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So everyone has social security numbers in SB, because they magically appeared within the US System.
Absolute conjecture on your part. There has never been any proof whatsoever that anyone in SB has a SS# that would be recognizable to the United States Government. The Curse did not affect the outside world. The US government does not know of SB, Maine. They have never filed for federal taxes, they do not vote in public elections.
So Storybrooke is a magically created town that in the eyes of the law, is a real town.
SB is real in the sense that it exists for the people living in it. Legally, to the United States of America this town does not exist and has never existed.
I agree.
There’s also this bit from Saving Henry when Regina went to adopt Henry.
Adoption Agent: (Takes off glasses) I’ve never heard of Storybrooke.
Regina: Oh, it’s a hidden gem. Peaceful. Perfect for children. It’s like a fairy tale. You should come visit sometime.I just want to reiterate one point: none of this matters. Henry and Henry’s opinion matter more than who has “legal” or “magical” or “the most right” to him. Henry wants to be with both his mothers and the town and the family are situated in way that makes this incredibly workable. And that’s what this needs to be about: what is best for Henry and his emotional and developmental well being.
I agree with this too.
[adrotate group="5"]For the record, like I’ve said both times before, I do agree that in the show Henry will most likely split his time (probably pretty much equally) between both of his mothers, because from what we’ve seen, that’s what he wants and he’s old enough to have a say in his own life. Henry has forgiven Regina for what she’s done to him and others, just like everyone seems to have pretty much forgiven everyone else for their various horrible past crimes; it’s not exactly realistic, but it is a TV show.
However, this hypothetical argument is quite fun, so with the full understanding that none of this will come up in the actual show…
II.
Emma: Your honor…this woman is the Evil Queen who cursed every fairy tale character to Storybrooke! She magically crushed the heart of the former Sheriff of Storybrooke! And poisoned my son with a sleeping cursed Apple Turnover! Cursed Belle with amnesia, and used her as bait for Rumpelstilskin! (Rumple would be tied into the Kathryn situation/tampering evidence, so I’m sure he’s going to make sure that doesn’t come up, plus…he owes Regina because she did come up with that ulterior Pan situation that could have worked, not to mention she saved him from both Pan and Zelena control. Greg and Tamara are dead, so NO ONE knows about the whole Owen Situation.)
Yes, a lot of it would be difficult to prove (although if Emma or someone proved by demonstration that magic was real in Storybrooke, then it would be a lot easier to make the case. And I’m sure there’s some kind of truth serum; put Regina under that and see what she says!). However, regarding Kurt, Hook knew that Greg wanted to find his father and since no one ever did see him, it wouldn’t be much of a leap to assume that Regina had murdered him. And there’s a body. I bet Ruby could sniff it out. And one murder count is enough to put someone away for life. And as for attempted murder, Dr. Whale, Emma, and Henry could testify as to that experience. And I could go on.
But honestly all of that doesn’t even matter, because here’s the kicker: the original Storybrooke Regina created was destroyed when Pan re-cast the curse. Gone, as though it had never existed, even in Henry and Emma’s memories. It never existed, so in the current state of affairs, there would never have been any record of Regina having legally adopted Henry. Instead, there would be paper trails and proof of Emma having raised Henry since he was a baby. And since Henry wasn’t part of the most recent curse (the one that re-created Storybrooke), there wouldn’t have been any new fake records for him either. So when you take that into account, it’s Regina who, in the current situation, has no legal rights to Henry whatsoever.
But honestly all of that doesn’t even matter, because here’s the kicker: the original Storybrooke Regina created was destroyed when Pan re-cast the curse. Gone, as though it had never existed, even in Henry and Emma’s memories. It never existed, so in the current state of affairs, there would never have been any record of Regina having legally adopted Henry. Instead, there would be paper trails and proof of Emma having raised Henry since he was a baby. And since Henry wasn’t part of the most recent curse (the one that re-created Storybrooke), there wouldn’t have been any new fake records for him either. So when you take that into account, it’s Regina who, in the current situation, has no legal rights to Henry whatsoever.
