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@thedarkonedearie : feel free to respond to anything said above, but I’m gonna go ahead and ask question #2
Has Emma progressed, regressed, or stayed the same in terms of development since S1?
[adrotate group="5"]"He was a lot of things to me" "The only conclusion was love"I’ll tackle my own question again:
Has Emma progressed, regressed, or stayed the same in terms of development since S1?
To be fair to the show, in some ways, yes, Emma has progressed. She no longer balks at the idea of being a mother, a daughter, or the Savior. She’s embraced those roles and even had to face what it would mean if she wasn’t those things and always decided that they are a big part of her makeup. Season 1 Emma ran from things, S2-onward Emma fights to keep those.
There are, however, two issues. The first is that her interpersonal relationships with the people for whom she is a mother, daughter, Savior–so, Henry, Snow and Charming, and the town of SB–have largely stagnated. Snow and Emma have little contact in which their relationship grows or is meaningfully thought upon. The writers seem to believe that mother and daughter stop developing after they accept each other, as if there is an end game for that relationship. Henry is inserted into scenes when the writers remember that they are actually paying Jared to be a character. And the town has largely become a ghost city inhabited only by the CharMillStiltskin clan and, sometimes, the dwarves. This last one bothers me quite a bit. In S1 we had instances of Emma doing her job as sheriff and interacting with the town at large. It gave the audience a chance to see the makeup of Emma’s character (tough, just, but fair) and it gave the small-town-USA feel to Storybrooke and those little slice of life moments resonated with the audience as charming, endearing and serving to make the town a character unto itself. I can’t really remember the last time we saw Emma doing any proper sherrif-ing or interacting with someone who wasn’t her family, her romantic leads, or the “arc” people.
The second issue is that Emma’s narrative repeats itself every new arc. That narrative goes a little something like this:
Emma: “I have walls. I am damaged. When I get scared, my emotional walls go up.”
Person of the Arc: “Don’t be scared. I won’t leave you. We’re alike.”
Emma: “I feel better! Gosh, we’re really alike and you get me!” *goes something magical and heroic*
Person of the Arc *leaves*
New Arc Begins
Emma: “I have walls. I am damaged. When I get scared, my emotional walls go up.”
Now, in season 1 this narrative worked really well, as it should. Emma should be emotionally closed off and scared because the show is new, she’s a new character and in order for their to be positive growth you have to start your character at some sort of point zero. In the first season, it was the love of Henry, the friendship of Mary Margaret, and the sense of duty to the town and its inhabitants (like Granny, Ruby, Ashley, and August) that really pushed Emma and brought down the darn walls. Even in S2, we saw a bit more development because other characters were introduced, namely through the idea of romance with both Neal and Hook.
However, from there the story becomes the same cycle that I pointed out above. In S3A it was a mix of Hook and Snow, though Hook was sold as the more prominent of the two. In S3B it was again Hook who brought down those walls, allowing Emma to “give into inevitable love story” with him after learning he traded his ship. In 4A it was Elsa who was “just like Emma” and brought down those walls (and then was never heard from again). In 4B it was Hook, and in S5A it was…yeah, still Hook. (This, by the way, goes back to our previous discussion on strong females).
So while Emma has progressed past her S1 stage, I don’t think she’s moved very far past that point. Instead every seasonal arc, she interacts with some new character (or, her romantic lead(s))), has her walls come down, and then…it starts all over. It’s progression, regression, and stagnation all at the same time which is a somewhat remarkable feat, I guess.
"He was a lot of things to me" "The only conclusion was love"I think Emma progressed up to about 3A then began to regress when CS started being pushed to the forefront. CS doesn’t serve Emma’s character, Emma serves CS.
All magic comes with a price!
Keeper of FelixIn 4B it was Hook, and in S5A it was…yeah, still Hook. (This, by the way, goes back to our previous discussion on strong females).
Yes. In response, I’m going to quote from an essay which I linked back to on the previous page:
A strong female character is one who is defined by her own characteristics, history and personality, and not solely by the actions or needs of other characters. She is a person in the story, not a prop. That is the best definition I can come up with. Note that my definition did not involve martial arts.
