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It isn’t enough about Henry? OK, fine by me. 🙂
Emma made the trip to *herself* in the second half of the season. She can’t be defined as a mother/savior/ independent kick butt warrior until she defines and accepts herself as a woman. She dealt with bitterness, anger, disgust, sadness, doubt, grief, fear, failure, loss, impotency/weakness, denial, and finally, realization.
And she never ignored Henry or his safety in the process of finding herself. He was surrounded by family and caring adults every moment. Especially his mother. And this was her journey and her story, this time. And about time.
This was Emma’s season to find herself and recognize exactly WHO she was…her mother’s daughter, her son’s mother, her father’s daughter, her soul’s magic, her partner’s lover, fate’s survivor, the total package finally combining all of that to stop her from once again running away from who she was…and who she was capable of being. If it took walking through ten thousand miles of woods, and three hundred years, so be it. She finally let her heart mold with her brain. Good. She will handle all those roles much better now that she loves herself and accepts herself for who she truly is.
This was about Emma, creating a relationship with EMMA.
In regard to the dance…
Sometimes, you just have to wear a gorgeous dress, smile adoringly and simply enjoy being held in the arms of someone who loves you and take the joyous whirl. Just because it feels so darned good.
🙂
[adrotate group="5"]***Always in search of a good flock***
@RGF – I have to agree 100% with your post. I’m not going to speak for people 5-10 or so years older/younger because here in the US, at least, ‘times change’ and it seems like lightning speed. But for our age group, I do think your description of what is/was expected of us, what we grew up understanding, and what ended up being our reality is spot on.
@RG – I see where you’re coming from, and I’m thankful for the clarification in regard to Hook in the EF. I was thinking about it after my last post and you put into words what I was thinking, but better. No, Emma doesn’t need Hook in the EF. She doesn’t need anyone – except Henry – which is at times a good and a bad character trait. But I don’t think it was the intention of the writers or actors to suggest Hook was in the EF because Emma couldn’t handle herself, it was simply a way of showing that as someone who loves Emma, Hook wasn’t going to let her be alone goodness knows where/when. Which I think is an essential human trait – how many of us wouldn’t go to the ends of the earth for the people we love? That’s just what love is. Just like when Snow jumped in after Emma in S2, and Charming intended to do but for the portal closing.
RE: Henry – I get what you’re saying. But I think the only reason there wasn’t more emphasis on Henry was because we know Emma genuinely loves Henry and would never leave Henry, would do anything for Henry, etc. We don’t need to rehash that. The purpose of 3×21 & 3/22 was to get Emma to that same place with her parents – hence, her running to them when she returned. Realistic? Maybe, maybe not. It’s a really hard place to put yourself in, time travel and magic and seeing your parents before you were born and whatnot – but yeah, if I had just had an experience that made me realize how much I love and respect and don’t want to lose X, then X is the first person I’d run to, and my child second. Because X needs to know this. I think Henry would’ve understood that and would be happy Emma finally realized this love for her parents as well.
I disagree and so does JMo. And this IS NOT a “I hate CaptainSwan and Emma for kissing Hook” discussion. Like I said at the beginning, this has nothing to do with CaptainSwan. It has to do with the fact that Emma went two hours on our screen without mentioning Henry, without really being (for me) the Savior, the two things that are integral to her character. The fact that when she gets back to SB, and doesn’t take a moment to hug her child–her entire reason for being, one of the first things we ever learn about her–is nuts. I’m glad she had that moment with Snow and Charming, but Henry is Emma’s home even more than Snow and Charming. For Henry to be so shoved to the side was absurd.
Nobody said it was that sort of discussion, I don’t think CaptainSwan has been brought up at all in that context in this discussion. Just because we didn’t see an Emma/Henry hug doesn’t mean one didn’t happen. A lot of stuff happens off screen unfortunately (such as Belle reuniting with her father) which is a flaw of the show, but Henry wasn’t the focus of the scene, Emma recognising Snowing as her parents and home was. Just because Emma doesn’t mention Henry in the EF isn’t absurd for the fact that Emma is busy trying to correct history which will in turn ensure Henry stays in existence. I’m glad we didn’t have to hear Emma whining about Henry for the reason that there was no reason why Henry needed to be mentioned in the EF, Henry had no significance on the EF events.
As far as JMo goes: when asked on Twitter if Emma’s time in NYC would change Emma, JMo responded with a yes, it makes Emma softer and more questioning. That means her personality changes.
