FAVORITE AND LEAST FAVORITE MOMENTS from …. 4 X 18 SYMPATHY FOR DE VIL

[Sweets]

Rumple isn’t doing what he is for kicks, he’s doing it to try and prevent himself from becoming a true monster.

The ends don’t justify the means for Rumple or Regina. Rumple made himself into a monster. The fact that now after 300 years he’s like “wait, I don’t want to be all the way evil” does not earn  sympathy from me. And he is still doing evil things to prevent himself from turning all the way evil! That is counter intuitive.

There is one red spot on his heart which is clearly his love for Belle

The assumption being made is that Rumple’s love for Belle is the source of the last bit of good. That is an assumption, not a fact.

[The Swan Princess]

Favorites:

Loved the twist about Cruella’s story. They did a change on their own stories.

I did think that Henry was pretty smart in this ep, cutting the rope on his hands and everything. Also nice that he gets some action.

Mixed:

I kinda understand the makeover thing. The ink was meant for writing a story so when it got spilled over Cruella it changed her outer look to be more like a villain from a story. But still it’s super weird. They could just say she painted it.

Least Favorites:

So Emma is going dark from still being upset about her parents, probably just a day or two after they told her they did a truly bad thing, and killing a women that for her knowledge was going to kill her son? Alright…

Rumple’s heart is going dark so his plan his… To do more bad thing that’ll make his heart go dark so at the end his heart won’t be dark. Kinda reminds me of Ana from wonderland, which also reminds me that WE STILL DON’T KNOW WHAT HAPPENDED TO HER!

You know what I can't continue with the dead people brought back to life list I'm out of space in the signature and now we have an underworld arc this is to much I quit why do you bring so many people back to life OUAT WHHHYYYY

[Slurpeez]

I agree that neither Rumple nor Regina is morally in the clear. But that’s my point. Both Rumple and Regina have used Robin and Belle respectively to get leverage over the other. They’re both using dubious tactics in a bid to outmaneuver the other. The only truly innocent parties here are Belle and Robin, with Rumple and Regina being the ones who’re playing a dangerous game. And it’s uncertain what exactly Belle did or didn’t agree to when Regina approached her for help. That scene was intentionally cut short. We don’t know for certain if Regina said something to convince Belle to give up her heart willingly, or whether Regina magically put Belle into a trance and then stole her heart. Did Belle willingly surrender her heart to the woman who took away her memory and held her hostage for 30 odd years? Did Belle willingly trust Regina not to crush her heart?

"That’s how you know you’ve really got a home. When you leave it, there’s this feeling that you can’t shake. You just miss it." Neal Cassidy

[Sweets]

Did Belle willingly surrender her heart to the woman who took away her memory and held her hostage for 30 odd years? Did Belle trust Regina not to crush her heart?

We’ve already seen Belle this season give Regina the Dark One’s dagger. That is an incredible amount of trust. Belle and Regina have had years between her incarceration and now. Add on the fact that Belle trusted Killian and I can understand why Belle would let Regina take her heart.

I do think Regina did take the opportunity to twist the knife to Rumple with that speech and decided to make Belle forget saying those things to Rumple. That was satisfying to me, but cruel to do to Belle.

 

[WickedRegal]

Sooo…apparently Regina did in fact have Belle’s consent! (It still should have been shown!)

Also of note in this week’s episode: Rumplestiltskin revealed (no, like really revealed) to Belle that his lifetime of misdeeds has turned his heart almost completely black, and that if he loses the last little bit of “red” in it, he will forever lose his ability to love. (Alas, to whom he actually was speaking was Belle as controlled by Regina, since the bookish beauty had allowed the Evil Queen to pluck out her heart in the name of a greater good.)