Post-S2 Emma does still have her “strong heroine” moments (e.g. saving herself in S3 finale, learning to love herself in S4, and saving Regina in S4b), but S5 saw her story take a backseat and become quite passive. Emma learning to receive help from others is part of her journey, but S5a was her chance to shine. In a half season that was supposed to be all about her and her ability to overcome the lure of darkness, the story actually became all about her destructive romance with Hook and how her love for him actually caused her to give into the darkness (which, until his death, she’d actually been able to resist with the help of others).
The only bad female character, if you ask me (and you did), is one who’s flat. One who isn’t realistic. One who has no agency of her own, who only exists to define other characters (usually men). Write each woman you write as if she has her own life story, her own motivations, her own fears and strengths, and even if she’s only in the story for one page, she will be a real person, and THAT is what we need. Not a phalanx of women who can karate-chop your head off, but REAL women, who are people, with all the complexity and strong and not-strong that goes with it.
In my estimation, Emma has become flat, because she is constantly recycled every half season. It seems that every half-season finale she has a moment of inner strength and self-recognition (e.g. the exceptions of Emma saving herself in S3 finale, her learning to love herself in S4a, and Emma saving Regina from the darkness in S4b) but then gets reset to zero by the start of the next season.
Emma largely took a backseat in S5a that was supposed to be all about the Dark Swan and her development as she grappled with the darkness and found a way to overcome it herself. Instead, she gave into it because of “love being a weapon” rather than a strength for Emma in her relationship with Hook.
The measure of whether a relationship is good for the heroine is whether it helps her or hinders her on her journey, and if you ask me, Emma giving into the darkness by selfishly clinging to Hook reveals that it drastically crippled her. Instead of defeating the darkness, aided by the love and support of her family and friends, Emma gave into her insecurity to keep Hook alive, despite his wishes not to be made into a dark one. Emma giving into her weaknesses because of her insecurity of being abandoned is the opposite of the “love is strength” mantra that Emma lived by in S2.
Not only was Emma passive, but she wasn’t heroic in S5a. Where was Emma’s realization to hold onto goodness? Emma defying Hook’s wish to let him go meant Emma condemned herself and Hook to a fate worse than death (becoming dark ones). As a direct consequence, Hook’s unhealthy obsession with revenge became destructive and hurt Emma and those she loves. So Emma was partially to blame for unleashing another dark one on the world, instead of defeating the darkness once and for all when she had the chance. Strong heroine she is not.
"That’s how you know you’ve really got a home. When you leave it, there’s this feeling that you can’t shake. You just miss it." Neal Cassidy
There are plenty of valid points on here, and a ton of material to read (lots of passionate fans here with strong opinions). So without going through and quoting a bunch of stuff everyone has written, I’ll just summarize a couple things.
– Emma’s actions in Nimue were extremely heroic and she did it by herself. Hook was nowhere to be found. So although much of the arc was her boyfriend trying to calm her down, not listen to Rumple in her head etc. etc., the most challenging test for Emma as a hero came when Hook was not around. She fought it herself.
“I am not nothing. I was never nothing. The power you have, I don’t need.”
If you can watch that and tell me that isn’t her showing how powerful and heroic she is, then we will never find a common ground. For me, it was at that point in season 5a that the writers realized Emma was too strong of a character to just let the darkness take over. So they wrote Hook into it. And as far as Hook being responsible for his actions, absolutely. The fact that Hook seems like he may get a pass here and Rumple hasn’t for what he did, is not fair. However, I will say, I think Rumple was treated much better after he sacrificed himself in season 3a. It wasn’t until he started doing bad things again that people starting hating him again. Right now, although Hook caused the damage, he did sacrifice himself as Rumple did before. Yes, the sacrifices were very different, but just at face value here, it was a sacrifice so the resulting behavior toward Hook will likely be that of understanding. Now if Hook starts being a bad person again, characters should turn on him as they did with Rumple when he started going after the hat. And if that doesn’t happen, it’s not fair.