That is an excellent point and one I actually hadn’t thought of.
All magic comes with a price!
Keeper of FelixI just want to reiterate one point: none of this matters. Henry and Henry’s opinion matter more than who has “legal” or “magical” or “the most right” to him. Henry wants to be with both his mothers and the town and the family are situated in way that makes this incredibly workable. And that’s what this needs to be about: what is best for Henry and his emotional and developmental well being.
I know! Well…Henry….hmmm….he just now got back on my good side in Season 3B! I’m subject to flip back to disliking Henry at any moment if he goes back to his S1 & S2 ways.
All I’m saying is…Emma’s whole “Mother Knows Best” Act in Season 3B irked me so much! Maybe she won’t be like that anymore….it was her acting as if she was solely Henry’s mother, and I know what’s best, and I’m taking Henry back to NYC persona that I did not care for, when she’s really been in his life for two years. That’s all I’m saying! At the end of the day…Emma did sweep back in town, and stole her son back.
I will admit that Regina acting out of fear of losing him did push him further in Emma’s direction. When she was making an effort to turn around, Emma & the Charmings took the memories of a DOG instead of going through Regina’s own memories, and instantly put her on the guilty list. And that whole “Emma doesn’t have to run anything by you anymore.” and “No he’s not, He’s my son!” didn’t help the situation at all.
For once….I’d like a real moment where Emma confesses that Regina is Henry’s mother, who raised Henry, and did a heck of a great job at it. And I’d love for Regina to confess that Emma is Henry’s birth mother, and that it’s best for their son to have both of them in their lives. It’s a matter of understanding their place. Let’s just toss out labels, like adoptive and birth, and just agree….they’re both his mothers!
Do I along with many other Evil Regals believe Henry should go back home with Regina, yes, that’s his home. He grew up there, he can spend the entire day with Emma if he wants to! Even spend the night over Emma’s place on the weekends, but 108 Mifflin Street is his home! My best friend had twins, whose father was never in their life! After getting his life together, the dad now wants to be a part of his kids life, and takes them out at times, spends loads of time with them, but they come back home to their mother at the end of the day. In real life…that’s kind of how it works.
@EPONA Quote:But honestly all of that doesn’t even matter, because here’s the kicker: the original Storybrooke Regina created was destroyed when Pan re-cast the curse. Gone, as though it had never existed, even in Henry and Emma’s memories. It never existed, so in the current state of affairs, there would never have been any record of Regina having legally adopted Henry. Instead, there would be paper trails and proof of Emma having raised Henry since he was a baby. And since Henry wasn’t part of the most recent curse (the one that re-created Storybrooke), there wouldn’t have been any new fake records for him either. So when you take that into account, it’s Regina who, in the current situation, has no legal rights to Henry whatsoever.
@WickedRegal’s Response:Ummmmmmm……whew….ok! Here’s the kicker to that, what Regina created was Storybrooke! When she transported everyone back to the EF, yes SB disappeared. But Storybrooke was originally sealed within the Dark Curse, and was then resealed back into the Dark Curse. When the Dark Curse was recast, the SAME Storybrooke appeared, with everything back as it was. All the events that occurred in SB, remains there. SO all of those documents are still in Storybrooke, SO Regina still has legal rights to Henry!
And to further add onto this….Emma still has NO legal rights to Henry! She signed over ALL parental rights, so in the eyes of the law, she is a stranger to Henry Mills!
"If you go as far as you can see...you will then see enough to go even further." - Finn Balor
When the Dark Curse was recast, the SAME Storybrooke appeared, with everything back as it was. All the events that occurred in SB, remains there. SO all of those documents are still in Storybrooke, SO Regina still has legal rights to Henry! And to further add onto this….Emma still has NO legal rights to Henry! She signed over ALL parental rights, so in the eyes of the law, she is a stranger to Henry Mills!