&

See timestamp: Matt Webb Mitovich says: April 19, 2015 at 6:50 PM No, she had Belle’s consent. (The things you miss by “not watching.”)

http://tvline.com/2015/04/19/once-upon-a-time-season-4-emma-kills-cruella/

 

"If you go as far as you can see...you will then see enough to go even further." - Finn Balor

[PriceofMagic]

And @PriceofMagic, to think that what Regina did was despicable….Rumple knocked her unconscious, threatened her family, her soul mate and his son, held her captive, conspiring with her sister in order to try to black mail Regina into doing his dirty work again, and all she did was try to ensure that he behaved while she was gone, because lord knows NO ONE is safe from Rumple who would kill anyone to complete his work, and even played around with his grandson’s life to get the Author to agree….

Regina could’ve just ASKED Belle to talk to Rumple. The conversation between them was going well until Regina used Belle to say those nasty things. All Regina needed Rumple to do was not alert Zelena to the fact she was coming. Belle keeping Rumple occupied or even just taking the time to sit down and discuss things with him could’ve achieved that goal. Rumple is not Zelena’s biggest fan, he’s not going to go out of his way to save her. In fact if killing Cruella is what turns Emma dark, then Rumple didn’t need Regina at all, which means he doesn’t need Robin as leverage which means he’s not going be contacting Zelena to warn her which means Regina did not need to use Belle at all. She could’ve achieved the same results just by ASKING, no heart snatching required.

And so Regina can’t even try to get Emma to forgive her parents without looking like the bad guy…you know what…

That is completely wrong, and you know what…I just can’t!

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All magic comes with a price!

Keeper of Felix

[PriceofMagic]

The ends don’t justify the means for Rumple or Regina. Rumple made himself into a monster. The fact that now after 300 years he’s like “wait, I don’t want to be all the way evil” does not earn sympathy from me. And he is still doing evil things to prevent himself from turning all the way evil! That is counter intuitive.

But is that not what Regina did? Regina did tons of bad things in her pursuit of vengeance against Snow including: Slaughtering a village, sending numerous children to be eaten by a cannibal witch, enslaving the huntsman and using him as a sex slave, etc. Regina made those decisions herself until one day she decided she didn’t want to be that person any more. Does Regina deserve sympathy? Regina claims that Rumple made her a monster yet Rumple wasn’t around in those examples, those were Regina’s own choices.

I agree that neither Rumple nor Regina is morally in the clear. But that’s my point. Both Rumple and Regina have used Robin and Belle respectively to get leverage over the other. They’re both using dubious tactics in a bid to outmaneuver the other. The only truly innocent parties here are Belle and Robin, with Rumple and Regina being the ones who’re playing a dangerous game. And it’s uncertain what exactly Belle did or didn’t agree to when Regina approached her for help. That scene was intentionally cut short. We don’t know for certain if Regina said something to convince Belle to give up her heart willingly, or whether Regina magically put Belle into a trance and then stole her heart. Did Belle willingly surrender her heart to the woman who took away her memory and held her hostage for 30 odd years? Did Belle willingly trust Regina not to crush her heart?

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I agree. That scene needed to be clearer as to exactly WHAT Belle was consenting to and if she actually consented.

Sooo…apparently Regina did in fact have Belle’s consent! (It still should have been shown!)

Also of note in this week’s episode: Rumplestiltskin revealed (no, like really revealed) to Belle that his lifetime of misdeeds has turned his heart almost completely black, and that if he loses the last little bit of “red” in it, he will forever lose his ability to love. (Alas, to whom he actually was speaking was Belle as controlled by Regina, since the bookish beauty had allowed the Evil Queen to pluck out her heart in the name of a greater good.)

&

See timestamp: Matt Webb Mitovich says: April 19, 2015 at 6:50 PM No, she had Belle’s consent. (The things you miss by “not watching.”)

http://tvline.com/2015/04/19/once-upon-a-time-season-4-emma-kills-cruella/

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How does he know Belle gave consent when it wasn’t shown in the episode or is he assuming Belle gave consent?

All magic comes with a price!

Keeper of Felix

[WickedRegal]

Sweets wrote:

The ends don’t justify the means for Rumple or Regina. Rumple made himself into a monster. The fact that now after 300 years he’s like “wait, I don’t want to be all the way evil” does not earn sympathy from me. And he is still doing evil things to prevent himself from turning all the way evil! That is counter intuitive.