I disagree. A personality change is where Emma would go from the person she is to someone she isn’t. For example, she becomes a flaky girly-girl who only cares for pretty clothes and make up and only cares about what men think of her. That would be a personality change. NYC has changed Emma but only in the sense that she’s grown. She’s still independent, she’s still Emma.
What EXACTLY did Emma do this season? They want Regina to be the hero–fine fine fine. But what did Emma do at all besides take long walks in the woods with the various men in her life–Hook, Charming, Neal?
312 she got her memories back so I can’t find fault in her not being Emma-like in that one
313 she was on a stake out, questioning people and focusing on Henry’s life. Total Emma
314..she walked in the woods with Hook and then waved a gun around a bit.
315..she walked in the woods with Neal
316..she declared that she was just SUPER ANGRY! and then was called am ameture and ended up doing nothing
317..she practiced magic and decided that she could TOTES MAKE IT WAY OF LIFE!!!
318…she poofs a lot of things
319…she waves a gun around, wants to go back to NYC, and tells Henry Operation Cobra never ended
320…”I need to go back to NYC.” Oh and she takes another long walk in the woods with Hook
321/322…one epically long walk after breaking history. No mention of Henry, and she “saves the day” only after she broke it.
I do agree Emma didn’t do as much as she should’ve/could’ve in 3B but I think that was more to showcase Regina’s reformation. Regina shouldn’t have been able to use light magic especially without her heart because 1) It makes Emma look like a spare. Who needs Emma when Regina can do it just fine? and 2) It made it look like Regina was better off WITHOUT her heart.
Emma was doing perfectly fine raising Henry and being a sheriff/Savior/Mother before S3B. I don’t care if she wants a relationship with Hook. Go, have a relationship! Have kissy time! But it’s that everything else got sidetracked–including her mother and savior roles in order for this relationship to happen. If Emma lets Henry be sidelined in her life, then she’s not Emma Swan.
Emma won’t let Henry be sidelined in her life, but she needs to have a life outside of Henry. Emma is a character in her own right, not just an extension of Henry. Also if Henry’s off at Regina’s or wherever, Emma needs something to do. Being a mother is only part of Emma’s character, it’s not the sum of it.
All magic comes with a price!
Keeper of FelixI’m bowing out for a bit but this is the only thing I’ll say.
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PLEASE make sure you not breaking the rules of this forum by using language that is not appropriate. I know sometimes it slips in, but it’s not allowed here.
"He was a lot of things to me" "The only conclusion was love"I guess I don’t see Emma NOT interacting with Henry for an episode or two as that big of a deal. Probably because my son is the same age as Henry and I know what 12 year old boys are like – you really don’t spend a lot of time staring lovingly at each other. You are happy when you get a grunt and a short but informative sentence of how their day is going. I love my son to pieces but at his age he has his interests and I end up being the chauffeur to get him back and forth to said interests – that is the how I talk to him, he is held captive in the car and has no choice to listen and grunt responses when I demand them in return.
Plus, as a woman I also have my own interests not to mention that I am married so I also spend time alone with my husband. My husband and I do actually go away on our own vacations (and so do all the other happily married couples we know). When we are on those vacations our rule is that we focus on US, not kids. We don’t talk about kids, about household stuff, parenting, etc. It is US time. Doesn’t mean I don’t love my son – does mean my entire world does not revolve around his existence. He will grow up a much healthier person because of that, but I digress.
Emma did talk about Henry in the EF. When she told Killy that SB is her home she talked about how Henry brought her to SB to bring her home not to break a curse. And they did already touch upon the implications of a Henry not being born if Emma wasn’t born back in
Regina’s house when they first discovered what Zelena was up to.I just think the whole finale was about Emma figuring out that SB and the people she loves are her home, and the way she did that was to go back and LIVE out the Fairy Tales herself instead of just reading them in a book. So knew everyone’s SB side and had HEARD of their fairy tale character sides but until she actually experienced them in the EF and understood that they were still people JUST LIKE HER who had the same kinds of feelings and challenges and experiences – she was NEVER going to feel that she belonged with them. So the focus HAD to be on her parents and it had to parallel something that she was currently experiencing. Snowing didn’t have a child yet so Henry really didn’t play a role in the fairy tale storyline that was needed to help Emma – there wasn’t a parallel there. I thought it was also meant to give closure to Emma finally accepting her parents for who they really are . . . her parents. As much as this life might not have been one that Emma would have ever imagined for herself – it IS actually HER life, she DOES have parents who love her and she finally realized that she loves them.