Well here’s the kicker to that: for the past year, Emma has had Henry in school which require a SS#, a birth certificate, and records all of which make Emma Swan his legal mother post-311 destruction of Storybrooke. If anything there are now TWO legal records, one which names Regina his legal mother, and one that names Emma.
"He was a lot of things to me" "The only conclusion was love"I know! Well…Henry….hmmm….he just now got back on my good side in Season 3B! I’m subject to flip back to disliking Henry at any moment if he goes back to his S1 & S2 ways.
Henry got back on my good side too in 3B. 3A he was a bit gullible but tolerable. Season 1, you could forgive him because he was young, but season 2 Henry was so irritating and was a brat. His treatment of Regina in season 2 was wrong. If he didn’t want anything to do with her, he should’ve stuck to that, rather than dangling himself as a reward then taking it away from her once she did what he wanted.
All I’m saying is…Emma’s whole “Mother Knows Best” Act in Season 3B irked me so much! Maybe she won’t be like that anymore….it was her acting as if she was solely Henry’s mother, and I know what’s best, and I’m taking Henry back to NYC persona that I did not care for, when she’s really been in his life for two years. That’s all I’m saying! At the end of the day…Emma did sweep back in town, and stole her son back.
I loved it when Emma put Henry in his place in 3B. I just wish she had done that to season 2 Henry. Season 2 Henry played the adults off against each other. Emma was the best thing since sliced bread and Regina didn’t get a look in. Suddenly Emma is on the outs and Neal is the new best thing in Henry’s life. Henry was very disrespectful to the adults around him in season 2.
I will admit that Regina acting out of fear of losing him did push him further in Emma’s direction. When she was making an effort to turn around, Emma & the Charmings took the memories of a DOG instead of going through Regina’s own memories, and instantly put her on the guilty list.
You forget that before taking Pongo’s memories, Snowing and Emma accused both Regina and Rumple of murdering Archie. Does it never occur to them that there are other people who might do these things? That is a good point though, why didn’t they use Regina’s memories? I don’t blame Rumple for just trying to remove himself from the line of fire, Snowing and Emma interrupted his time with Belle and would do so again later in the season. Also I find it annoying how Snowing will always run to Rumple for help yet accuse him when things go bad.
And that whole “Emma doesn’t have to run anything by you anymore.” and “No he’s not, He’s my son!” didn’t help the situation at all.
Snow annoys me when she says things like that, Snow always makes situations worse. Emma was very emotional when she said that to Regina, she believed Regina had just killed someone.
Ummmmmmm……whew….ok! Here’s the kicker to that, what Regina created was Storybrooke! When she transported everyone back to the EF, yes SB disappeared. But Storybrooke was originally sealed within the Dark Curse, and was then resealed back into the Dark Curse. When the Dark Curse was recast, the SAME Storybrooke appeared, with everything back as it was. All the events that occurred in SB, remains there. SO all of those documents are still in Storybrooke, SO Regina still has legal rights to Henry!
And to further add onto this….Emma still has NO legal rights to Henry! She signed over ALL parental rights, so in the eyes of the law, she is a stranger to Henry Mills!
Thing is though, Emma would’ve had to have some documentation on Henry when she enrolled him in his New York school. It’s Emma’s memories that were changed rather than time but Emma would’ve still needed documentation. Regina would’ve probably provided some to make the illusion convincing.
Also the price Regina paid was that she couldn’t see Henry ever again but she has, so I think the price she actually had to pay was that she had to give up being a mother to Henry. so although she is still Henry’s “mother” Emma is now legally his mother.
All magic comes with a price!
Keeper of FelixUmmmmmmm……whew….ok! Here’s the kicker to that, what Regina created was Storybrooke! When she transported everyone back to the EF, yes SB disappeared. But Storybrooke was originally sealed within the Dark Curse, and was then resealed back into the Dark Curse. When the Dark Curse was recast, the SAME Storybrooke appeared, with everything back as it was. All the events that occurred in SB, remains there. SO all of those documents are still in Storybrooke, SO Regina still has legal rights to Henry!