But is that not what Regina did? Regina did tons of bad things in her pursuit of vengeance against Snow including: Slaughtering a village, sending numerous children to be eaten by a cannibal witch, enslaving the huntsman and using him as a sex slave, etc. Regina made those decisions herself until one day she decided she didn’t want to be that person any more. Does Regina deserve sympathy? Regina claims that Rumple made her a monster yet Rumple wasn’t around in those examples, those were Regina’s own choices.

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Umm…Rumplestilskin himself took credit for turning Regina into a monster. He said it himself….”Now I have my monster.” in 2×05 The Doctor.

Is he fully responsible for Regina’s actions, no because those were her own, but his dark influence and Darkness 101 Private Lessons sure did create her into becoming the monster she became. Had he not stopped her from running away on her wedding day, the Evil Queen would have never existed, so those villagers, children, and even Graham would still be alive, so he is partially if not half responsible for the monster her became.

It’s like with a child…if you raise your child to be bad, then the terrible things they do in life are your fault. Now at the end of the day, Regina’s choices were her own, but had circumstances been different (cough) Rumple not even showing up on the wedding day to turn Regina around (cough) then none of the evil would have been committed.

Now we can dance around this Whose To Blame issue again POM, but we both know we’ll still be right back at square one.

And just as Belle giving Regina her consent (which she kinda did) is up in the air, Regina just stealing Belle’s heart is in the air with it.

And because Matt talks with Adam and Eddy every other episode…I’ll take his word for it that Belle gave Regina her consent.

"If you go as far as you can see...you will then see enough to go even further." - Finn Balor

[Sweets]

But is that not what Regina did? Regina did tons of bad things in her pursuit of vengeance against Snow including: Slaughtering a village, sending numerous children to be eaten by a cannibal witch, enslaving the huntsman and using him as a sex slave, etc. Regina made those decisions herself until one day she decided she didn’t want to be that person any more. Does Regina deserve sympathy?

Emphasis. Regina DID those things, whereas Rumple is DOING those things. Right now. Present Day.

You said Regina could have just had Belle talk to Rumple about not threatening Robin. Which….do we really believe he would have gone along with that?

And in the same thread why didn’t Rumple just talk to Regina about going along with his plan to dupe the Wicked Witch? Or you know, telling Robin that his wife is dead and Zelena is Marian? Those are all choices he could have made.

 

 

[PriceofMagic]

Now at the end of the day, Regina’s choices were her own, but had circumstances been different (cough) Rumple not even showing up on the wedding day to turn Regina around (cough) then none of the evil would have been committed.

I’m not so sure. Even without Rumple’s influence, Regina still blamed Snow for Daniel’s death. She still wanted vengeance. So although it might not have been on as large a scale since Regina wouldn’t have the means or the wealth to conduct a decades long vendetta against Snow, I don’t see Regina just “letting go” and riding off into the sunset.

Now we can dance around this Whose To Blame issue again POM, but we both know we’ll still be right back at square one.

Yeah, we’re both stubborn when it comes to Rumple and Regina.

And just as Belle giving Regina her consent (which she kinda did) is up in the air, Regina just stealing Belle’s heart is in the air with it.

See I don’t think Belle did give her consent. Belle asked how she could help but that is not consent. Also the fact that Regina started SQUEEZING Belle’s heart which causes pain also seems like something that would only happen in a lack of consent situation plus the fact Regina told Belle to forget everything. Just seems a bit suspicious.

And because Matt talks with Adam and Eddy every other episode…I’ll take his word for it that Belle gave Regina her consent.

Say hypothetically Belle did consent for Regina to use her heart. What exactly was Belle consenting to? that Regina show Rumple her heart? okay I could buy that, unlikely but plausible. That Regina uses Belle to say some downright nasty things to Rumple like she did? Not so much. It is not in Belle’s nature to be cruel.

All magic comes with a price!

Keeper of Felix

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