possibly for Phee and some others, we like Hook! We like him in a different way than others, and have a different read on his character, and I had different hopes for how they’d write him. So I don’t see total happy dances in my future no matter who.
Agree. I like Hook. A lot. I’m glad they’ve kept him around as opposed to banishing him to the little room where they keep all the other discarded characters, but they need to give him something legit to do other than make inappropriate passes at Emma and stick his boot in his mouth around her family. I want him to redeem himself, find his happy ending. This is not something that happens in a half-season arc.
However, as I believe others have pointed out, Hook’s redemption must also involve Neal. He cannot be a father figure to Henry before admitting/regretting that he failed Bae. This would line up with the theme chez Snowing/Rumple/Neal/Emma all struggling with their own feelings of failure as a parent.
It’s a Dell running XP posting via Chrome. I did make one post (I think) from my iPhone 4S but the formatting seems to be a board thing – the span tags etc that I see in a lot of posts, especially ones involving quoting. I think it’s just a board quirk but I like things to look pretty so it drives me nuts… I just have to edit 57 times until I get random tags out of my posts
Are you using the Text editor or the visual editor? I had trouble w/my first post last night, but it seems to have fixed it by clicking the text tab and entering my tagging there.
kfchimera –
Great post. I will admit that I have never given that much thought to Hook’s character; two weeks ago I was just watching OUAT as my favorite show and not overanalyzing too much but as I go back and inspect, I think you have some excellent points. If he is attracted to Emma since he sees her as the adventuring type – mistaking her willingness to fight when necessary (particularly fighting for her child, which is pretty much all he’s seen her do) as WANTING to fight – then it makes sense. It unfortunately means that he’s missed some introspection as to who Emma really is – calm, quiet city life in a stable Home with her kiddo. She doesn’t get off by climbing bean stalks or traipsing around Neverland, those are necessary evils on the road to the home she so craves. He seems willing to parent Henry – much like he was willing to parent Baelfire – but he is not craving to parent Henry, the way not only Emma but both Neal and Regina are. He happens to come with the package, that’s cool – and I do give him props for that – but he’s off to rescue “Emma,” not “Emma&Henry.”
I like what Hook brings to the show. I love his one-liners, they are part of what makes it so enjoyable to watch. But unfortunately I think it’s rather undeniable that he has not properly integrated into the gang; for all of the connections that he SHOULD have, they all feel superficial. He was part of the Neverland gang, but there was always that distance, and it remains now. He’s attached to Emma. He doesn’t really have solid relationships with the other characters, despite the fact that he should.
Hmmm, I just went to look up some Tallahassee screencaps and unfortunately we don’t really get a good look at the outside of it. It does look to be about the same size as the box Emma has though, so I reckon there’s a chance you could be onto something.
Nope, I pulled out Tallahassee when I did the caps above and the best look we get at it is of an edge. Like I said, the one edge we can see (very very briefly and slightly blurry) appears to be plain wood without the linear design – but it’s possible that a) its a different edge of the box (ie, Neal has the hinge towards him and we see the open edge, while Emma is holding the open edge and the design is only on the side of the box with the hinge) or there was a prop error and they’ve edited it such that it’s impossible to see the box. I think a prop error is on the outside edge of probability given the attention to detail during the show but since we just can’t see the box well enough to tell I think it’s a possibility.
Cause this story needs some mending & a better happy ending...
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