And I will say this again…..why is it so bad that Hook’s deep villainy issues are way more intense than Emma or Rumple’s? You are right, Rumple never said those things to Belle. But I think that simply emphasizes that Hook was a worse person than Rumple. So when he became the DO, his inner demons were more intense, and more easily manipulated by the darkness. It doesn’t give him a free pass for what he did. I think it highlights that he still may a total jerk. But to me, if he’s a bad person still deep down inside, it makes sense that he would be the worst DO.
And since we know that Emma has the same chance of being evil as being good according to season 4, the struggle she was going through, especially in The Dark Swan really rang true for me. She almost gave in many times, but really never did anything that bad. That shows her power and heroism. Everyone else who were DO’s didn’t have the same potential for darkness that Emma had. Her struggle felt very real, and she needed some help. I had no problem that Hook, Merlin, Henry a little but not much, Snowing a little but not much, and occasionally Regina, had to help her along the way. Henry, Snowing, and Regina should have been a bigger player though I agree. The writers clearly wanted to progress the CS relationship here so Hook got more screen time helping her.
As far as plot goes, what I meant was that when you said things like she didn’t spend like any time with her parents, or Henry….plot points that to me doesn’t really directly affect how “strong” of a character she is, it’s not fair to say she isn’t as strong because they are writing Snowing and Henry like out of the show. When she needed to be strong, and the writing gave her the chance, she has mostly been strong. There have certainly been slip ups, but not enough for me to all of a sudden declare The Savior as a weak character.
And your second question, as far as whether she has progressed, I believe she has. In season 1, she learned to love the son she never knew, and she finally believed in fairy tales and her son. In season 2, she began to understand the power love truly has resulting in her direct power through Snowing’s true love (thinking queen of hearts here), she learned to forgive (I’m thinking Neal here), and then fought for him when she absolutely knew Tamara was bad news, even when everyone else thought she was crazy. She saved Neal (and then lost him), she saved Regina from Greg’s torture chamber, and she started believing that she can be “The Savior.” In season 3, she led the whole group in Neverland, and although Regina was the one to get pan in the end before they went back to Storybrooke, and even though it was Rumple who ultimately killed him and himself for everyone, Emma progressed with coming to terms with being an orphan, and she also came to terms with no longer wanting to love Neal anymore (I’m thinking in the cave when they all reveal their “secrets.”). And in the back half, although it was Regina’s arc to shine, the finale was important for Emma, to understand and to actually see how everything started with her parents, and then ultimately saving them. Season 4 also had it’s Emma Swan moments for me. The frozen arc especially. Her parallel to Elsa I thought was actually well done, and their eventual bonding and understanding of each other being misunderstood, I thought worked well. And Emma also gets some more information about one of her foster mothers and her life (Ingrid) in that particular foster home with Lily, her best friend. This season she also moved along in her relationship with Hook. Whether you like it or not, the relationship progressed to something bigger than what it was. And then now with season 5a, I’ve already explained why I feel she has shown tremendous strength, through her own mental and physical challenges, but also letting another man into her life after seeing yet another boyfriend of hers, die in front of her.
Well, that was longer than I thought. But again, sure the character has had it’s ups and downs, mainly due to inconsistent writing, but she always usually has a few scenes throughout each season to assure us she is still the hero of this story and still is quite the force to be reckoned with.
Emma’s actions in Nimue were extremely heroic and she did it by herself. Hook was nowhere to be found. So although much of the arc was her boyfriend trying to calm her down, not listen to Rumple in her head etc. etc., the most challenging test for Emma as a hero came when Hook was not around. She fought it herself.
Nobody has denied this. But a one off moment of self-empowerment doesn’t negate all the other times when it is Hook–and Hook alone–saving Emma, who is being presented as a frail, sickly, mute patient. And what’s missing from the Emma/Nimue argument is what happens *after* that–Emma brings darkness into the world doubly over (by making Hook a dark one), erases her families memories, and essentially become the “Evil Queen” by allowing the Dark Curse to occur. So while her moment with Nimue is a powerful one, it matters very little in the end because her entire story and arc once again is reduced to Hook.