I honestly think they have established that Emma loves Henry and vice versa, and that Regina loves Henry and vice versa. I think the next thing that happens with Henry will be him getting his own arc of some kind. Keep in mind a lot of what they can do with Henry is limited by Jared’s age. He can only work so many hours a day and can only work between certain hours of the day due to his young age. Unfortunately a lot of OUaT is filmed late at night or very early in the morning, outside of when he can film. So he just isn’t able to be on the set all the time.
I don’t think the show is perfect either. I found Snowing naming the baby Neal . . . awkward, but only until I saw the look on Rumple’s face and then I thought it was a sweet gesture to HIM and something that made sense from Snow’s perspective. Knowing how Snow is about family I think she would be concerned that Rumple would feel cut off from the rest of his “family” after Bae died and it seemed like them naming the baby Neal was a way for them to, not only honor him, but also reach out to Rumple and let him know that they still very much consider him a part of their family. Yet . . . still it will be awkward every time they refer to Neal now.
As long as we don’t have Rumple making out with any other older and/or deeply disturbed or psychotic women on the show for at least a season, I can deal with just about anything though.
Thanks @rumplegoldfan for your great insights and thoughts. And, I promise, I will try not to veer too deep into feminist theories and discussions, to keep things close to the show.
Nevertheless…
Third wave feminism with its turning to the idea, that we can have it all, that equality is something that can be individually achieved, much based on the assumption that norms and laws in society are mostly making it possible by now, so that it’s now about women making a choice, has been in my view always falling short. It meant ignoring or underestimating that restraining gender images and norms are still very much ingrained in the structures even of modern, Western societies, whatever laws and grand speeches say (besides ignoring that choice was at best only true for a privileged minority of mostly white women). For example women in higher working positions are still questioned in their femaleness, a woman deciding for career and against children is pitied or hated, while a man doing so is more judged as making sacrifice for society (or the company). Most of the time though men don’t have to make a choice against family, they can trust a wife to have their back in that matter. That is not the same for women, even if they have men supporting them, they are still seen as doing something exceptional for women, and their men staying at home and doing the family work struggle to be still seen as full men.
It was always wrong to understand it as appeal to be all independent of men, do it all yourself, or even feel guilty about being nicely courted. Golly, no. There is nothing wrong in letting the man pay dinner, only if it is taken as an obligation and not coming as a true gesture of appreciation or generosity. There is nothing wrong if a man opens the door, but he shouldn’t do it because I am a woman, but because it is a nice gesture or might be even helpful. And it is okay when personal, private relationships are more important for someone, but that it regardless gender. When I am in love with a person that person is important, and yes, it can happen it’s a man. I love when he spoils me but as much I love to spoil him. It’s great when he takes care of things for me as long as he asks, as long he doesn’t take it as his prerogative to take care of all of my things unasked for and expect me to be just the nice decoration of his living room and kitchen. When I am in love with a woman though it is the very same, there is no difference (yes, I am bisexual).
Was there no need for Killian/Hook to be in the past EF with Emma? There was no need. Did it make Emma a damsel in distress and hamper her development as strong woman? Neither.
You’re right, life changes people, constantly, as I see it we change every day, with every new thought and interaction with people, much of it is subtle, has no (immediately) visible effect. Sometimes there are bigger changes, but some people never seem to change much ever. But as it happens in life so of course change should happen for fictional characters.
The question raised though is more about, how is change shown, what are reasons, agents of change? We should be able to identify with or understand characters, and we should go on their journey with them, but to me that doesn’t mean it has to reflect the journey we usually make in our reality, it can as well be a play with different options, alternatives. Fiction can help us to reflect our reality, test ideas we have how to do things differently or discover new ideas.
When people say, a fictional character acted out of character it means, what the person does, reacts is not plausible to them. Now the sweetest, loveliest, friendliest person on earth might suddenly turn around and slap a person – that might be not out of character (OOC). That people act differently than we expect them is not per se OOC, there might be reasons. But task for a storyteller is to make it plausible. If people think, a character is OOC that can be either a problem of their perception or the writer failed, might not even have tried to make it plausible, or it can be a mix of both.
This was about Emma, creating a relationship with EMMA.