And to further add onto this….Emma still has NO legal rights to Henry! She signed over ALL parental rights, so in the eyes of the law, she is a stranger to Henry Mills!
I’m sorry, but what proof is there for any of that? There were plenty of new people who weren’t in Storybrooke the first time. Clearly the curse changed, or Aurora, Zelena, and whoever else wouldn’t have come through–or if they had, they would’ve been homeless since we saw in season one that there weren’t any empty homes or apartments in the original Storybrooke. And the adoption documents weren’t ever part of the curse; Rumple had those drawn up later. So why would they magically come back even if everything else that was part of the creation of Storybrooke did? Also worth noting–it’s not as though Regina wrote the curse herself; Rumple did and she just cast it. Snow cast the one that created the current Storybrooke.
And none of that negates the fact that due to their new lives and new memories, at the very least there would be two sets of legal paperwork for Henry, just like he and Emma have two sets of memories. If you’re so sure Regina’s paperwork was perfect and 100% legit for the first Storybrooke, then it stands to reason that it would be for Henry and Emma’s new life as well.
There are lots of other issues that would come into play as well from an ethics standpoint, but from a purely legal (and purely hypothetical) standpoint? Either Regina has no legal right to Henry (likely since the entire existence of the first Storybrooke was negated) or there are at least two (perfectly legitimate according to your theory) sets of records for Henry.
Also, how on earth is any of this Henry’s fault? He’s one of the most innocent victims in this whole mess.
Editing to add: Sorry for re-stating what RG and PoM had already said above…I started writing before either of them had posted; it took me a while to finish!
Stop fighting!! Ur making this baby sad!! Lets all just agree on one thing, if not anything else: HENRY WANTS TO BE WITH BOTH OF HIS MOMS!! Let us look again to what HE wanted to do about a living situation. HE wants to live with both Emma and Regina, not one over the other, or just visiting one. He wants both. Now lets focus on other things…. Henry should definetely get some bad-butt clothes to match Regina, Rumpel, and Charming. I mean the young lad is a bit young for leather, but we could give him cool fur coats and…swords…or whatever young enchanted forest men wear >_>
"I could have the giant duck as my steed!" --Daniel Radcliffe
Keeper Of Tamara's Taser , Jafar's Staff, Kitsis’s Glasses , Ariel’s Tail, Dopey's Hat , Peter Pan’s Shadow, Outfit, & Pied Cloak,Red Queen's Castle, White Rabbit's Power To World Hop, Zelena's BroomStick, & ALL MAGICUmmmmmmm……whew….ok! Here’s the kicker to that, what Regina created was Storybrooke! When she transported everyone back to the EF, yes SB disappeared. But Storybrooke was originally sealed within the Dark Curse, and was then resealed back into the Dark Curse. When the Dark Curse was recast, the SAME Storybrooke appeared, with everything back as it was. All the events that occurred in SB, remains there. SO all of those documents are still in Storybrooke, SO Regina still has legal rights to Henry! And to further add onto this….Emma still has NO legal rights to Henry! She signed over ALL parental rights, so in the eyes of the law, she is a stranger to Henry Mills!
I’m sorry, but what proof is there for any of that? There were plenty of new people who weren’t in Storybrooke the first time. Clearly the curse changed, or Aurora, Zelena, and whoever else wouldn’t have come through–or if they had, they would’ve been homeless since we saw in season one that there weren’t any empty homes or apartments in the original Storybrooke. And the adoption documents weren’t ever part of the curse; Rumple had those drawn up later. So why would they magically come back even if everything else that was part of the creation of Storybrooke did? Also worth noting–it’s not as though Regina wrote the curse herself; Rumple did and she just cast it. Snow cast the one that created the current Storybrooke. And none of that negates the fact that due to their new lives and new memories, at the very least there would be two sets of legal paperwork for Henry, just like he and Emma have two sets of memories. If you’re so sure Regina’s paperwork was perfect and 100% legit for the first Storybrooke, then it stands to reason that it would be for Henry and Emma’s new life as well. There are lots of other issues that would come into play as well from an ethics standpoint, but from a purely legal (and purely hypothetical) standpoint? Either Regina has no legal right to Henry (likely since the entire existence of the first Storybrooke was negated) or there are at least two (perfectly legitimate according to your theory) sets of records for Henry. Also, how on earth is any of this Henry’s fault? He’s one of the most innocent victims in this whole mess. Editing to add: Sorry for re-stating what RG and PoM had already said above…I started writing before either of them had posted; it took me a while to finish!