But to me, if he’s a bad person still deep down inside, it makes sense that he would be the worst DO
I’ve never said the opposite. He should be the worst of the DOs if he is indeed the worst of people. But you’re missing the entire point: we, the audience, see this: Bad Hook = Even Worse DO. But the show–the narrative–isn’t saying that. They’re showing the correlation that Bad Hook = Even Worse DO, but then they turn around and say “it’s all the darkness’s fault” and “we have to go to Hell to save him because he’s a hero.” It’s a total double standard and a total disconnect in the logic of the narrative. The writers want to have their cake and eat it too–they want Hook to be the worst DO we’ve ever seen (implying that he’s the worst of the characters) but then they turn around and have Emma call him a hero, one deserving to live again, and that their love is equal to Snow and Charming.
The writers clearly wanted to progress the CS relationship here so Hook got more screen time helping her.
But it’s not him helping her. He isn’t there as an emotional support system while Emma fights herself. It’s Hook literally being the cure. Hook becomes the actor in her life. He has to take her and tell her to get on the horse. He has to get her out of the castle. He has to help her limp out, mute, from a room. He isn’t just there while Emma’s internal struggle plays out on screen, which would be understandable and more acceptable. He’s literally being the agent in the story.
"He was a lot of things to me" "The only conclusion was love"– Emma’s actions in Nimue were extremely heroic and she did it by herself. Hook was nowhere to be found. So although much of the arc was her boyfriend trying to calm her down, not listen to Rumple in her head etc. etc., the most challenging test for Emma as a hero came when Hook was not around. She fought it herself.
“I am not nothing. I was never nothing. The power you have, I don’t need.”
Yes, but that was before Hook got sliced with Excalibur and before she chose to defy his wish and turn him into another dark one. Like I wrote, Emma still has her strong heroine moments, but they’re undermined by her relationship with Hook. She gave into fear rather than honored his wishes to let him go. He would rather have given his life than be turned into something he abhorred. Emma wasn’t thinking of Hook’s welfare or of the consequences of unleashing another dark one on her family and indeed the world. She was only thinking of her fear of abandonment. Emma betrayed Hook in the worst possible way (in his estimation); that is what S5a was all about and why “love as weapon” was the theme.
If you can watch that and tell me that isn’t her showing how powerful and heroic she is, then we will never find a common ground. For me, it was at that point in season 5a that the writers realized Emma was too strong of a character to just let the darkness take over. So they wrote Hook into it.
But Emma did fully let the darkness consume her the moment she tethered Hook to Excalibur. For most S5a, Emma was struggling to keep the darkness at bay with the help of her family and friends. However, Emma choosing to tether Hook to Excalibur is what made her fully embrace the darkness and turned her from the semi-dark one into the full Dark Swan. Real love honors the beloved; it doesn’t betray him. What she did to Hook was incredibly selfish and ignoble; Emma betrayed Hook in the worst possible way because of her fear. She was afraid of being left alone again. That fateful and selfish decision to tether him against his wishes is why she visibly went from wearing white to wearing all black.
That is why I argue that whatever Emma and Hook share, it is destructive to both of them. She wasn’t motivated by strength but by fear. It’s selfishness on her part to try and turn Hook into the thing he hates the most. Real love isn’t selfish.
"That’s how you know you’ve really got a home. When you leave it, there’s this feeling that you can’t shake. You just miss it." Neal Cassidy
I would have so much to say about Emma but i will not say it, bc would be long and i dont intend to write long posts about characters i dislike.
But that to talk about this one, quote:
she also came to terms with no longer wanting to love Neal anymore (I’m thinking in the cave when they all reveal their “secrets.”).
That quote is the type of things, and i would not want use ships terms, so i will put it, this way, people that are no fans of SF, bc people take the line in the episode totally wrong, Emma doesnt say she no longer wants to love Neal, is very much the opposite, she says that she loves him and always will, but she is afraid of losing him again, and she doesnt want to deal with that pain again, of losing him, bc was to dificult the 1st time, and then when she thought he was dead, she not once said she didnt want to love him again, especially bc u cant choose who u love.
Also Emma never saved Neal, at least not on the show, she did save him in fan fiction written by fans, she she svaed in on the show, i mean, if the writers wanted her to save him, he would be alive now, and she had mnay chances of doing so.