Was it? Maybe it was meant to be that, but it seems to me that some of the audience got lost on the way, didn’t really made that journey with Emma to feel more comfortable with herself, with accepting that she is part of a strange fairy tale world, savior and all package. But why did they have to sent her for that back in time (besides that it was geeky and entertaining fun)?. Emma had to become an active part in the history of her parents, leave a more or less visible trace in their history before Emma’s birth, in the storybook, so that Emma now feels ready to embrace herself? I find that somewhat skewed. Shouldn’t her parents give her in the here and now the feeling of belonging, of home? Is it just a question of how Emma approached things, her emotions, actions and reactions, her psychology? I don’t quite see why this journey into past, this sentimental trip should truly make Emma feel now more at home with her parents. It’s like saying, do some therapy in the form of a mental trip into the past of your family, and things will be fine. Don’t get me wrong, therapy can help, even the classical Freudian trip into your past, psychoanalytical therapy can clarify, can open eyes, give a new view on things, but you have to do nevertheless the work to build a solution, do relationship work in the presence.
But there is hope, there is another season, and they need some story to tell there, don’t they. Just not that optimistic that they will tell this, kinda the other side necessary to make this truly a family, particular Snow still has to do some journey.
Just because we didn’t see an Emma/Henry hug doesn’t mean one didn’t happen. A lot of stuff happens off screen unfortunately (such as Belle reuniting with her father) which is a flaw of the show, but Henry wasn’t the focus of the scene, Emma recognising Snowing as her parents and home was.
Could have happened off screen. But it is a choice to let it happen there and not include Henry in this. This time trip was about Emma and her parents, her connection to their world, not to Henry, right. Henry didn’t play much of a role all over the second half of the season, he was barely anything else but a breathing prompter and plot device. Doesn’t mean that Emma doesn’t love him, doesn’t care, but it can be read as that the writers found Henry not worth to be included much in this part of Emma’s journey. It was Emma’s journey, but it was about family and defining home – and that Henry was made barely a part of it is remarkable and questionable.
¯\_(?????? ?)_/¯
Myril said:
Was it? (Emma developing a relationship with herself)
Yeah. 🙂 I obviously think so.
I posted on another thread that it was a deeply meaningful transition for Emma to see her mother specifically in the past, in action, as a woman, of her own age~ not her mother. It made an obvious impression on Emma’s current, and seemingly selfish behavior about returning to New York. She saw that it wasn’t all about Emma. It was about how her mother (and father) struggled and lived as genuine people with emotions and love and fears of their own. Kind of like the ones she had but wasn’t facing. It was one thing for her to read about it in the picture book…that made it easier for her to distance herself from it. Seeing it play out in person, though at first she marveled at it, she soon realized it was a deep part of her soul, indeed her very existence. She WAS the result of who they had been and she had been denying it. She was finally creating a relationship with THAT Emma.
When she finally owned it, she could accept, understand and want her part in it 🙂 Same as with the magic, once she allowed the magic into her heart, she embraced that part of her. Not as a momentary trick, but as a powerful gift. Something that was never really gone but once she found the way to accept it, there it was all the time. She accepted her relationship with magic.
I would say that the entire trip into the past was much more powerful than any modern *therapy* because she lived it with them for the short time she was there, it wasn’t a mental trip of her imagining how things were, or delving into her own background and memories…it was their physical life… and she was breathing it. And that is the most special kind of magic much more potent and immediate than modern therapy.
Oh, and lastly, yes, Hook needed to be there ( he wasn’t just there for Emma, he was there for David and his own realizations as well. But in regards to Emma)…he was needed…not necessarily for rescuing her, but for walking though the journey by her side and offering her the support, love, comfort and protection she MAY need, or in this case, want. So she was NOT alone. That is not a trivial thing. And it was another part of her relationship with herself she had to come to grips with. She was NOT alone.
***Always in search of a good flock***
We have different perspectives.
Emma is of the genes of Snow and Charming, they are her biological parent, their flesh and blood, but that is it. I know, for foster children, adopted children it can be a very strong and important moment with great impact to meet their biological parents, and they might be able to instantly build good rapport to them. But genes, flesh and blood make people only related on the biological level. I know, there is the saying, blood is thicker than water, and a lot of people seem to belief more in nature than nurture, but I am not one of them. Nature and nurture are equally important in the sense, that our genes give us the set we play with, but how we do it, that is nurture. I have a bond to my parents and siblings not because they are blood related to me, but because they raised me and I grew up with them. I know them in intimate ways and they me that not many other people do, that is the bond we have.