Now….how Emma managed to do all of that….I will never know! Adam and Eddy do need to give some clarification on who has the rights to Henry Mills. But….Emma having documents….I don’t see how! Emma gave birth at a US Hospital, and signed over her parental rights. Somewhere in the US, those documents still exist, and someone has them. Emma has no legal rights to Henry, so Adam and Eddy had a major writing flaw with that one, because she should not have been able to enroll him anywhere in school, unless behind the scenes, Regina whipped up some magical falsified documents, and gave them to Emma right before she left, which permitted her to do so.
Again….Emma has no legal rights to Henry Mills. Regina, although few Oncers find her adoption to still be illegal, has those rights because just as there are documents for Emma’s non parental rights, somewhere in Boston, the Agency has documents of Regina adopting Henry. So….by law….Henry is Regina’s son.
And for the final time….Storybrooke was more than likely sealed back into the Dark Curse! And when Snow cast it, it brought Storybrooke and everything in it back! Which means, documents and all!
And another thing…why are we all saying “Here’s The Kicker To that?” 😛 Just noticed that…lol
@TheWatcher is right…we should stop fighting, well, I don’t know if we were fighting….just a friendly disagreement. But Henry can’t have both, not really. If he decides to spend weekends with one person, and whole week days with the other, someone’s going to end up being hurt. Regina, more so than Emma, as Regina is still getting used to not having her son around as much, when Emma might be a bit more cooler with it, having only been in the boy’s life for two years. Not to downplay Emma’s hurt or anything, just her two years compared to Regina’s ten….yeah, that’s a major difference.But who knows….when all is said and done! Instead of fighting over who gets to keep Henry, Regina and Emma might be arguing over who needs to keep Henry. Emma and Hook….Regina and Robin….the adults are gonna want some alone time! 😛
—-When Emma negotiates with Regina about who needs to get Henry——
https://twitter.com/Alodis/status/500476946854449153
"If you go as far as you can see...you will then see enough to go even further." - Finn Balor
Again….Emma has no legal rights to Henry Mills. Regina, although few Oncers find her adoption to still be illegal, has those rights because just as there are documents for Emma’s non parental rights, somewhere in Boston, the Agency has documents of Regina adopting Henry. So….by law….Henry is Regina’s son.
So let’s see if I understand this.
Regina, the Evil Queen of another land that is not accessible by normal methods, casts a Dark Curse that creates a town out of thin air and apparently gives everyone “legal” and “real” identification that you would find for any other citizen in America; uses Mr. Gold’s ability to cut through Red Tape and work the system to get herself a child, all under the radar, and that’s all 100% legal and fine.
But when Regina casts the counter curse and grants Emma and Henry memories of the same so called real life, complete with apparently enough money to buy an apartment in New York City, and provides documentation including birth certificate, SS#, doctor records of vaccines, ect–all of which is required for Emma to buy an apartment or have a job or Henry to go to school–that’s not legal and binding and real?
And then Snow and Charming casts some version of the Dark Curse–which is not the same as the original given that everyone remembers who they are and are not separated from their loved ones–and restore SB at least in looks, suddenly the legality of Emma’s rights are washed asunder? Even though the real world was not touched by Snow and Charming’s counter-counter-whaever-the-heck curse, thus why SB could exist simultaneously while Emma and Henry were living in New York–with job, apartment, and schooling?
At this stage in the game, in other words, both Regina and Emma have the same legal rights to Henry, both of which were created by magic and not through any sort of American recognizable legal channels.
"He was a lot of things to me" "The only conclusion was love"
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