Also, looking above, yeah, Emma not talking about walls, is not longer a person that belives bad people should pay for their mistakes, bc if she was S1 emma, again walls aside, Hook, Regina, Rumple and Zelena all would be in jail to pay for the crimes they did and the fact that they all walk around and even will try to save hook. Emma depends on hook, in another show, this would end with Emma seing that she really doesnt love hook, she only thinks she does, she sort of reminds of a friend, my friend had many problems with her parents, then they got divorce, her mom went away with her new boyfriend leaving her and her sis with their father and stepmom, she has a boyfriend of many years, he treats her like crap, she fight already with her parents bc they dont like the boy, she actually only gets out with him, she no longer hangs with any of her friends and when she does is with him, but she cant leave him, bc she thinks in her mind he is the only person that cares about her, like if he leaves her , she thinks he wont be able to live, that her family, friends are not enough, bc she also thinks she wont be able to find someone that loves her like this person loves her, i have to add that both of them have low self esteem, but he is for sure the strong personality in the relation, that is not Love, in her case she is actually co dependent of him, just like Hook got in Emma head that he is the only person that she needs, like i said in another show this could have a great story, but here in OUAt is called TL.
And this ended being longer than i actually thought.
"I offended you with my opinion? Ha, you should hear the ones I keep to myself".
But Emma did fully let the darkness consume her the moment she tethered Hook to Excalibur. For most S5a, Emma was struggling to keep the darkness at bay with the help of her family and friends. However, Emma choosing to tether Hook to Excalibur is what made her fully embrace the darkness and turned her from the semi-dark one into the full Dark Swan. Real love honors the beloved; it doesn’t betray him. What she did to Hook was incredibly selfish and ignoble; Emma betrayed Hook in the worst possible way because of her fear. She was afraid of being left alone again. That fateful and selfish decision to tether him against his wishes is why she visibly went from wearing white to wearing all black.
So then shouldn’t she feel responsible for what Hook did as a result of making him become the DO? Shouldn’t she want to go save him? I feel like you can’t feel like Hook was responsible for his actions, but then say it’s Emma’s fault. You either think that Emma, who has been afraid to love because she always loses the ones closest to her, did not want to lose someone she cares about and felt she could get the darkness out of him and figure it out. She chose to keep him alive, selfish reasons or not. If you think you love somebody, I imagine it’s pretty hard to just let them go. I understand her wanting to save him, and although the show says that was her giving into the darkness, it just didn’t feel that way. If saving someone from death is darkness, then idk anymore. So she saved him, but then Hook, very much in control of his actions, was horrible. So you either think that, or you think Emma was selfish and it’s her fault Hook did what he did. And if that’s the case, and you are thinking about it in Emma’s eyes, wouldn’t you want to save the guy you think you love who just sacrificed himself after a darkness battle he only had to endure because you made him this way?
That quote is the type of things, and i would not want use ships terms, so i will put it, this way, people that are no fans of SF, bc people take the line in the episode totally wrong, Emma doesnt say she no longer wants to love Neal, is very much the opposite, she says that she loves him and always will, but she is afraid of losing him again, and she doesnt want to deal with that pain again, of losing him, bc was to dificult the 1st time, and then when she thought he was dead, she not once said she didnt want to love him again, especially bc u cant choose who u love. Also Emma never saved Neal, at least not on the show, she did save him in fan fiction written by fans, she she svaed in on the show, i mean, if the writers wanted her to save him, he would be alive now, and she had mnay chances of doing so.
So two things. I think the scene with Emma and Neal in the cave is so heart-wrenching. Well done by Jennifer Morrison. And I think it can be interpreted in many different ways. Perhaps I worded it wrong. You’re right, she does say,”I know I’d never stop loving you. I love you. I probably always will love you.” No doubt she feels like she will always love him. And if that was the end of the conversation, I would side with you on this. But it’s not. She then says, “I was hoping you were dead. Because it would be easy to put you behind me, then to face all the pain we went through all over again.”
I find this to be very realistic. You break up with someone, and sometimes you will always have a place in your heart for them. But I think she makes it pretty clear that although she still loves him, she needs to move on and does not want to be with him.
And as far as Emma saving Neal, I simply meant when Tamara was about to shoot him, and Emma intervenes and kicks her butt. That’s saving someone.
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