The bond Emma and Henry have is because if their shared experience and belief in each other.
Emma was the biological result of Snow and Charming meeting, but they had to give her up, not their choice, but it is what happened. That means, Emma grew up without them, for 28 years she knew nothing about them besides that there must have been two people and that they left her alone, and they had no influence on her besides being the absent parents. Emma has just begun to have a relationship with them, and half of that time she spend not remembering them again (New York).
Emma as a person with self-awareness, views, dreams, quirks, skills is a result of 28 years of life, not just of the romance of her parents.
I criticize, that the writers send Emma into the past of her parents to make a connection that should be build in the now, and barely has been build. A sentimental journey. I find that image skewed. I know, a lot of people say, that learning, knowing about your roots, where you are coming from tells you who you are and where you will be going, I did so myself, but I see it differently by now. I am not saying, the past should be ignored, but we are in the here, what we decide and do now, that is what defines us.
That sentimental journey had impact, I don’t deny that. It means there is now more more or less shared experience for Emma to build on, and building a relation with the parents she knew nothing about for 28 years is well adding to her view on herself. But the journey was not a journey of Emma to herself, it was about building relationship to her parents, her family, an aspect of herself. But one can say, that is just a matter of perspective.
But I wouldn’t say, Emma was running away from who she was, she was running away from who she was expected to be and who she could eventually become. Change can be a scary thing, even if it is to the better.
Maybe we can agree it was just a part of her big journey to herself or a better self? She might have learned to love herself a little more, accept that there is more to her than she felt she could handle so far, but I am very sure, she is not done with her journey.
And we won’t agree on Hook either. Yes, he was there, he was the writers choice of a chaperone or guardian of you like on this sentimental trip, of course he was not just her love puppy following her trail. Agree, it was important for her to be not alone on this journey. I question, why it was Hook, why the male lover, the romance. And I know they build it up for all of the season, he was made the logical companion, that is not my point. What the show lacks, and especially when it comes to Emma, is women empowering women.
Worse maybe even. So that Emma and Snow will build a positive relationship (again) it looks at the moment that it takes the joint efforts of Hook, Charming, Henry, a bit of Neal and probably even little Snowflake Neil (to keep them apart decided to use different spelling). This show was more progressive at the beginning of season 2, sending Emma and Snow on a shared trip in present EF. Sometimes it seems to me, like different from many in the audience the writers have chosen to forget about the first half of season 2, or that their memory about it is very selective. Remember that beautiful scene in season 2 at the end of episode 3, in the nursery? Well, I do. As I remember Snow saving her daughter from an Ogre with bow and arrow, them fighting together the zombies Cora send after them, and then Cora herself, not to mention mother and daughter teaming up with warrior Mulan and courageous princess Aurora. Where did that experience go? Is it worth so little that we now needed this sentimental journey to build new rapport? So that Emma now can embrace that part of herself, the family, relying on others and letting others in part? This trip was redundant, and it wasn’t, because they have butchered what they had build up in season 2A since 2B, so, right they had to do it again. Indeed, if I remember it correctly they have spoken of rebooting the show in season 3.
¯\_(?????? ?)_/¯
Obviously, we definitely do have different perspectives 🙂
And I am quite comfortable and at peace with embracing mine and standing by it wholeheartedly regarding Emma’s journey. Backward and forward and in the “now”.
I view “sentimental” journeys as essential to knowing yourself. Always will. Being “sentimental ” does not negate anything. It further educates your soul. One has free choice to do what they like with that education.
And, you are correct…we disagree about Hook. I don’t question at all the writers’ choice to send Hook with her. Never will. 🙂 I applaud it.
The cycle of female empowerment has not been harmed by the presence of a male- lover, father, son, friend or otherwise. It has been enhanced and strengthened. In my eyes and mind what makes females so strong is the acceptance, recognition, support and celebration of their own and other women’s worth ~without discounting the worth and celebration of what males bring to that cycle.
The totality of one’s life is made fuller and richer by respectfully embracing experiences involving both females and males. To me, from my perspective, and I very willingly own it (smile)~ that is the way to true personal empowerment.
Show wise, specifically for Emma, because she now has had the immense advantage and privilege of knowing her parents and breathing in their actual history, what they all build together from here on out is the very human adventure and challenge of season 4.
***Always in search of a good flock***
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